Wheres the SAM Batterys at the Pentagon??

Howdy fellow ATS'ers

Something that has been eating away at me for quite awhile, about 911,
is something called a "SAM", or Surface to Air missle, used to intercept various airborne targets.


Anyways, to my Point.

When i visited Washington DC (i went twice in the 1990's)
i recall them telling me SPECIFICALLY as we drove in the bus by the pentagon,
"Theres a No-fly zone over the pentagon and various other important gov't buildings here"

Not only that, in my trip during 96 (think it was 96), as i was touring the "tour section" of the white house,
i was just BS'n with the SS agents there keeping an eye on everyone.

They were just telling me stuff about DC etc, and somehow we got on the subject of how do they defend their buildings.

And the SS agents CLEARLY told me they have DOZENS of SAM launchers ALL over the White House, Capitol Building, and Pentagon (among other facilitys)

and if anyone breaks the No-Fly Zone, the SAM launchers radar systems will automatically target , identify and procede to blast it to hell.


NOW, granted i dont have any "evidence" of the existance of these SAM launchers on these facilitys, plain logic says to accept the SS agents' assertions as factual.

Im sure if u guys looked around u can find evidence of the existance of SAM batterys on these facilitys (or within close proximity of them)


Anyhow my POINT

IF theres SAM batterys all over DC, how did the Pentagon Flight crash ever happen??

Someone turned the SAM Batterys off?

Or are u gonna try to suggest that the Most powerful nation on earth has no friggin SAM Defense shield over its Capitol??


Cmon guys, consider this , its been bugging the hell out of me forever.
Can anyone plz explain to me how the pure existance of the FACT that the SAM batterys did not intercept the hijacked flight before impact , does not directly imply this was a inside job?

It sure does look like an inside job to me cuz, i know the REAL america uses SAM Batterys to defend their most important centers of operation, like, the PENTAGON

Did everyone forget that the Pentagon is the MOST gaurded facility on Earth? (well, the most gaurded "officially admitted existing facility", haha)

I just cannot for a minute believe their SAMs had trouble tracking a HUGE friggin passenger aircraft, and then couldnt pop a few shots at it b4 it even got within range

BTW their radar systems are extremely sophisticated and accurate and can tell you the Trajectory , speed, est time of arrival of a object it is tracking.
And thats the Old stuff.

Im sorry, it just does not add up.

the plain fact the SAMS didnt go off, makes me extremely suspicious.

Can anyone Prove the existance of SAM Batterys within 5miles of the pentagon? if so, plz link ur findings for us all to look at.

Now ive been on ATS forever, and lurked for even longer than that. I know how crap works here.
So unleash the arguement or whatever, but i dont really see how ones possible in this case.
IDK, lets see what everyone thinks about this.

I havent seen this topic posted b4 , or even ever seen a single poster referance this amazing "coincidence" of 911.
So i had to make this a new thread to address it.


1 last thing, Lets consider the SAM batterys were operational, but just Failed at getting this (Huge) incoming Jet.
That means our super billion dollar military is practically useless in a Real War. Which i Doubt.
I seriously Doubt that our trillion dollar system of defense is this prone to failure. i just DOUBT it i really do. call me a skeptic.


Anyways, Think about it.
Muzzleflash

==Comments? Lets try to keep this thread ON SUBJECT plz (SAM Batterys at Pentagon? what happened? why didnt they shoot down the jet?)

Goggled 'Pentagon defences' and read this

And finally, the Pentagon sits inside the P-56-A restricted air space section that extends 17 miles in all directions from the Washington Monument, and that activated air defenses from a joint FAA/Secret Service radar and air traffic control at Langley, VA for many years prior to 9/11. Interceptor fighter jets in that area, which is separate from and more restricted than FAA commercial air space, as well as much better defended, were regularly scrambled when small or commercial planes went off course or were not on scheduled routes within a larger Air Defense Identification Zone (ADIZ) that extends 50 miles out to give time for the response. Andrews Air Force base, within 10 miles of the city as well as the 113th Air Wing of the National Guard at Anacostia NAS have provided consistent scramble-ready defenses for the P-56 sector, which protects the most important government buildings. Having grown up and lived in the area for most of my life, I saw such defensive responses many times, guiding planes away from the restricted area. Commercial pilots have also long complained about the difficult curving maneuvers necessary to land or take off at Washington National Airport (now Reagan) to avoid entering P-56-B, the three-mile inner restricted zone above the White House, Capitol and Pentagon.

It's a start, take from it what you will. The writer claims back in 58 he sat on a box containing a SAM and was told to get off.

Pretty sure i have seen photo/video evidence of shoulder launched antiaircraft missile launchers on the roof of the whitehouse so personally i would be suprised if they wern't on the roof of the pentagon as well?

Restricted airspace does not mean any plane comes in get shot down automatically. There are no air defense sams around Washington D.C. The only time it happened was after 9/11 when the military brought in the Avengers.

Many times have planes mostly private have accidentally crossed into restricted airspace and was warned off, and when pilots land FBI comes in to interrogate them. Not one evidence has proven that we had any SAM system pre 9/11.

Besides that, back in 1994 a suicidal maniac crashed a small plane into the White House and nothing happened. Pretty much answers your question about any possible SAM site nearby.

[edit on 22-8-2007 by deltaboy]

Thank you, Now_Then, for your very helpful addition to this topic.

Quite a compelling read, i might Add.

I apoligize for being unable to pop out any good links at the moment, i hit my FAP on my satilite connect last nite and my connection is nerf'd and im sitting at 7000- 12000 ping (ms) right now

in about 6-12 hours my FAP will drop and i can load pages alot quicker and actually get down on some goggling with yall

until then, im at the mercy of Reading Links yall dig up for me,
My humble apoligies

Muzzleflash

im sorry deltaboy, but u cannot simply Claim there was no SAM or AAA defense of DC before 911, espeically with the existance of that Cold War thing...it just doesnt seem plausable

Now, the Incident about the crazy pilot who flew into the White House that fateful day, i do remember that, and its a great Point.

Thanks for bringing that up, but it doesnt Mean that theres no active Air Defense for DC prior 911, it just means , if they DO have this defense, they Intentionally LET 2 planes in

The small cessna type that hit the white house back in the 90s, and the passenger plane that hit the pentagon


i still have this strong feeling they have had SAM defense in DC for a long long time before 911, i mean, would those Secret Service guys have totally lied to me about it back 10-12years ago?

i mean ur trying to tell me that the SuperPower USA, doesnt even gaurd its freakin capitol.

cant u see why im super skeptical?? none of this is adding up, thats all im trying to say here

thanks

"a larger Air Defense Identification Zone (ADIZ) that extends 50 miles out to give time for the response"

well then, why were there no storys of Fighters scrambled to intercept the jet, and then procede to splash the bandit?

Cmon ! this isnt making any friggin sense at all!

0% sense!

Especially after the 94 crazy pilot white house crash incident, im sure AA Defense was stepped up significantly after that.

from 1997 till june of 2000 there were standing orders to take out any hijacked plane with military aircraft. the orders were replaced giving secretary of defense the job of making that call. I cannot find the links to this order atm but i have posted them before (this forum of course), found the info on a podcast on pilotsfor911truth.org.

Originally posted by muzzleflash
im sorry deltaboy, but u cannot simply Claim there was no SAM or AAA defense of DC before 911, espeically with the existance of that Cold War thing...it just doesnt seem plausable

Look any info and see where they place the old SAM missiles during the Cold War. You be surprise none of them were near the Capitol of U.S. of A.

Thanks for bringing that up, but it doesnt Mean that theres no active Air Defense for DC prior 911, it just means , if they DO have this defense, they Intentionally LET 2 planes in

If one can get in, why not another? IF they DO have this defense, then that little dingy plane would not have succeeded in hitting the White House in the first place.

i still have this strong feeling they have had SAM defense in DC for a long long time before 911, i mean, would those Secret Service guys have totally lied to me about it back 10-12years ago?

Strong feeling doesn't do crap.

i mean ur trying to tell me that the SuperPower USA, doesnt even gaurd its freakin capitol.

cant u see why im super skeptical?? none of this is adding up, thats all im trying to say here

thanks

A superpower is a superpower, but its not invincible. Terrorists attacked the U.S.S. Cole built to take on fighter jets and bombers, anti-ship missiles and they couldn't do crap against a pair of suicide bombers in a small zodiac boat filled with explosives back in 2000.

[edit on 22-8-2007 by deltaboy]

[edit on 22-8-2007 by deltaboy]

You guys would be surprised at how lax security is at some US government facilities ... the vast majority are protected by little more then a few pistol packing glorified security guards. Most security revolves around cameras, sensors, etc rather then physical security.

The Pentagon is not protected by battalions of MPs but rather by pistol packing civilian police called the "Pentagon Force Protection Agency". The only bring in the MPs when there are large scale protests, extremely credible info about a terrorist attack, etc

One possible reason is that the transponder on the plane was turned off...the air traffic control in that region had no idea where the plane even was...plus I believe they were told by another sector that the plane was heading out over the ocean. There were a lot of errors made by ATC on 9/11, it is entirely possible that the plane just was not seen. Also, once a plane gets below a certain altitude the "dot" disappears on the radar screen. It's possible that by the time the plane broke the no fly zone, it was already too low to be detected by Radar.

So there are 2 possible reasons it didn't get SAM'd...Human Error (not knowing there WAS a plane in the no fly zone...which is a horrible error), or, more likely, the plane was already too low to detect by radar.

I'm sure there are other possibilities too, but these are just 2 off the top of my head. There was a LOT of confusion between ATC and military authorities that day.

Originally posted by Jaruseleh
So there are 2 possible reasons it didn't get SAM'd...Human Error (not knowing there WAS a plane in the no fly zone...which is a horrible error), or, more likely, the plane was already too low to detect by radar.

You forgot the 3rd reason... They let it happen or made it happen on purpose.

What better way to pass the homeland security bill? I doubt it and other legislation would've passed had these so-called "terrorist attacks" not taken place.

Not to mention that the Reagan National Airport is practical next to the Pentagon. Expect to see each airplane getting shot down every few mins if we had air defense battery automatically hitting them when planes are approaching.

2points -

1 - SAM batterys have their own military radar systems , which are far more advanced than civilian radars , so it doesnt matter if civilian airline controllers were confused, it doesnt affect multiple military radar installations at all

2- Military pilots have to Train for months to learn how to effectively fly "UNder Radar" , in a Small manuverable fighter / bomber jet.

to suggest a Noob pilot was capable of flying a Passenger jet under radar for 10miles plus? Preposterous, im sorry, but it is

i mean its worth thinking about but the more i consider it, it seems so completely unlikely

and Deltaboy its become increasingly difficult to take ur comments seriously as you attempt to totally debunk the entire topic immediantly , with only conjecture and opinions, you have yet to Prove any of your assertions
1) That theres NO active SAM or AAA defense IN or within 5miles of the Capitol pre-2001

reply to post by deltaboy


um, passenger jets NEVER fly over or even near the pentagon, u fly like 2-3miles away

Dude ive been there more than once, i know as a fact ur statement is totally just another attempt to blow this off as Nothing

when in FACT this is SOMETHING!

(thats 3 attempts now to blow this thread off as nothing- yet u reply to it more than anyone else)

passenger jets are Never allowed to fly in that Zone, so basically if they Have a SAM defense it would never hit a passenger jet cuz they stay out of that zone purposely

may i ask why u are SO SURE that they dont have this defense?
is it because if it turns out they do have this defense, it would destroy your theory of what happened on 911?

dude, who cares whos theory is right, lets just be serious about this for 1minute please

How are you SO sure they didnt have SAM defense?

Originally posted by muzzleflash


and Deltaboy its become increasingly difficult to take ur comments seriously as you attempt to totally debunk the entire topic immediantly , with only conjecture and opinions, you have yet to Prove any of your assertions
1) That theres NO active SAM or AAA defense IN or within 5miles of the Capitol pre-2001

I'll take my opinion over your gut feeling about some SAM site that you feel is nearby.

Anyways, have you find any new information of this supposed SAM site anywhere?

[edit on 22-8-2007 by deltaboy]

I'm with you 100% on this one Mussleflash. I highly doubt that any high ranking official in the military never thought. "Hey, maybe we should have some type of defense system around the Pentagon and other important military or governmental buildings."

We talking about the most well defended country in the nation with one of the largest military budgets in the world. I'm sure there is some defense contractor sales guy out there somewhere, that while playing a round of golf mentioned to someone in the government, hey why don't you buy some SAM's and put them around strategic government buildings. I know, you may never need them, but just incase there is that one incident, at least you will be well prepared and defended.

I've heard of missle silo's in Wyoming that SAM's around them. If they have those there, I'm willing to bet that the White House and the Pentagon have some type of SAM system near them. I'm really interested in what other people come up with.

Here is a funny one. With the exception of a few places on military test ranges in the Western US, there are no fixed SAM sites in the US any more. Back in the 50's there were several Nike-Ajax sites through out the US, but the last of those was deactivated in the 70's. The reason for the lack of SAM sites around Washington DC can be explained by looking at the ABM treaty that the US and USSR signed.

The ADIZ (Air Defence Interception Zone) does extend off the coast of the US, but it isn't 50 miles it is 200 miles. As late as the 1990's an unidentified aircraft was likely to be intercepted and identified. This went away when President Clinton stood NORAD down as an alert force. NORAD is still in existance, but it doesn't have any assets assigned to it unless there is a SPECIFIC THREAT.

There are roof top sites that the Secret Service has designated for the emplacement of agents armed with Stinger missiles, but then again they are only deployed if there is a SPECIFIC THREAT. The Stingers are intended for use against small aircraft and helicopters and would be almost useless against airliners.

Originally posted by muzzleflash

um, passenger jets NEVER fly over or even near the pentagon, u fly like 2-3miles away

Dude ive been there more than once, i know as a fact ur statement is totally just another attempt to blow this off as Nothing

when in FACT this is SOMETHING!

(thats 3 attempts now to blow this thread off as nothing- yet u reply to it more than anyone else)

passenger jets are Never allowed to fly in that Zone, so basically if they Have a SAM defense it would never hit a passenger jet cuz they stay out of that zone purposely

may i ask why u are SO SURE that they dont have this defense?
is it because if it turns out they do have this defense, it would destroy your theory of what happened on 911?

dude, who cares whos theory is right, lets just be serious about this for 1minute please

How are you SO sure they didnt have SAM defense?

Pffft YES THEY DO.





[edit on 22-8-2007 by deltaboy]

i stand corrected, excellant thats what im looking for

Now that u have established theres traffic there, even tho theres a "no-fly zone" which makes no sense, because your trying to say every jet that takes off , flys right thru that zone..

well, that still doesnt allieviate my earlier concers, about the existance of a SAM defense

Even if they have passenger jets flying over *the ones taking off* (cuz i remember coming in to land i saw the pentagon off to the west...)

that would mean
1) they could use computerized tracking and ID methods to "flag" targets , passenger jets that dont cause issues wont get flagged etc..
2) they only track Incoming air traffic (for defense purposes), or air traffic that went off course and is loitering over an area
3) using a flagging/tracking method and portable SAM launchers to give alot of room for humans to make their own decision if the target is for real or misjudged as a bogey incorrectly etc..


so even with the great Photo evidence u contributed to disprove my wrongful assertion there is no civilian flight over the pentagon, which i appreciate

we are still left with the dillemma of if they have SAMs there, and for How Long have they been operational and under what capacity

Even if theres alot of air traffic, they would be able to differentiate enemy from friend fairly accurately still

i just wanna know if they are really there, and why they were not used (if they exist)

But thanks for pointing out that one fact i was missing, TY for the good contribution Delta.