It's getting worse

Sorry but I do not agree with the initial proposition.

I do not see that "it's getting worse".

Bad things periodically happen, of course, but by any rational measure we are a relatively safe and law-abiding country.

Neither are the Police 'soft' or handicapped by laws (and raising human rights legislation as if that is a serious impediment to Police work is absurd......the rest of Europe has it too and they do not make such foolish tabloid claims - and it generally is a little hobby-horse of the right-wing anti-EU media in the UK......despite the European Convention on Human Rights not being an 'EU creation').

The powers of the British Police have developed enormously across the last 10 years, under all CJA Acts for a start, as well as them receiving significant additional funding and training.

Thankfully we have an independent justice system, one that doesn’t bend and flex around media stories in general, however sad and regretable, in the press.
That kind of 'populist' & 'political justice' would be a regressive disaster for this country.

Our justice system treats every case by it’s merit, and while there are sometimes absurd results and occassional incompetencies, these are over reported and, IMO, dwelt upon in the most appallingly crass and ghoulish manner.

There isn’t a good relationship between the CPS and the police service, never has been (and that may not be a bad thing either on balance), but on the whole we can be proud of our justice system.

IMO it ought not be used every time as a stick to beat the Police and Government everytime something goes wrong.

Unfortunatlely ...It is getting worse!
We could all live with our "heads in the the sand", but some of us dont.
We could all look at life through "rose coloured glasses" but we dont.

We can never erradicate violence completely, i accept that.
What i will never accept though is :
Children murdering children, with knives and guns on an evermore regular basis, just makes the crime even worse.
Offenders being let out early.
Offenders claiming "human rights issues" as soon as something dosent go their way.
Police stations that close at 7pm (yes there are two in my area that do this) even though crime has risen in my area in the last 3yrs.
local "bobbies" being taken off of walking beats.
Hospital A&E departments being closed down (again the two biggest in my area have closed and merged into one new one , which is an absolute nightmare), and again when violent crime is on the increase!
The availability of guns to these young kids.

But then again we are governed by the happy clappy brigade who will probably prescribe a two week course in wind chime/dream catcher making (inside a rainbow coloured tee-pee.)

There is absolutley NO detterant for the scum that commit these crimes, what we need is another Mr Pierrepoint
en.wikipedia.org...

we need tougher sentences and im not talking about making a point against the OAP who forgot to pay their council tax on time, coz we all know that the system loves to pick on the easy prey!
Im talking about the scum who carry guns, knives, and are involved in violent crime!!

Rhys Jones R.I.P. LITTLE FELLA

I was just reading this in regards to the boys found guilty of manslaughter and violent disorder.

If you are unaware of the case you can find out a little more here

This is from Daily Mail

At the start of the trial he wore the blazer of the junior school he had occassionally attended.

By it's end, he was back in his hooded top, tracksuit and trainers. But any pretense of toughness was swept away by his tears.

The boy who became a killer at the age of ten has never known the man who fathered him and his older brother.

His unemployed mother, now 37, married a different man a few years ago and the boys live with them in a scruffy terraced home in Slade Green near Erith, Kent.

Maybe ubermunch could tell us a little more about this area if he reads this and feels like he could share something.

The article goes on to paint the white trash background of the family describing the mother as attending court...

...wearing vest tops and flipflops and looking tired, with unkempt hair.

I guess this portrayal of poor white trash and the disasterous outcome of bad parenting mixed with social exclusion and division is very much in the vein of what I preaching.

The boys beside him in the docks were all born to unmarried parents.

Their mothers were typically in their early 20s, though one was just 18.

how old was she when she became a mother?

Those that did work had jobs in shops and restaurants. Those fathers that are known also had basic jobs - catering, building work and tyre fitting.

The way the scene is being painted here is that the people who do these sorts of jobs are borderline useless or just "low class". This is what I was saying about how the divide has been ingraved into our society. It's supposed to serve as inspiration to the borderline useless. We are supposed the look at the elite and wish we could be them.

They may be better educated and have more resources at hand but they are still the same flawed creatures as us. The divide is created in the environment, which in turn is created by our government. I'm not saying that they can just wave a magic wand and make it all better, but I do not believe the government are even accepting that the divide is a thing that needs fixing.

Graffiti has been daubed on many of the homes in the area - typically £360-a-month housing association properties.

£360-a-month = Homes for poor families

Society begins to whisper in the wings..."I don't want a £360-a-month in our nice neighbourhood?"..."I don't want my kid playing with the child from a £360-a-month!" So society deems it acceptable to create "areas" where a number of £360-a-month's can be set up. It seems logical that if the Homeowners would rather mix with other Homeowners that surely £360-a-month's would rather socialise with other £360-a-month's...Right?

And so the divide is widened. Terraced Ghetto's or Slums are created. The thing that's most interesting about this crime is the act of violence itself. A bunch of poor youths attacking a retired draughtsman while he played a makeshift game of cricket (still considered by many as a middle and upper class pursuit) in the tennis courts (another middle/upper class pursuit) with his 17 year old son. The 67 year old attempts to stand up to these disrespectful youths and ends up getting pelted with missiles until he suffers from a fatal heart attack.

Could that be an allegory or the way our society will tear itself apart? Am I being a liittle over dramatic?

Who knows but it's all good fun and games really.


[edit on 1-9-2007 by surrender_dorothy]

This is from Daily Mail


At the start of the trial he wore the blazer of the junior school he had occassionally attended.

By it's end, he was back in his hooded top, tracksuit and trainers. But any pretense of toughness was swept away by his tears.

The boy who became a killer at the age of ten has never known the man who fathered him and his older brother.

His unemployed mother, now 37, married a different man a few years ago and the boys live with them in a scruffy terraced home in Slade Green near Erith, Kent.

Maybe ubermunch could tell us a little more about this area if he reads this and feels like he could share something.

The article goes on to paint the white trash background of the family describing the mother as attending court...

...wearing vest tops and flipflops and looking tired, with unkempt hair.


I guess this portrayal of poor white trash and the disasterous outcome of bad parenting mixed with social exclusion and division is very much in the vein of what I preaching.

Difficult for me to be completely objective as I live in the area but yes the place has always had a reputation for being on the rough side, it used to be much more run down but there has been massive regeneration. There’s also been a high influx of immigrants into the place but they’re very seldom connected to any crime or anti social behaviour. Traditionally it has always been a dumping ground for single mothers, the work shy etc but there are no ghetto’s as such, mixed housing, private and rented go alongside each other and definitely, despite it’s earlier reputation, it has got much, much worse over the past fifteen years but then so has everywhere else.

The boys beside him in the docks were all born to unmarried parents.

Their mothers were typically in their early 20s, though one was just 18.how old was she when she became a mother?


Those that did work had jobs in shops and restaurants. Those fathers that are known also had basic jobs - catering, building work and tyre fitting.

The way the scene is being painted here is that the people who do these sorts of jobs are borderline useless or just "low class". This is what I was saying about how the divide has been ingraved into our society. It's supposed to serve as inspiration to the borderline useless. We are supposed the look at the elite and wish we could be them.

Most people in the area work. Semi skilled or unskilled. There are some who’ve turned welfare dependency into an art form and do so well at it it’s become a generational aspiration. Talk to most of the ’low class’ people in the area and they’re not going to be exactly empathising with this lot, nor their delinquent offspring. They say the trouble stems from the same root cause, no policing except reactive and usually too late, no authority and little in the way of accountability for wrong doing

Graffiti has been daubed on many of the homes in the area - typically £360-a-month housing association properties.

£360-a-month = Homes for poor families

Society begins to whisper in the wings..."I don't want a £360-a-month in our nice neighbourhood?"..."I don't want my kid playing with the child from a £360-a-month!" So society deems it acceptable to create "areas" where a number of £360-a-month's can be set up. It seems logical that if the Homeowners would rather mix with other Homeowners that surely £360-a-month's would rather socialise with other £360-a-month's...Right?

Actually because people live alongside each other and their kids attend the same schools etc it’s kind of difficult to enforce those boundaries. If people don’t want their children mixing with a certain type, it’s far more likely to be because he’s violent and out of control rather than from a housing association ditto for the families too. We don’t get the choice all new builds are required to provide for social housing now. Housing wise the area is very mixed and plenty of housing association tenants are fine decent people.

And so the divide is widened. Terraced Ghetto's or Slums are created. The thing that's most interesting about this crime is the act of violence itself. A bunch of poor youths attacking a retired draughtsman while he played a makeshift game of cricket (still considered by many as a middle and upper class pursuit) in the tennis courts (another middle/upper class pursuit) with his 17 year old son. The 67 year old attempts to stand up to these disrespectful youths and ends up getting pelted with missiles until he suffers from a fatal heart attack.

There really are no ghettoes and slums in the area, graffiti is no worse than anywhere else and cynical moi but I feel the main reason he was attacked was because they were a big group and there were only two of them and these kids were looking to cause trouble. They’d been causing trouble earlier and the police had already been called from what I can gather but as usual they turn up then go away. Merely adding to these youths world view that they can do pretty much what they want.

Me personally, from rubbing up against these types of people on a daily basis I’d say a huge part of the social exclusion is from them deliberately distancing themselves from their communities and acting above the law and above any concern for those around them, it‘s not they who live in a world of squalor and misery their neighbours do. And even those families who try to instill some kind of values are constantly undermined by the lack of support from police, from the schools, from the local authority.

Non accountability has been the root cause of this flourishing of chav culture not some Dickensian level of poverty and degradation. I’m sorry it’s just not like that around here. I'm NOT trying to disprove a link between poverty, exclusion etc with crime and anti social behaviour, I believe they all have a part to play but at this level it's far more influenced by social trends than many are willing to acknowledge.

I believe the media is behind this change in culture.
The more these 'yobs' are objectified in the news the more we seperate ourselves from them in society and make them bitter.
I'm 16 years old and my mother tells me not to look at people at bus stops for fear of me being stabbed.
I don't think the prison system or policing is to blame, # them, we have to look after our own working class people to look after. It is up to us to sort this out.
These youths feel alienated and it is our fault. Show them some respect and love and you might just make their day.
A little love can change a lot.

And can I just remind people that while we tie ourselves in knots thrashing out some totally foolproof system that will work alway in the best interest of these offebding sacred cows....sorry youths innocent people continue to be kicked to death on the streets of the UK by youths....for fun.