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It's getting worse

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posted on Aug, 24 2007 @ 12:10 PM
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Wonder how long those two suspects will get for this horrendouse murder of an innocent child. Either they get life, or this country has become one off the biggest jokes in the world. (And not let out 10 years later for good behaviour), as what happened with the Jamie Bulger Killers.

Seeing that 11 yr old's friends and his parents yesterday on the news describing what had happened was heartbreaking.

But sadly it is things like this that happen before something is done about it. Nowadays if a kid wants a gun they just go underground to get one.

I was actually talking to a few friends yesterday,, while watching this on the news, and we all agreed this country (UK) is going to hell. And something needs to be done.




posted on Aug, 24 2007 @ 12:41 PM
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Originally posted by ubermunche
Ste I'm not against these initiatives at all but to echo more serotonin we can have all the laws and pass new ones but if some judges mindset is to go easy on them because they're disadvantaged we don't move on.


The question you need to ask, then, is how do you get judges to toughen up sentences? It throws up a host of issues, including how independent our supposedly independent judiciary really is if the government can start interfering with sentencing. I know where you're coming from on this one... some of the sentences we've discussed in previous threads seem mad when compared with the crime.

As for your bit about gangs and general violent behaviour in individuals, I take your point on that one. I was focusing on gangs when we don't even know whether a gang was involved. Still, I think my comments can be extended to violent behaviour generally.



posted on Aug, 24 2007 @ 03:13 PM
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Originally posted by Ste2652

The question you need to ask, then, is how do you get judges to toughen up sentences? It throws up a host of issues, including how independent our supposedly independent judiciary really is if the government can start interfering with sentencing. I know where you're coming from on this one... some of the sentences we've discussed in previous threads seem mad when compared with the crime.



An important issue admittedly but I think the general feeling is that although we need to strive to keep an independent justice system, we also have to acknowledge that principally that system should be working for the good of society as a whole rather than becoming the indulgence of the judge or magistrate's political beliefs, left or right. If it's there to serve a community it can't be completely independent as it's reflecting-or should be- their best interests.

And for the naysayers, yes build more prisons, if I'm going to get screwed by the taxman at least let it be working in my favour for a change.



posted on Aug, 25 2007 @ 11:07 AM
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It's obvious to me that not one of you's in this thread is realising the catastrophic rise in crime recently that will continue to rise and get more horrendous.

Build more prisons...longer sentences...bring back corporal punishment...all of your suggestions have completely missed the point. Why has gang culture become more popular recently? Most of you will spew the same rubbish that the media have fed you. Rappers and violent video games are bad influences.

Idiots. The popularity of violent video games and rappers going on about gang culture is a sign of the changing attitudes of the youth. You cannot force children to listen to something or to play violent games. They do it because they want to.

Build more prisons...more prison wardens...hefty tax increases...crime continues to rise because the core problem has not been dealt with...build more prisons...more prison staff...more tax increases...that seems like a good way to deal with it. good one ubermunch.

Corperal punishment returns...parents are returned the right to discipline their children...watch the rise in court cases dealing with domestic and school violence...wasting the time of the courts and slowing down the legal process...another great idea.

A while ago, some member of this website suggested that a licence should need to be obtained for people to breed. That seems a little bit extreme but I'd bet that it would be a good measure in decreasing the amount of street criminals and violent gangs.

Still none of you can see this and in fifty years...if you get that long...your society will crumble as it should. Build more prisons and deal out tougher sentences...hell, while your at it why not bring in capital punishment. Lets execute people who don't do what their told...slap yourselves on the back for making the effort to fight crime. Aren't you all heroes.

All the while the rats are gathering in the walls and soon you be unable stand it any longer...you'll realise that the wonderful home you've been building for all these years is infested and there's nothing you can do.


[edit on 25-8-2007 by surrender_dorothy]



posted on Aug, 25 2007 @ 01:08 PM
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Ok Dotty you tell us the solution, apart from selective breeding which seems to be the only suggestion you've shown any personal approval of, what IS the answer.


And for the record I didn't say building more prisons etc would be the catch all answer, we also need community imitiatives, input into our young people etc etc which I think has been made clear in my posts but for the ones who are still going to continue acting like rabid dogs prison and harsh sentences is the bottom line.

But I digress what's the answer, we're all waiting.

[edit on 25-8-2007 by ubermunche]



posted on Aug, 25 2007 @ 02:27 PM
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I thought I made my point in my second post on the first page.

Maybe you missed the point or I didn't make it clear enough. The problem lies in inequality. The divide. The rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer.

Drugs of all sorts have become commonplace in the UK. This is a major problem. But I think its naive to expect people to live without drugs when life is so unbearable without them. The rich take drugs because they have no worries and highly paid doctors in case something goes wrong. The poor take drugs because they don't want to think about their worries and don't care if something goes wrong.

The sole root of drug taking epidemic lies in our societies emphasis on material gain. For the rich material gain is just a bit of fun. This is what they do. They buy houses, flash cars, fancy designer clothes, etc. For the poor this is a struggle. They struggle to pay rent or to afford the payments on their mortgage. They struggle to buy that new plasma screen TV. Everything is a struggle. But for the the youth this is becoming a joke. They look at their elders struggle and they ask what is it all for? A three bedroom box with a TV? They realise it's a waste of time and they turn to drugs.

This has created a massive market for drug dealing. As we all know selling drugs is illegal and therefore exists as an underworld. An underworld not accepted by society but a product of it. I can't be bothered to go into the whole structure and hierarchy of drug dealing but anybody that has a basic idea of how it works will realise that nearly everybody is involved.

This underworld is what inspires the youngsters. How many working class or white trash kids do you know of that have left that life behind and gone on to become a doctor or a lawyer(two professions that I personally despise but they make a great deal of money). How many got deep into the underworld of drug dealing and made a fortune?

The underworld doesn't require a skill. Everyone knows that work for unskilled people, somewhat due to a non-existant immigration control but not solely, is evaporating in the UK. The poor get sent to schools that fail their students. So what happens to the unskilled? How are all the unskilled going to afford that three bedroom box and TV?

Hell, this is all just my opinion. I happen to be part of the drug abusing, unskilled white trash that fuels this underworld. Hence my negative view of the future. I hope I'm wrong about all this because nothings going to change. Still I feel better after that rant.


[edit on 25-8-2007 by surrender_dorothy]



posted on Aug, 25 2007 @ 04:25 PM
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reply to post by ubermunche
 


Speaking as another American, I can tell you right here that "tough on crime" doesn't work. What it does do is create career criminals and turn prisons into schools for criminal behavior. Our nation has been systematically upping the penalties for criminal behavior for the last half of the century, and crime only increases. It's ineffective at best, and counter-productive at worst.

There needs to be more focus on prevention, and less on punishment. Anti-poverty efforts, after-school programs, neighborhood watches... these things actually DO work, if actual effort is put into them.

When you get "tough on crime", all you're really doing is indulging your inner sadist by maintaining the conditions that create criminals while devising newer, meaner ways to treat them.



posted on Aug, 25 2007 @ 07:24 PM
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reply to post by surrender_dorothy
 

Is this increase in crime current? Or has it been slowly snowballing?

I am wondering if it has anything to do with the war?



posted on Aug, 26 2007 @ 04:32 AM
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reply to post by nixie_nox
 


violent crime has been increasing fairly steeply over the last five or six years.

I doubt the war has had anything to do with it.



posted on Aug, 26 2007 @ 08:27 AM
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reply to post by The Walking Fox
 


But walking Fox in the UK it's arguable to say we have seen a complete opposite, not just with crime but with regards social boundaries too. The more liberal the views and practices have become both within the justice system and other institutions the more prevelant crime (certain types at least) and anti social behaviour have become to a point where it's now eroding society. I'll stress again I don't think there is one overall solution to this but many differing strands but taking a political stance against 'punishment' only stalls the process and it continues to go round in cirlcles with people holding out for years and years for the latest fashionable approach to start working when it never does. You have to start including those unfashionable old style ideals too, fear of the consequences, enforcement because whether or not you like it they are what's going to underpin any approach to bringing this problem under control. And as long as it's done with common sense and judiciously it's not appealing to my inner sadist (why use such neo liberla cant in the first place?) it's appealing to my sense of justice, and security.



posted on Aug, 26 2007 @ 01:47 PM
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Originally posted by surrender_dorothy
reply to post by nixie_nox
 


violent crime has been increasing fairly steeply over the last five or six years.

I doubt the war has had anything to do with it.




It was just a thought. Just trying to help you folks out. You guys are ruining my vision of your sophisticated and and hospitable society.



posted on Aug, 26 2007 @ 01:49 PM
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I thought I made my point in my second post on the first page.

Maybe you missed the point or I didn't make it clear enough. The problem lies in inequality. The divide. The rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer


The poverty of today, at least in the western world is nowhere near as bad as it was 60, 50, even 30 years ago. You didn’t have people being kicked to death on a regular basis then though, or off their faces and refusing to work.


Drugs of all sorts have become commonplace in the UK. This is a major problem. But I think its naive to expect people to live without drugs when life is so unbearable without them. The rich take drugs because they have no worries and highly paid doctors in case something goes wrong. The poor take drugs because they don't want to think about their worries and don't care if something goes wrong.


What poor are we talking about. The poor who still get up and go out to earn their money and contribute to society or is it, as I suspect, the poor who’s whole ethos has been to opt out, opt out of work, responsibility, deceny, respect for others and themselves. They might take drugs to forget but it’s arguable whether the drugs brought them to that point in the first place. But let’s blame it all on society boo hoo feel sorry for me while I terrorise my neighbourhood. BS


Everything is a struggle. But for the the youth this is becoming a joke. They look at their elders struggle and they ask what is it all for? A three bedroom box with a TV? They realise it's a waste of time and they turn to drugs.


And how long will the ‘yoof’ think it’s a joke for when all those stupid poor working people they despise copy their example and down tools and there’s no one to serve their McDonalds up, or process their dole cheques, or stock the shelves in the supermarket, or stitch their new trainers, or collect the rubbish, or run the trains/buses etc etc. The joke stops being funny when it starts affecting you doesn’t it. Just self serving garbage for the weak, lazy and irresponsible.


This has created a massive market for drug dealing. As we all know selling drugs is illegal and therefore exists as an underworld. An underworld not accepted by society but a product of it. I can't be bothered to go into the whole structure and hierarchy of drug dealing but anybody that has a basic idea of how it works will realise that nearly everybody is involved.


So if we legalised drugs, all these Burberry wearing, bling and gun toting chavs and gansta’s hanging on the street corners would put on suits, get up early and go to work for the local (now legitimate) drug overlord would they and become respectable citizens. Or would they just find some other niche to corner which meant not having to buy into social responsibility where they could continue to be a blight instead.


The underworld doesn't require a skill. Everyone knows that work for unskilled people, somewhat due to a non-existant immigration control but not solely, is evaporating in the UK. The poor get sent to schools that fail their students. So what happens to the unskilled? How are all the unskilled going to afford that three bedroom box and TV?


But, as you’ve already pointed out, the youth of today (supposedly) reject the idea of working for a living, so what’s the point if laying on a better education system if they’re not going to use it to buy their 3 bed box houses.


Hell, this is all just my opinion. I happen to be part of the drug abusing, unskilled white trash that fuels this underworld. Hence my negative view of the future.


Believe me that comment will come back to bite you on the a**e one day if everyone ends up as negative and defeatist as you seem to be..





[edit on 26-8-2007 by ubermunche]

[edit on 26-8-2007 by ubermunche]



posted on Aug, 26 2007 @ 02:11 PM
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reply to post by ubermunche
 


Who said don't punish criminal behavior? Of course you punish it. But going crazy with punishment doesn't do anything except pack your prisons full. Of course, here in the states our prisons are privately owned so "tough on crime" is more of a business policy than a social paradigm...


The old saying is that an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. So what are you Brits doing to prevent? From my understanding (flawed though it probably is) this "yob culture" you're talking about seems to be a case of parents sitting on their asses and neighbors going "not my problem."



posted on Aug, 26 2007 @ 02:39 PM
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Originally posted by The Walking Fox
The old saying is that an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. So what are you Brits doing to prevent? From my understanding (flawed though it probably is) this "yob culture" you're talking about seems to be a case of parents sitting on their asses and neighbors going "not my problem."


Basically, yes. That is the problem. parents who do not care, coupled with parents who, whilst they might well care alot, are hamstrung by Government as to how to discipline their child. I, personally, don't go for the PC crap that you "talk" to your kids. There is no reasoning with small people. A good slap round the arse keeps them in line.

By the time kids get to teenage years, they are ill disciplined already.

Couple this with lack of anything to do, peer pressure to be "cool" which makes them not do well in school and popular culture making it seem like everyone can be rich and famous with apparently little or no work, when they cannot (this in itself was brought up by Prince Charles and he was blasted for it in the media, when he is right), and you have a potent mix of dissatisfied Youth who'll do anything for a "laugh".

[edit on 26/8/07 by stumason]



posted on Aug, 26 2007 @ 04:01 PM
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reply to post by stumason
 


Don't give me that "gub'mint is the debbil" nonsense, please.
All parents can swat their kids across the butt, deny them dinner, ground them to their rooms, whatever. If a social worker chooses to get involved, that's a headache sure - but a hassle and headache is no reason to let your kids behave like a troupe of angry chimpanzees. Blaming the government or, as some here are doing, "liberals" is just a game of passing the blame.

The kids have nothing to do? Sounds about right. Thus my earlier post's mention of after-school activities. If things are really that bad, a curfew wouldn't be a terrible idea, either - for all ages, as, after a little reading it seems adults are being pretty asinine as well. Though I don't agree with the notion of coming up with over-the-top legal punishments, I see nothing wrong with the cops dragging people off to the drunk tank and dropping a fine on them for disorderly conduct - Some sixteen year-old rowdy wants to get blasted and start trouble, he can either break open his piggy bank, or enjoy three months community service

There are of course economic and educational factors in this as well. I can't imagine that this is that huge of a problem in areas with lots of jobs to be had...



posted on Aug, 26 2007 @ 05:13 PM
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Originally posted by The Walking Fox
Don't give me that "gub'mint is the debbil" nonsense, please.
All parents can swat their kids across the butt, deny them dinner, ground them to their rooms, whatever. If a social worker chooses to get involved, that's a headache sure - but a hassle and headache is no reason to let your kids behave like a troupe of angry chimpanzees. Blaming the government or, as some here are doing, "liberals" is just a game of passing the blame.


Hmm, not dealt with UK Social Workers then, I assume? They're more than a headache....

Once a kid gets old enough to know it's "Human Rights", they will go running to Social Services the moment they feel hard done by.

My own sister did it.

She was a thieving, lying, horrible little cow when she was a teenager and if either of my parents even looked at her funny, she would be straight down the social and my parents would be summoned to "explain" their actions. Eventually, she got herself put into care, not that my mum and dad ever did anything to her that would be construed as abuse, but she played the system.

Problem is, most social workers are the uber-soft, touchy feely types who seem to think any sort of punishment is tantamount to ripping your childs head off and crapping down the hole. Your supposed to "reason" with misbehaving kids, whether they be 4 or 14... As if....

With the Government saying that parents are allowed "reasonable chastisement", whatever the hell that means, they are sitting on the fence and leaving the door wide open to exactly what constitutes "reasonable chastisement", same as with self defence in the UK. Quite often, it gets interpreted way to softly and leaves no room to do anything.

Trust me, seen 'em and dealt with 'em.



posted on Aug, 27 2007 @ 02:43 AM
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Walking Fox, with the greatest respect you do not have experience of the minefield that is the human rights business nor the overbearing adherance to PC thinking that burdens most of our institutions at present in the UK, in fact your suggestion of drunk tanks and fines would have some over here accusing you of crimes against humanity to even bring up such idea.

And I never said go crazy with the punishment either lets just have some appropriate punishments rather than the naughty corner initiatives that neo liberals think are progressive and enlightened and require a subscription to rose tinted lens ltd before convincing any of us they're working.

Stu Mason is right, kids, especially teenagers can be nasty little b***ards if they're allowed to be, simply appealing to there better nature doesn't often work and once they've learnt to play the system....

I'll reiterate I'm all for input, parental responsibility, community involvement etc but if there is not a line drawn where accountability is enforced when it's stepped over they simply laugh and do as they please.



posted on Aug, 27 2007 @ 09:32 AM
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Originally posted by ubermunche

What poor are we talking about. The poor who still get up and go out to earn their money and contribute to society or is it, as I suspect, the poor who’s whole ethos has been to opt out, opt out of work, responsibility, deceny, respect for others and themselves. They might take drugs to forget but it’s arguable whether the drugs brought them to that point in the first place. But let’s blame it all on society boo hoo feel sorry for me while I terrorise my neighbourhood. BS


I think you'll find, as it is in my experience, both. I'm an unskilled factory operative and many, not all, of my colleagues take drugs. They have no ambition and have already resigned themselves to a life of laboour and struggle. Perhaps it's time that the unskilled started getting a decent wage. I''m no communist but I think that anybody who plays their part in society ought to be treated equally. There it is. My point. Equality.



And how long will the ‘yoof’ think it’s a joke for when all those stupid poor working people they despise copy their example and down tools and there’s no one to serve their McDonalds up, or process their dole cheques, or stock the shelves in the supermarket, or stitch their new trainers, or collect the rubbish, or run the trains/buses etc etc. The joke stops being funny when it starts affecting you doesn’t it. Just self serving garbage for the weak, lazy and irresponsible.


Down tools. What a lovely term. Sure it will affect the poor mostly but it will also affect the rich. It will create havoc in society and maybe that's just whats needed to bring attention to this lack of equality. I for one, and I'm probably alone on this, would be happy to sacrifice even my life if I truly thought some good might come of it. Most of humanity does not feel the same way and this is what creates the divide. Bill Gates and some other rich ^£%*&$# could probably single handedly feed and educate an entire third world nation. But they don't.


So if we legalised drugs, all these Burberry wearing, bling and gun toting chavs and gansta’s hanging on the street corners would put on suits, get up early and go to work for the local (now legitimate) drug overlord would they and become respectable citizens. Or would they just find some other niche to corner which meant not having to buy into social responsibility where they could continue to be a blight instead.


Seems like I'm not the only negative nelly in this thread. I think that sensible leglisation of drugs would eradicate a large section of the criminal underworld. It would create more jobs and probably boost the economy. I'm also for legalisation of prostition, but that sort of forward thinking should probably be left for another time.


as you’ve already pointed out, the youth of today (supposedly) reject the idea of working for a living, so what’s the point if laying on a better education system if they’re not going to use it to buy their 3 bed box houses.


Perhaps you are unable to share my vision of a utopia. A world without divide. A world where one guy might be designing complex computer programs or components for energy efficient engines but he earns about the same as the person who sells him his milk in the mornings. In that world, I believe, the cynicism that is now ingraved in the mindset of the youth will be extinct. You will know then that every moment you are at work you are being appreciated. Because without the lower echelons of society, our society would not be so great. But it's the people in the upper echelons who are being rewarded. This is inequality. This is my point.



Believe me that comment will come back to bite you on the a**e one day if everyone ends up as negative and defeatist as you seem to be..


I'm not defeated yet, but many of my peers have been. I still have hope that one day things will be as they should be. I hope that one day, no matter how intelligent we are, how skilled we are, what we look like or what we believe, we are all treated equally.

Maybe I'm naive or stupid but I still have a small amount of faith in humanity's will to do what's right.


[edit on 27-8-2007 by surrender_dorothy]



posted on Aug, 27 2007 @ 09:35 AM
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Originally posted by nixie_nox


It was just a thought. Just trying to help you folks out. You guys are ruining my vision of your sophisticated and and hospitable society.





posted on Aug, 27 2007 @ 11:09 AM
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I think you'll find, as it is in my experience, both. I'm an unskilled factory operative and many, not all, of my colleagues take drugs. They have no ambition and have already resigned themselves to a life of laboour and struggle. Perhaps it's time that the unskilled started getting a decent wage. I''m no communist but I think that anybody who plays their part in society ought to be treated equally. There it is. My point. Equality.


And as an unskilled worker (who’s actually semi skilled but they get round that in the job description) I fully agree, people should earn a decent wage without a string of qualifications behind their name.



Down tools. What a lovely term. Sure it will affect the poor mostly but it will also affect the rich. It will create havoc in society and maybe that's just whats needed to bring attention to this lack of equality. I for one, and I'm probably alone on this, would be happy to sacrifice even my life if I truly thought some good might come of it. Most of humanity does not feel the same way and this is what creates the divide. Bill Gates and some other rich ^£%*&$# could probably single handedly feed and educate an entire third world nation. But they don't.


I just think/hope there are better ways to covertly undermine and bring about a rethink about societies inequalities but even so sticking with that idea, as a temporary tactic, yes perhaps, as a permanent lifestyle choice it’s a cop out that merely adds to the misery of the poor.


Seems like I'm not the only negative nelly in this thread. I think that sensible leglisation of drugs would eradicate a large section of the criminal underworld. It would create more jobs and probably boost the economy. I'm also for legalisation of prostition, but that sort of forward thinking should probably be left for another time.


I’d say more a cynical nelly. That is there are solutions to these problems but there often buried amidst fashionable neo liberal cant which covertly seems to imply society is at fault so it deserves what it gets. Unfortunately the only ones who bear the brunt of that are us, the less well off. The self ordained judges of society carry on living quite well in their gated communities.



Perhaps you are unable to share my vision of a utopia. A world without divide. A world where one guy might be designing complex computer programs or components for energy efficient engines but he earns about the same as the person who sells him his milk in the mornings. In that world, I believe, the cynicism that is now ingraved in the mindset of the youth will be extinct. You will know then that every moment you are at work you are being appreciated. Because without the lower echelons of society, our society would not be so great. But it's the people in the upper echelons who are being rewarded. This is inequality. This is my point.


How odd because in principle I do share a lot of your hopes and ideals. But being more world weary and in the context of this thread I don’t believe Utopia will be achieved by hoping for people to do the right thing off there own back. We need both incentives and checks and balances to weed out those who would take advantage and are only out for themselves otherwise we end up with dystopia instead. Perhaps once it becomes apparent how much better things are maybe then we’ll all tow the line but initially I think you need as much stick as carrot.

Read that list at the beginning of all the crimes committed, nothing justifies what was inflicted on any of those people as I’m sure you’ll agree. But it’s mainly those who have opted out and have twisted those basically sound ideals to justify their actions who are responsible for those acts.



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