F-22 and F-35 superiority

With Russia's recent posturing (old Soviet Union style) and joint excercises with China, these fighters are coming online just in time in my opinion. I'm not saying they'll be needed to shoot down Migs or anything, just that they're a good deterent. Both of these aircraft are far superior to anything currently being fielded by potential enemies of the U.S.

My question is, how long will it be before a Soviet....er...Russian design bureau developes something comparable to the Raptor and Lightning II?

Highly unlikely, Russia can barely afford it's own future weapons research. Now China is a different story. They can afford building a new superior fighter craft and then sell it to Russia.

I don't think China has it in them to produce next generation fighter. The stuff they're producing now is junk. Their best equipment comes from Russia.

reply to post by Vanguard223


Yall had better hope that ChinaWhite doesnt catch wind of this thread, he takes his Chinese and Russian weaponry serious.
Thats fine though, its only taboo to be a patriotic American, all other country's its ok.

I'll say it again then, just for Chinawhite's benefit....CHINESE EQUIPMENT IS JUNK! Their greatest weapon is the mindlessness of thier cannon fodder infantry divisions.

Actually, the generalisation that Chinese weaponry is cheap and built in bulk is a little outdated. Some of their new equipment is very nice indeed, such as the J-10 fighter , the WZ-10 helicopter, new air to air missile etc. It might not be at the Russian standard just yet, but considering how far they have come in a short time, I'd say it won't be long before they are at least comparable in many areas, if not ahead. Their fifth generation fighter is called the XXJ, and IMHO I think it will be quite good.

Well, everyone is entitled to their opinion but I'm not impressed with the J-10. It looks like a crossbred Flanker/Eurofighter but probably doesn't perform as well as either of those aircraft. I'd also be willing to bet the farm that the avionics are inferior to either of those aircraft as well.

Their next generation fighter is not called the "XXJ"...it will be either the J-12 or J-13. The "XX" in "JXX" just means they haven't designated a number to follow the J yet. IMHO, it seems to be a pretty lofty goal to achieve for a country that usually reverse engineers it's equipment from other countries. Without anything to go on, I find it difficult (at best) to believe they can produce a stealth fighter aircraft comparable to the F-22 or F-35....at least not for quite a while.

Until it gets its final designation, it is currently called the XXJ.

Reverse engineering is a great way of learning advanced techniques and technology. The key step is going from mimicing to actually producing indigenous capability. I think the Chinese learned a lot from the J-10, and will apply these lessons. Considering the F-22 will be around 20 years old by the time the XXJ comes into service, I don't think it is a huge leap to suggest that the XXJ won't be too far off the capabilities that the 22 has. Of course, by this time the US will have moved farther ahead with a next generation aircraft.

I somewhat agree, somewhat not...but I'm not here to argue.

That joke you have linked in your signature made me LMAO.

Yep - made me laugh too! I've actually been away from ATS for a while, guess I better go through the thread and see if there are any other entries worthy of being number 1.

The next 20 years are going to be a very interesting time for China. There are some really good open source reports about their military developments (the annual report to Congress is a good example). Their aspirations are certainly big - but can they convert the rhetoric (which doesn't always match reality) into weapon systems of substance?

The F-35 is a fine plane and all, but I don't think it's all it's cracked up to be. It's not F-22 after all. I think it's on the level of the Su-35. The only problem that Russia has is that they haven't been able to mass produce any significant numbers of their advanced hardware. The question isn't if Russia is capable of matching the US, it's really what can they do at the moment. Russia has shown great promise though, after the collapse of the USSR that is. Maybe in a few more decades they will have reached the point that the USSR was at its height only more successfully and will continue to go up.

China is steadily increasing in level of technology and economically as well. These nations are catching up to the US, all the US can do is maintain its curve by matching that which hasn't come out yet. Gotta stay ahead of the game.

Shattered OUT...

reply to post by Vanguard223


Not only Chinawhite, but also me do not agree with your such image. Our Chinese is an introversive race, but that no means we have not superior weapon. If you keep your mind, you will hit wall.

[edit on 23-8-2007 by emile]

Originally posted by Willard856
Considering the F-22 will be around 20 years old by the time the XXJ comes into service, I don't think it is a huge leap to suggest that the XXJ won't be too far off the capabilities that the 22 has.

Come on Willard, consider the upgrades the F-22 will receive in those 20 plus years. Compare the F-15A weapons system of 1980 with the current "Golden Eagles". I say weapons system because an aircraft consists of much more than the airframe. As for the F-35, I believe it will be excellent and will surprise people. Rememebr the days when the F-22 was not very stealthy, could not maneuver, reach Mach 2.0, super cruise past Mach 1.5 or be maintained? I do, wait and see people. Just like the F-16 has been able to remain formidable and current with upgrades so will the F-35. Granted both the F-22's and F-35's edge will degrade over time but consider that both the F-15 and F-16 are still highly capable fighters.

Originally posted by Willard856
Of course, by this time the US will have moved farther ahead with a next generation aircraft.

That is the problem with playing generational catch up...

[edit on 24-8-2007 by WestPoint23]

It will get upgraded, but they will be evolutionary rather than revolutionary. I can't see any reason why the Chinese won't be able to produce something that has a reasonable chance of tackling the 22. But by then, the 22 will be to the next gen capability what the F-16 is to the F-22.

Welcome to ATS vanguard.

As you will see in your time here at ATS, its not all about patriotic americans.
I think we have patriots represented from every continent on this planet except Africa maybe.

The trick is not letting your patriotism get the best of your common sense.
It leads to complacency.
But from what I've watched here at ATS, most get a fine balance between the two after they spend sometime on ATS.
Those who can't, well they just get frustrated and leave eventually. I hope you're one of the former.

First off, its better to refrain from statements like 'chinese equipment is junk' because its doesn't do much for your maturity projection.That's important if you want your posts to count for something in the minds of others.
We're all mature minds here on the Weaps and a/c fora.

I believe that the F-35 and esp the F-22 are phenomenal pieces of equipment.

Having said that, I also believe that there are current operational units around the world that are competitive to the F-35 that we read about today.

The Typhoon, Su-30/35, and even the Rafale(don't shoot me for this ) are some that come to mind. There's enough documentation on these fora that hold information on these comparisions.

Finally when we talk about a competitor to the venerable F-22:

Yes the J-XX and the PAK-FA are the best prospects.
I am not sure what stage of development the J-XX is in, but the PAK-FA is supposed to be in the prototype construction phase with the first flying unit due next year.

reply to post by Vanguard223


I agree about the "cannon fodder" part of your post The human wave tactic has been used many, many times, especially by the Chinese and N. Korean forces.
More recently, the Iranians used this tactic in the war against Iraq, they sent thousands of unarmed people against the Iraqi lines, over and over until the Iraqis ran out of ammo..

Regarding the competition for the F22's and 35, the only thing that would come close are possibly the Su 35s and the Mig 25's.
Currently though, the Russians cannot afford to build enough of these to make a difference in any future war the they may have with the US.
I know that we dont currently have that many built either, but we easily could if the real need for them arose.
I know that the F-22 is really an awesome jet. When it went up against the F-15 during some games, the score was something like F-15 0 and F-22 10 or something like that.

Daedalus3,

First, thanks for the welcome. I look forward to browsing the forum, learning some things and sharing information.

Second, I stand by my opinion that Chinese equipment is junk in comparison to the hardware that western nations are fielding. It has nothing to do with being a "patriotic American". It also says nothing about my maturity level that I chose to phrase it that way. It's my opinion, feel free to dispute it but do me a favor and don't make assumptions about my maturity level based on a word you didn't like. If you do that for me, I'll not assume that you're the condescending type, even though your reply suggests it. Deal?

Kronos,

I'll assume you meant Mig-29's and not Mig-25's. Although I don't think the Su-35 or Mig-29 would be a match for the F-22, I do think that Russia is the only potential enemy of the U.S. capable of fielding an aircraft that could compete with the Raptor in the near future.

As you said, F-15's were no match for F-22's in mock combat. The F-15 pilots didn't even know the Raptors were there and never achieved weapons lock. This has to be a pretty scary concept to any Mig or Sukoi pilots out there. I agree 100% with your assessment of the Russians ability to field a significant number of aircraft. Although, Putin did recently say that Russia would soon become the number one exporter of military aircraft.

Kronos,

I'll assume you meant Mig-29's and not Mig-25's. Although I don't think the Su-35 or Mig-29 would be a match for the F-22, I do think that Russia is the only potential enemy of the U.S. capable of fielding an aircraft that could compete with the Raptor in the near future

Lol, ya i tend to make more typos at 4 am than I normally do.
I did hear what Putin said about his hopes for the Russian Aircraft industry but he has a long ways to go if he wants to even catch up to Boeing and Lockheed.
Even the French Aribus's newest GIANT airliner, lost out to Boeing's new 787 Dreamliner.
Makes no differenct to me though because I dont and wont fly, when i go across country i drive.

Russia is making a very good comeback though. At one time they were just behind Mexico in their economy but they have made a remarkable recovery. I dont know how they did it so quick but knowing the Russians its probably a little shady

Originally posted by Vanguard223
Daedalus3,

First, thanks for the welcome. I look forward to browsing the forum, learning some things and sharing information.

Much obliged!

Second, I stand by my opinion that Chinese equipment is junk in comparison to the hardware that western nations are fielding.

Absolute comparisions hold little value in practical comparisions. Chinese equipment is capable of defending her borders(against any opposing forces) and projecting power(to a certain extent) in her region.

It has nothing to do with being a "patriotic American".
It also says nothing about my maturity level that I chose to phrase it that way. It's my opinion, feel free to dispute it but do me a favor and don't make assumptions about my maturity level based on a word you didn't like.

Let me clarify; IMHO words like 'junk' don't hold much weight in sensible comparisions. After all we arent comparing P-51s and Spaceships.

When you can have a MiG-21 variant that gets a targetting solution on a F-16 variant before the converse happens, then chassis age doesn't have much value anymore. Its the insides that matter.

Agreed the US has those 'innard' advantages too. But the deployability of those in different theatres and geopolitical situations varies.
Absolute judgements never hold true in my experience.

If you do that for me, I'll not assume that you're the condescending type, even though your reply suggests it. Deal?

I apologise if I sounded condescending, it was never my intention.

I'll assume you meant Mig-29's and not Mig-25's. Although I don't think the Su-35 or Mig-29 would be a match for the F-22, I do think that Russia is the only potential enemy of the U.S. capable of fielding an aircraft that could compete with the Raptor in the near future.

The MiG-29 is definitely not a match for the F-22.
Although I tend to agree on the Russian opinion with you as well, I wouldn't write the chinese off. They're always full of surprises.

..This has to be a pretty scary concept to any Mig or Sukoi pilots out there...

Will I wouldn't say scary; inspiring yes.. but not scary.
Again it depends a lot on C4ISR variables.

Originally posted by Vanguard223
My question is, how long will it be before a Soviet....er...Russian design bureau developes something comparable to the Raptor and Lightning II?

Later next year apparently... if what the various quotes attributed to different Russian airforce generals are accurate.

Probably more like 2010 or thereabouts.