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Originally posted by Sri Oracle
One is set off on a visual experience in which you come to terms absolutely with the negative consequences of your bad habits. To call such an OOBE a cheap parlor trick is short sighted; especially coming from our pharmacological society.
Originally posted by The Vagabond
I have no problem with medication, but that's a tangental issue.
it is a question of means rather than ends.
The point is that you are not actually experiencing anything beyond the bounds of yourself, which makes it distinct from a true Out Of Body Experience.
Names and forms are like bangles and bracelets, Vishnu (God) is like gold [that constitutes the bangles and bracelets]
The yogi endowed with complete enlightenment sees, through the eye of Knowledge, the entire univers in his own Self and regards everything as the Self and nothing else.
Knowledge does not come from within the self however, so an experience mimicing an OOBE which does not actually remove you from your physical limitations, but instead opens you to alternative perceptions of things your already know, or are being taught within your physical limitations.
It is only because of ignorance that the Self appears to be finite. When ignorance is destroyed, the Self, which does not admit of any multiplicity whatsoever truly reveals Itself by Itself.
My point is not that exercises intended to give insight are inferior to exercises intended to give knowledge, but merely that they are separate. This is a cautionary point.
The fact that an OOBE can be immitated by use of mind-altering substances does not mean that one can actually attain knowledge as is purportedly possible through OOBEs by using mind-altering substances.
As for the advice that stoneage nomads offer us on the matter, in Genesis and elsewhere, I am inclined to rely on sources with better track records.
If there is a God, he is also responsible for the creation of bull dung and rattlesnake venom, neither of which can boast a very successful clinical history.
but unless you can present me with SWIY (Someone Who Isn't You)
We could go on at great length regarding spiritual reality, but I place my interest in what can be measured because that's what ultimately has an impact.
This is inherent in the discussion of the use of chemicals- it is a physical and not a spiritual catalyst which initates your spiritual experience.
Asprin does not give you a hallucination of non-pain, but infact blocks the perception of pain- that is to say, it disrupts the data generated in your brain by external an external stimulus. This can be a good or bad thing. In moderation, it may better adjust that information to its purpose- you have recieved the understanding that something is wrong and now you don't need it bothering you while you're trying to take part in the world. But in excess, it will remove you from the world- if you dull pain too much, you can cause great damage to yourself.
By way of analogy, you are essentially claiming that the image depicted by a broken television, or by a television suffering severe interference, is as valid as that depicted by a working television.  You have placed a barrier between yourself and society by placing your faith in a distorted or wholly unwarranted perception, and if anything, you have gone deeper within yourself, not beyond yourself.
So, if I were going to have an OOBE (I've tried without success)
I think that inducing the illusion is taking a step out of reality rather than into it, and is inherently dangerous.
Or in a nutshell, "drugs are bad, mmmkay?"
I would be very attentive about my proximity to that line, because there is a right and a wrong way to discuss these matters regardless of which side you take.
Both Ehrsson and another research team... used video cameras and virtual reality goggles to show volunteers images of their own bodies from the perspective of someone behind them. The researchers also touched the volunteers’ bodies, both physically and virtually.
The volunteers in Ehrsson’s study viewed images recorded by the cameras through their headsets. In Blanke and colleagues’ study, the video was converted into holograph-like computer simulations.
Originally posted by The Vagabond
It would seem that our perspectives are so fundamentally different that in certain aspects we will have to resign ourselves to disagreement.
... are inextricably tied to matters of spirituality. We each have our views based on certain underlying assumptions, and while each is well supported within its own context, each would crumble if the foundational assumption were incorrect...
My argument is that because I am capable of being consistently and grievously incorrect when doing this, in direct proportion to my prior knowledge of the subject, that I am not infact transcending myself, but am perhaps, at best, transcending time through recall of events where I was in a position to see the subject acting in a similar manner. In otherwords, I am gaining nothing from outside myself in real time, but am turning inwards, entirely reliant on my own limited knowledge.
Aristotle said truth comes in 4 forms
1) Scientific reasoning.
2) Practical reasoning.
3) Philosophical reasoning.
4) Intuitive reasoning.
Of these , he maintained that only intuitive reasoning revealed Universal Truths because it was the direct apprehension of truth, free from faulty logic or false reasoning.
[ 3. Knowledge of the Third Kind, Intuition (direct, non-inferential knowledge)]
Besides these two kinds of knowledge, there is, as I will hereafter show, a third kind of knowledge, which we will call intuition. This kind of knowledge proceeds from an adequate idea of the absolute essence of certain attributes of God to the adequate knowledge of the essence of things.
If I've never played chess with the person in question, I can make a mistake.
An assumption is a proposition that is taken for granted, in other words, that is treated for the sake of a given discussion as if it were known to be true.
Intuition [is the] ability to sense or know immediately without reasoning.
Similarly in the car example, wish as I may and curse as I might, I can't transcend my lack of experience.
Finally, I will say that I am greatly amused by your resourcefulness in finding virtue to dung and venom
I think you'd be quite a sight to see in the debate forum- you should definately join the next tournament if you are interested and have time.
The day that I choose those substances over meditation will be the day I disinfect my hands with dung instead of soap before sitting down to a meal.
Originally posted by Sri OracleI believe the paradigms we approach OOBE from are:
Vagabond: OOBE requires intense mediation and is not an accurate source of data unless you are a skilled practictioner and the OOBE was "naturally" induced.
The first time I tried to pitch a baseball I was lucky if I could throw a strike from the pitchers mound.