NEWS: (AP) Israel to Kill Hamas Founder

Arch:

"....Who on this earth has less freedom than they do..."

Let's start with the Tibetan's for one. How about the Armenians in Turkey, the Chechens, the Basques, and perhaps a dozen more, for starters?
Again, none of them have been offered a "state solution" nor have the been recognized with a "special representitive seat" in/at the UN, etc.

You do realize that an interview was done by the BBC, I can't remember the year, but it was with a member of the Palestinian Legislative Council. When the individual was asked did Arafat truly have the power to stop 'mob violence', the individual answered that it probably could not be done without 'fatal force' being used on the 'mob'/rioters. The individual of the PLC was then asked, how do you then expect the IDF to stop this very same type of demonstrations and rioters violence without using 'fatal force'? The PLC member/individual commented that it is the duty of the government to protect its citizens from such violence. The PLC member/individual further commented that, what are we supposed to do to stop this from happening, in regards to Israel? Even if Arafat could place a 1,000 militia/soldiers in a row, this cannot stop a mass 'mob' of thousands of rioters with rocks and automatic weapons.....



regards
seekerof

[Edited on 17-1-2004 by Seekerof]

"Let's start with the Tibetan's for one. How about the Armenians in Turkey, the Chechens, the Basques, and perhaps a dozen more, for starters? "


Are these people being ethnicly cleansed?

Do they get to vote?

"When the individual was asked did Arafat truly have the power to stop 'mob violence', the individual answered that it probably could not be done without 'fatal force' being used on the 'mob'/rioters."

Arafat cannot stop mobs of people who desire freedom.

Until they have it the Palestinians will fight for their freedom.

You may not like the methods, or the results, but the motive is to get Israel out.

The source of it is Israels actions.

You cannot expect Arafat to stop something that he has not caused. Only Israel can.

You expect these people to stop fighting for their freedom, and use their actions towards this goal as justification for denying them freedom.

It will not happen. The man in the interview was right.

In looking for solutions for the problem you repreatedly point to examples that would seem to show that there is no solution.

Well you are right, there is no solution if you fail to consider ending the occupation.

The denial that Israel is responsible for the reaction of the Palestinains is mysterious to me. How can someone deny that there hate is fuel by their lack of freedom, and the suffering imposed by Israel?

How can people be so blind to the reason WHY?

[Edited on 17-1-2004 by ArchAngel]

Hamas spiritual leader Sheikh Ahmed Yassin called upon his organization to immediately execute terror attacks in retaliation for Israel's threat to renew targeted killings, Friday.

Israel says they will kill people, and as a balanced response Yasin does the same.

Are you presenting this to show that he is evil, or that Israel is evil, or that both are?

Action - Reaction

It seems that Israel is the one at fault in this example.

Hey Arch. the plight of the groups I have mentioned have it far worse than the Palestinian's.....question are better answered when one investigates this for themselves.

As to Yassin's response being legit "because" Israel says they will target leaders that send suicide bombers and perpetrate terrorism.....let me put this forth for you as an opposite.....
Arafat, PLO/PLA, Hamas, Hezbollah, etc. continues to say that they will continue to kill Jews and continue with their plans of genocide and destruction of Israel....seems that Israel has just as much right to 'kill' and respond as the Palestinians do, eh? Hey, after-all, thats why analyst and Middle East experts continue to label and term it the "Cycle of Violence."
It seems that BOTH are at fault in most to many of the examples given Arch.
"Justification" for one may not be seen as "justification" by another, but then again, thats why they continue to have a difference of views and opinions, etc., right?
Thats why the killing continues on both sides....
The source is always either Zionism and/or Israel....yes, as for you Arch, another 6-7 million will be rightly deserved by the Jews.....thats great to know that such acts are "justified" by so many.....makes me wonder on past genocides against any types of peoples if they were "justifed" by the same reasonings as well.
Then again, the Israel at least know this straight up this time around.



regards
seekerof

The source is always either Zionism and/or Israel....yes, as for you Arch, another 6-7 million will be rightly deserved by the Jews.

As you stated before Jews lived in the area for the entire time from the beginning of Israel until today. There numbers may have been small, but they were there. They were allowed to own land, and be part of the nations and empires that ruled.

It was not until zionism that the differences grew into the cycle of violence. So yes, it is zionism that has created this cycle because it did not exist before zionists began taking action to create a racist nation in their midst.

If Israel changed their laws and gave the Palestinians equal rights would there still be a conflict?

And please, why do you bring up 6 million jews, and imply that I think they deserve to die. If I ever said anything remotely like that please provide a link to it.

Motivated, yes.

Justified in the minds of Palesinians, some yes.

Deserved?

No humans deserve to die for anything less than murder, and only through a legitimate court that represents them should this sentence be issued.

You are still confused about me. I am on the other side.

Not the extremist Zionists side, not the Islamic extremists side.

Not the Muslims side, and not the Jews side.

Not the Israeli side, and not the Palestinian side.

I am not against the people who are Jews, or Zionists, or Israelies. I am not against the people who are Muslim, or Chirstian, or Palestinain, or Arab.

I am not on any side that is wrong. I am on the side of the people who do not have freedom, or representation.

Liberate Palestine.

And if Israel were occupied i would say Liberate Israel.

"Liberation" has been offered 4 times Arch. It was rejected 4 times....on various reasons.....choosers can't be picky, right Arch? But in this case, they are. Tibetans, Chechans, others haven't been offered a "state" solution, let alone 4 times. Whys that?

Palestians will become a state, realllllllllllll soon. I'd wager that the "violence" does not stop, but we'll see.
True colors will reveal themselves as will the truth, sometime after this happens....actions speak louder than words.

I wish both sides peace, but this still does not clear up nor justify the dogmatic doctrines set forth by Arafat, etc. Is and will this be a continued policy Arch? Even after having a 'state'?

No matter, as I said, time will reveal this.


regards
seekerof

""Liberation" has been offered 4 times Arch. It was rejected 4 times....on various reasons"

The Palestinians accepted Oslo, and gave up land to Israel. In this agreement Israel was supposed to withdraw. They are still there, and have absorbed the land the Palestinians gave away in hopes of freedom.

In any other so-called offer Israel gave themselves the Temple mount.

That is not an offer of peace. That is attempted armed robbery.

You statement is not accurate. Israel offered them surrender, not peace.


"I wish both sides peace, but this still does not clear up nor justify the dogmatic doctrines set forth by Arafat, etc. Is and will this be a continued policy Arch? Even after having a 'state'?"

How can Arafat, or anyone stop the people from fighting for thier freedom?

No matter their methods it is their motive, so that is what they are fighting for. Nothing you, or I say matters concerning what they think, and what motivates them.

How many would really attack Israel knowing they were going to die, if the Israelies withdrew, and they finally had freedom?

I bet it would be few to none.

You act as if this were possible for Arafat to stop the cycle. It is the lack of freedom that pushes them over the edge. Every other issue is minor. The hate will not end until AFTER the occupation ends, not the other way around as you would expect.


[Edited on 17-1-2004 by ArchAngel]

Did you see the map that Barak offered at Taba?? All of Gaza, nearly all of West bank, with extra land in israel now given to Palestineans as compensation.

It was published in the _Economist_. Clinton's personal attache on thte talks confirmed its accuracy.

Arafat rejected it.

Hamas's idea of "occupation" is the existence of Jews within 1000 kilometers. Now, if they wanted say a "one-state fedral solution", Hamas would say things like "jews are great people but we can't deal with the state of Israel as it is, here is our proposal for the Confederation of Israel and Palestine, where both of us could live happily. If that happened and we all could vote then I will issue a fatwa to stop all the killing and we will re-integrate and have a reconciliation committee like in South AFrica." Has any of them ever said anything like that? No.

Instead, read what they say, (www.memri.org), things like spilling blood, how Jews are like pigs (ritually unclean in Jewish and Islamic law) and dogs, filth, blah blah blah, kill kill kill.

That doesn't sound like they envision a cooperative plan. That sounds like they plan on genocide. The psychological structure of the hate is pretty darn close to Der Sturmer, the notorious Nazi propaganda rag of the 1930's.

as far as a "racist state"---Saudi Arabia. Non-muslims aren't even permitted inside the entire *city* of Mecca.

Israel is ethnically diverse.

We have a great empirical example to look at.

Take Lebanon. Israel had a unilateral withdrawl in the late 90's.
(they were there because the PLO was previously bombing them from lebanon).

Indeed it was time, and it was right of them to leave.

Now, how much credit in the world did Israel get? Zero.

And more importantly, has Hezbollah changed their attitude at all?
Not in the slightest. They are still devoted to the violent extermination of Israel and Jews.

Originally posted by mbkennel
Did you see the map that Barak offered at Taba?? All of Gaza, nearly all of West bank, with extra land in israel now given to Palestineans as compensation.

It was published in the _Economist_. Clinton's personal attache on thte talks confirmed its accuracy.

Arafat rejected it.

www.gush-shalom.org...


I dont see how you can make that evaluation of the map. The peace offer was no such thing. It was attempted armed robbery.

The map does not show that the Palestinains land would still be divided by access roads. The crossing points would still have been under Israeli control. No nation on earth would accept to be divided, and have no border with any nation other than their enemies.

Maybe you should look closer at the supposed offer Israel made. The truth is further from what you understand.

you can not destroy hamas