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Isolationism Is America's Answer

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posted on Dec, 18 2007 @ 10:57 AM
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Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
honestly, this just looks like you're asserting that you have a right to special privileges because of where you were born. that americans have some right because of the nation of their birth is no better than saying a man rules a nation because his father was the one who ruled before him.


Honestly, how is it that America is somehow obligated to allow every Tom, Dick and Harry to come over here from wherever and drain it dry? What other nation does that? I tell you what you do, go to Europe and try to take advantage of their "social services" and see how successful you are.. Oh, but America is still "mean and hateful," right? Uh, yeah, I hear ya. (Sarcasm)


Madness, you might as well give it up. When you are talking to me about my country, I'm not going to bend in my stance. I'm just not.




[edit on 18-12-2007 by SpeakerofTruth]

[edit on 18-12-2007 by SpeakerofTruth]




posted on Dec, 18 2007 @ 11:26 AM
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Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth

Originally posted by InSpiteOf

Do you really believe that US intervention is goodhearted in its intent but lacks somekind of forsight in its actions?



In 90% of the cases, yes, I do...

To say that such incursions as the one into Iraq was anything other than to fulfill self interest would probably be naive.

I was going to leave Iraq out because its overplayed and over simplified.



However, how is being the first nation to respond to the tsunami disaster fulfilling self interest?


This issue is hard to address, it has a lot to do with how US AID money is used and who benefits from it. The ATS user Astyanax did an amazing job describing how US AID money is used around the world. Ive sent him a U2U asking him to direct me to the thread (hopefully he remembers) as I cant find the link right now.

Suffice it to say, US AID rarely trickles down to help those that really need it. From corrupt officials pocketting some of the funds, to the stipulations that US AID money must be used to buy US goods, shipped on US ships, in US containers, at US dictated prices, little of the money marked as US AID money acutally leaves the country.



How was liberating Europe during WW2 self interest?


This issue has been hit a number of times on this site, and I think its best to refrence some of those discussions at a later date should we need to press this issue.



How was supporting Afghanistan against Russia self interest?

Revolutionary movements are a problem for Capitalism because they threaten the existing class structure. The war on Communism was a war based solely on Class Perogitives, not democratic concerns. The US National Security State would stop at nothing to end a fledgeling rebellion and the comming changes, so they launch massive military incursions and support proxy forces in order to overthrow or destabilize. US support for Afganistan fell not on the people, but on the feudal tribal leaders; the opium exporters; the warlords. US leaders had no interest in stopping communism (in Afganistan or elsewhere) because of its undemocratic nature, but because of its unique class structure, which detracted from large concentratios of personal wealth, and focussed on egalitarian reforms (in principal or practise). For all the evil things the CCCP did, the initial revolution was lead by the people for the people, against the oligarchs and aristrocrats. (Even the initial White Guards were supported by Western Capitalist Nations Including the US. So even before any claims of undemocratic actions or atrocities could arise, the US helped launch an invaision of the newly formed Communist Russia.)

I leave you with a question, if you believe that US plicy makers and leaders have good intentions in most cases of foreign intervention, why did US leaders invade Grenada?



posted on Dec, 18 2007 @ 11:31 AM
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I leave you with a question, if you believe that US plicy makers and leaders have good intentions in most cases of foreign intervention, why did US leaders invade Grenada?



Grenada is a drug hub is it not?

Anyway, it would be foolish to surmise that some of the actions of the U.S government is not self-serving. However my question to you is name one country that is any different? Name one nation that does not do things in the name of self interest and preservation.



posted on Dec, 18 2007 @ 11:56 AM
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Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
Grenada is a drug hub is it not?


It may be, but that has nothing to do with why the Reagan administration invaded the Country. After all it was him that said, "Nutmeg is not the question" (nutmeg being the major export of grenada at the time).

Anyway, it would be foolish to surmise that some of the actions of the U.S government is not self-serving. However my question to you is name one country that is any different? Name one nation that does not do things in the name of self interest and preservation.

Certainly other nations act in their on interest, but that doesnt mean the citizens of that country dont have the right to critically question those actions and policies.

The US is the foremost Interventionist country in the world and that is why she is in the limelight more often than not. US foreign policy has a brutal history of supporting dictators, autocrats, despots, and war criminals. How can a country with the largest number of think tanks continuosly make the same mistakes of supporting these people while enacting such policies of intervention? Come on man, your a smart guy, cant you see through the BS? US foreign policy isnt foolhearty, it isnt weakwilled, and it often neve fails. It is on the other hand, well calculated, vicious, brutal, and purposeful. It may suffer from a few defeats and setbacks, but the overall policy is largely successful.

[edit on 18-12-2007 by InSpiteOf]



posted on Dec, 18 2007 @ 12:03 PM
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oh, inspiteof, I do agree that much of it is orchestrated and seems to be headed in a guided direction. Also, I' m not always so sure that I like the direction it is guiding us either... That is part of the reason I am hopeful that more "isolationists" come into the light. I do think it is time that America steps back and asks itself the question, "What are we doing?" Inspiteof, I really don't think you and I are in much disagreement. I just think we may agree for different reasons.


[edit on 18-12-2007 by SpeakerofTruth]



posted on Dec, 18 2007 @ 12:27 PM
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reply to post by SpeakerofTruth
 


You may be very right
Im not fully convinced that isolationism is really the answer, i think a strong policy of non-internvetionism will do just fine. If you could get your policy makers to stop sending the sword in to make way for the dollar, i think we would all be better off.

As always, good talking to you.



posted on Dec, 18 2007 @ 12:49 PM
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reply to post by SpeakerofTruth
 


hear hear!! i think you are absolutly right! Enough is enough.



Mod Note: One Line Posts - Please review this link

[edit on 20-12-2007 by 12m8keall2c]



posted on Dec, 18 2007 @ 01:11 PM
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Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
Honestly, how is it that America is somehow obligated to allow every Tom, Dick and Harry to come over here from wherever and drain it dry?


...immigration has never led to "draining dry" of an economy, legal or illegal. the US economy actually seems to thrive on immigration surges.



What other nation does that?


that's the point, NATIONS ARE STUPID. the concept of a nation is just a prideful idea. it's calling 1 fraction of a pixel by a certain name.



I tell you what you do, go to Europe and try to take advantage of their "social services" and see how successful you are.. Oh, but America is still "mean and hateful," right? Uh, yeah, I hear ya. (Sarcasm)


i'm taking advantage of them quite well, as are my russian, chinese, and ethiopian national friends in malta.

educate yourself before pulling rants out of thin air



Madness, you might as well give it up. When you are talking to me about my country, I'm not going to bend in my stance. I'm just not.


your country is a petty construct created by people just over 200 years ago on the basis of "overtaxation" while they experienced the highest standard of living in the world and had self-governance....
honestly, it's just an institution that will fade with time, as all other nations have and will.

your responsibilities should be to something greater, something that will be around a lot longer, it's called humanity.

how about this: you go with your idea of a neo-nobility based on geographical birth instead of lineage and i'll try to make the WORLD a better place.

human first, from planet earth second, of a nation... that doesn't even factor in.



posted on Dec, 19 2007 @ 07:23 AM
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Just wanted to come back and post a link to Astyanax's analysis of US AID.

First
Second

Those are the relevant links to my post above.



posted on Dec, 20 2007 @ 06:14 AM
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so... anyone going to justify their positions here or will this thread just be left dead in the water for lack of counterarguments



posted on Dec, 20 2007 @ 08:05 AM
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Well what part of my stance needs justification?

I believe in a policy of non-intervention over isolationism. I believe if the policy makers of the US administration(s) were to follow International Law and stop fabricating conflicts through covert actions and Sword and Dollar Diplomacy, there would be little to no Anti-US sentiment.



posted on Dec, 20 2007 @ 08:13 AM
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hahahahahhahahahhahahahaha isolation... Americans may want to be isolated from the world but not the politicians above us. America's whole goal since the beginning was World Domination. That is why you have the dollar bill in the back saying NEW WORLD ORDER and that is why George Washington's MAson ass was chosen to be the first, of many of his kind to rule the country. If America was to stay isolated from the world like Cuba is, then America wouldnt be as powerful as it is... America NEEDS to become involved in every world issue to gain power and that is why the world hates and blames them you fool.

You people who do not go outside your borders are generally ignorant as to what the world is. The world has a good reason to not like americans and think about it, how would you like another country getting involved in your local or national issues? How would you like a country like Canada (with all the lumber in their country) suddenly go to your state and start cutting down trees? or Saudi Arabia setting up oil companies and drill oil out of your backyard with all the oil they have? or South Africa taking diamonds and gold from USA with all the supply they have (which American steals). I do not blame them for hating our government. And you fools have running water, AC, paved streets, street lights and all your wonderful neglected things because America is involved in the world. Otherwise if America wasnt involved, how could you have medicine coming straight out of the Amazon? or kangaroo meat? or how would you have airplanes which Brazil manifactures? Colombian coffee? all the things that come from America's involvement in the world?

Another thing is... There is someone above Bush in our government. They have ties with all the other countries already. The more wars USA goes into, the closer to NWO we will become! America's success from the very beginning came from conquering the world. First the Native Americans, then Mexicans, then the whole world! If America shouldnt be involved in the world ( I think they shouldnt ) then make Haiwaii a nation, release Puerto Rico and Guam, live off your own damn resources and leave the world alone. But as history goes, America will further its plans and soon unite the whole world as one... to dominate every man and woman as George Bush Sr. prophetized in September 11, 1991.



posted on Dec, 20 2007 @ 10:19 AM
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Originally posted by Du Mu
hahahahahhahahahhahahahaha isolation... Americans may want to be isolated from the world but not the politicians above us. America's whole goal since the beginning was World Domination.


Considering how the world was divided at the time of the USA's inception, I doubt their goal was world domination. Further, Id suggest the first imperial dream of the US was to become a pacific power, and this goal was achieved through the Spanish-American war.

You need to define what you mean by world domination. The US doesnt have colonies in the traditional sense, what US leaders do have, is economic colonies created through economic imperialism. Id say World Economic Domination was more the goal than total world domination.



That is why you have the dollar bill in the back saying NEW WORLD ORDER


Someone who is more versed in Latin will clarify this for me but I believe it does not say "new World Order", it says "New Order of Ages" or something to that effect.


If America was to stay isolated from the world like Cuba is,


Cuba is far from isolated from the world.


then America wouldnt be as powerful as it is...


You dont need to be interventionist to be powerful.



America NEEDS to become involved in every world issue to gain power and that is why the world hates and blames them you fool.


I disagree, becoming the worlds formost diplomatic country would grant them measureable power aswell. US leaders dont attack other countries for power, they do it for the further the overall Capitalist System.


You people who do not go outside your borders are generally ignorant as to what the world is.

I live in Canada, Ive been to about 10 different countries, and have read volumes on outside political regimes, policies, administrations and decisions. You really need to stop assuming so much.



The world has a good reason to not like americans and think about it,


A classic error. You are assuming that the will of the government is a response to the will of the people.

You dont see US citizens out on the street protesting for more involvement in the middle east. You dont see US citizens protesting for the destabilization of Mozambique or Angola. You dont see US citizens protesting for the support of proxy and deathsquad warfare in central and south America. You do see US citizens protesting against those things though.


Otherwise if America wasnt involved, how could you have medicine coming straight out of the Amazon? or kangaroo meat? or how would you have airplanes which Brazil manifactures? Colombian coffee? all the things that come from America's involvement in the world?


From free and fair trade.



Another thing is... There is someone above Bush in our government. They have ties with all the other countries already. The more wars USA goes into, the closer to NWO we will become!


How does creating resource scarcities, divided populations, tribal warfare, etc etc etc, further the goals of the ellusive NWO?



But as history goes, America will further its plans and soon unite the whole world as one...

I disagree, the current trend suggests the international corprate finance capitalists will abandon the US ship and back china as the next world super power and formost interventionist power.

In my opinoin, the Parasites that have leached the American Public dry are getting ready to move on.



to dominate every man and woman as George Bush Sr. prophetized in September 11, 1991.


Can you clarify?



posted on Dec, 20 2007 @ 10:57 AM
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Originally posted by Du Mu
hahahahahhahahahhahahahaha isolation... Americans may want to be isolated from the world but not the politicians above us. America's whole goal since the beginning was World Domination. That is why you have the dollar bill in the back saying NEW WORLD ORDER and that is why George Washington's MAson ass was chosen to be the first, of many of his kind to rule the country. If America was to stay isolated from the world like Cuba is, then America wouldnt be as powerful as it is... America NEEDS to become involved in every world issue to gain power and that is why the world hates and blames them you fool.



I hope you know that the principle of FREEDOM is a Masonic concept and not a concept of the Christian European elite... Surely you do realize that...

since you made the decision to bring spirituality into the equation, I just thought I'd mention that little tidbit for ya.. You have a good day now, ya hear?

[edit on 20-12-2007 by SpeakerofTruth]



posted on Dec, 20 2007 @ 12:39 PM
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reply to post by InSpiteOf
 


the comment wasn't directed at you, it was directed at the one not responding to me



posted on Dec, 20 2007 @ 12:50 PM
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reply to post by madnessinmysoul
 









How can you say I'm not responding? I'm not going to feed into some of the things you say, I'm just not.

[edit on 20-12-2007 by SpeakerofTruth]



posted on Dec, 20 2007 @ 12:58 PM
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reply to post by SpeakerofTruth
 


so you're not going to "feed into" me pointing out that you've made outright fallacious claims... again?
honestly, this is the second time you've pulled arguments and outright falsehoods from your rear, i've pointed them out, and you've stopped responding to me because of that.



posted on Dec, 20 2007 @ 01:03 PM
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Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
falsehoods from your rear, i've pointed them out, and you've stopped responding to me because of that.


What "falsehood" have I "pulled from my rear," Madness? Please, praytell, do tell.

[edit on 20-12-2007 by SpeakerofTruth]



posted on Dec, 20 2007 @ 01:22 PM
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reply to post by madnessinmysoul
 


Ahh sorry for the misunderstanding.


I think ill sit this part out and watch, but my neck is getting tired from moving back and forth.




posted on Dec, 20 2007 @ 01:33 PM
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Inspiteof, Madness' problem is that he views anything as being "fallacious" if it doesn't correspond to his own mind rust... I'm curious as to what he is going to say is "fallacious" this time. I wait in giddy anticipation.



[edit on 20-12-2007 by SpeakerofTruth]



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