Did the Space Shuttle dock at the Secret Space Station tonight?

Originally posted by MrPenny

Originally posted by IgnoreTheFacts
How many people would have to be "in the know" to support such a thing, and could secrecy with that many people be maintained?

I think right there is where the entire idea takes a nosedive. Thousands of people, over a time span claimed to be roughly 40 years, considering the secret space activities described by Mr. Lear?

I would have to respectfully disagree, MrPenny, concerning the theory of the existence of "Secret Space Stations," that any "nosedive" of this "entire idea" has taken place.



Once again the "debunkers" have raised this zombie "strawman" from his moldering grave, to prop him up and attempt to lend credence to the "impossibility" of maintaining secrecy on a large-scale military project.

I repeat, a large-scale, secret military project!!

lol.

As has been pointed out, (how many times now?) by JL and others; how many of these "thousands" of individuals actually knew each other or even had any idea what they were really working on?

Like JL's also quite fond of pointing out; "the lie is different for each layer of the onion."

With everything under a strict, military style "need to know" basis, and highly compartmentalised, a very high percentage, if not all of the workers who take part in such a secret program would have no need to know the details of how their widgit fits with another's whozit.

In fact, they would probably be granted no knowledge of how their unwitting contributions are actually being utilized by the very few, at the very top, who are truely "in the know."

And those truly "in the know," the ones who stand to gain the most from such a program, don't say.

What could possibly be the motivation for those elites "in the know" to undermine a secret military/elite program so "black ops", that to do so would put themselves and their entire families at great risk of being "disappeared?"



Isn't it about time we spread this poor "strawman" in the pasture of failed arguments, and allow dk3000's silly two legged horse to finally trample it into the oblivion it so richly deserves?

reply to post by goosdawg



Have you heard about the super secret refuge for the US Congress where it was supposed to function in the event of a nuclear war? I believe it was the Green Briar hotel in Virginia. Honestly, it doesn't get much more secret than THAT. And guess what, it was finally leaked, and it took much less time than 40 years.

If you are willing to believe that the Shuttle is cloaked in the literal sense of the word, by wrapping a piece of tarp around it, as John seems to suggest, that's your right.

I have a much more attractive theory to offer. There is a giant sphere surrounding our planet, created by a powerful alien race. The Solar system, the stars, everything -- is just a projection on this spherical screen. You can't even reach the Moon because it does not exist. The Shuttle in fact periodically reaches a hatch on the inner surface of that shell and docs with it, to chat with the aliens over a few beers. Apollo crews also accessed this hatch during their supposed lunar expedition.




[edit on 16-11-2007 by buddhasystem]

Originally posted by buddhasystem
Have you heard about the super secret refuge for the US Congress where it was supposed to function in the event of a nuclear war? I believe it was the Green Briar hotel in Virginia. Honestly, it doesn't get much more secret than THAT. And guess what, it was finally leaked, and it took much less time than 40 years.

You expect members of the US Congress to keep a secret!!??

LOL!!

Now that really is laughable!!



Thanks for the lafs, BS!

Originally posted by goosdawg

You expect members of the US Congress to keep a secret!!??

Heck, why do you expect lay persons to keep a secret? There may be even less motivation.

Originally posted by buddhasystem
Heck, why do you expect lay persons to keep a secret? There may be even less motivation.

"Lay persons?"

Not at all.

Military contractors?

Very much so!

[edit on 16-11-2007 by goosdawg]

Originally posted by IgnoreTheFacts

It would seem that he has a conspiracy that allows him to believe and post anything, no matter how stupid it is.

Thanks for the post IGF. Many would agree with you but not all would refer to a fellow member of ATS as you did.

Whenever you stand a chance of stumbling him with logic, he goes off into fantasy world and runs away....

I never go OFF INTO a fantasy world, I've been there for 65 years.

The only running away I do is when I head up to the mine for a few days a week. I currently have a number of threads which I respond to daily.

But thanks for your input, it isalways welcome.

Originally posted by buddhasystem

If you are willing to believe that the Shuttle is cloaked in the literal sense of the word, by wrapping a piece of tarp around it, as John seems to suggest, that's your right.

Thanks for post BS. I believe you may have misread my post about hiding the Space Shuttle, here it is again:

"A very simple way to cloak the Space shuttle on a Secret Space Station would be net or cloth or other material spread out and positioned so that it would be impossible to see the Shuttle from earth."

There is nothing about 'wrapping a piece of tarp around it.'

Thanks for your post, your input is always appreciated.

Originally posted by johnlear

"A very simple way to cloak the Space shuttle on a Secret Space Station would be net or cloth or other material spread out and positioned so that it would be impossible to see the Shuttle from earth."

There is nothing about 'wrapping a piece of tarp around it.'

I stand corrected. The cloth (and I think the tarp would still work) must NOT be wrapped around the shuttle. It must be placed between the shuttle and the potential observers on the ground trying to spy the Super Secret Space Station. Then, of course, is they see the tarp they'll just say "oh well, nothing exciting there. Just a giant piece of tarp flying in space."

Originally posted by buddhasystem
Then, of course, is they see the tarp they'll just say "oh well, nothing exciting there. Just a giant piece of tarp flying in space."

Why would they even see the "tarp" if it's projecting an image of the star field/empty space behind it?

Or even something as simple as a "black" camouflage pattern?

And they wouldn't have to hide the shuttle anyway, just the SSS(S's?) and their support vehicles.

The shuttle would only have to be "in the neighborhood" to conduct their business with an SSS.

And we would all know the shuttle's up there, right?

It would be really suspicious if it suddenly "disappeared" for a while, wouldn't it?

I for one have trouble swallowing all this without a large grain of salt. The evidence seems unsupported except by other suspect sources.

However, I do believe that it is a possibility based on the sheer amount of funding that is poured directly into the military industrial complex in this country. Break it down: about half of the money sent to the government from your paycheck in the form of taxes goes to the military, plain and simple. The fact of the matter is that if you have that much money, you can do just about anything, because that's the way it works here on planet earth.

So, in my mind the question is not CAN this happen, because we have seen time and time again how governments can do things without the knowledge and consent of their citizens, but rather WOULD it happen? Despite the apparent inefficiency of our Government, they employ or contract some of the most innovative minds of our time, many of which work in the capacity of a problem solver. So logically we can assume that they would not do something unless it presented maximum benefit with few if any cost restrictions.

What exactly is the cost/benefit analysis of such a secret project? How much has the ISS cost member nations? Would this project be exclusive to the US, or are the dark underbellies of several governments involved?

What would be the purpose of maintaining a separate multinational(or not) station in orbit?

All this information merely inspires more questions, and answers few if any.

Originally posted by goosdawg
With everything under a strict, military style "need to know" basis, and highly compartmentalised, a very high percentage, if not all of the workers who take part in such a secret program would have no need to know the details of how their widgit fits with another's whozit.

But the amount of "need to know" increments to a point where it becomes pretty plain what is being accomplished. As a widgit gets fitted to a whozit, and then more thingamajigs get bolted to that....Eventually something recognizable takes form. You suppose, for instance, you could give a thousand carpenters an individual 2 x 4, tell them exactly where to place their single contribution, and not a single one of them wouldn't eventually figure out they're building a 3 bedroom ranch? Really?

I'm not arguing that many of the tiny pieces of such a project couldn't be kept completely black......I'm arguing that it's ludicrous to suggest projects of this magnitude, in their entirety, could be kept secret to the level you're suggesting. There have to be architects, bosses, overseers, designers, engineers.....even lower level managers with the smarts to deduce what is going on.

The "onion" analogy flies in the face of common sense. And trying to argue that position is tantamount to giving up your ability to think clearly.

oops Posted this in the other shuttle thread... Its supposed to be here

Dang It To many same thread

Oh well... BACK TO THE SSS

Secret Space Vehicles and Stations could use a little different power source...

We have been talking a lot about Helium 3 production and transportation from the Moon and I said before I had difficulty in tracking it past LEO and where it goes from there...

Now I know about the Levitated Dipole Fusion Confinement work at MIT that uses HE3... but that wasn't enough...

Well we have a little more data on this now...

SOAR: Space Orbiting Advanced Fusion Power Reactor. Final report, October 1986-January 1987

Creator/Author Kulcinski, F.L. ; Santarius, J.F.
Publication Date 1987 Sep 01
OSTI Identifier OSTI ID: 5226365
Report Number(s) AD-A-189234/8/XAB
Resource Type Technical Report
Research Org Wisconsin Univ., Madison (USA)

Subject 220800 -- Nuclear Reactor Technology-- Propulsion Reactors ;700200 -- Fusion Energy-- Fusion Power Plant Technology; SPACE PROPULSION REACTORS-- FEASIBILITY STUDIES;SPACECRAFT POWER SUPPLIES;TMR REACTORS-- SPACECRAFT POWER SUPPLIES; CHARGED PARTICLES;DEUTERIUM;EFFICIENCY;HELIUM;HELIUM 3;LAUNCHING;MAGNETIC MIRRORS;PROGRESS REPORT;PROTONS;RADIOACTIVITY
Related Subject BARYONS;DOCUMENT TYPES;ELECTRONIC EQUIPMENT;ELEMENTARY PARTICLES;ELEMENTS;EQUIPMENT;EVEN-ODD NUCLEI;FERMIONS;FLUIDS;GASES;HADRONS;HELIUM ISOTOPES;HYDROGEN ISOTOPES;ISOTOPES;LIGHT NUCLEI;MAGNETIC MIRROR TYPE REACTORS;MOBILE REACTORS;NONMETALS;NUCLEI;NUCLEONS;ODD-ODD NUCLEI;OPEN PLASMA DEVICES;POWER REACTORS;POWER SUPPLIES;PROPULSION REACTORS;RARE GASES;REACTORS;SPACE POWER REACTORS;STABLE ISOTOPES;THERMONUCLEAR DEVICES;THERMONUCLEAR REACTORS

Description/Abstract The preconceptual design of a Space Orbiting Advanced Fusion Power Reactor (SOAR), which delivers up to 1000 MWe for at least 600 s from an orbited mass of about 500 tonnes, was accomplished.^The power is produced by a magnetically confined D-3He plasma.^Approximately 96% of the fusion energy is in charged particles, and a direct converter has been designed which converts much of this energy into electricity at high net efficiency (about 80%).^An advanced shield design allows SOAR to deliver approximately 2 kilowatts of electricity for every kilogram of material orbited.^The shield is designed to absorb all rejected heat during operation, and no active radiator is required.^The SOAR reactor concept is designed to allow rapid startup and shutdown procedures.^The lack of radioactivity on launch and the low radioactive inventory after operation make the SOAR concept attractive from maintenance, safety and environmental perspectives.^The plasma physics approach extrapolates from the present plasma physics and fusion technology knowledge base using concepts which can be tested on existing or near-term devices.^The symbiosis of burst mode requirements, D-3He tandem mirror fusion reactor characteristics, and the space environment leads to a very high performance design concept.
Country of Publication United States
Language English
Format Pages: 57
Availability NTIS, PC A04/MF A01.

www.abovetopsecret.com...






[edit on 17-11-2007 by zorgon]

zorgon, where are you getting your data?

It sounds extremely believable, but the sheer scope and thoroughness of it leads me to question how you seem to have exclusive access to it?

If I sound offensive, I'm sorry but I'd like a little more clarity here

Originally posted by Loki
zorgon, where are you getting your data?

It sounds extremely believable, but the sheer scope and thoroughness of it leads me to question how you seem to have exclusive access to it?

LOL Friends in the right places...

BUT if you go to the thread I posted below the info you will find out... I did not post the direct link to OSTI because you need to see the context of what this technology means and its origins... So I sent you to the thread that has all the data and links and there is a lot more there

Exclusive? No everything I post is available in public domain... However it is usually found at DoD and other .mil sites....in this case OSTI... and usually found in long tedious boring PDF files.

But it really helps when you have a team searching Trouble is that some links I have posted like the warp drive paper at Los Alamos... have been pulled... it occurred to me that once linked to ATS I bet they get thousands of hits to a paper that may have only had a few views before...

edit to remove needless post (boys and girls...don't leave your browser open and come back to type a response later. It will make you look like a moron when someone steals your thunder).

[edit on 17-11-2007 by bigfatfurrytexan]

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan
(boys and girls...don't leave your browser open and come back to type a response later. It will make you look like a moron when someone steals your thunder).

Sorry Mr Furry but thanks for the thought... You didn't have to erase it

reply to post by MrPenny


I wonder how many people knew about the stealth fighter before it rolled out of the hanger and flew it's first mission? The military did a pretty good job of keeping that a secret. Also consider how many parts went into building, avionics, computer programing etc etc!

IMHO if the military, the DoD or NASA do not want you or the general public to know something about a project they are working on or a current programe, then believe me, you will not find much, if any, information in the public domain.

Gleaning information from .mil sites could also be hazardous to health, as some Brit guy found out. 70 years was it?

Those hangars at Groom Lake are not for growing tomatoes!

Originally posted by Havalon
reply to post by MrPenny

 

I wonder how many people knew about the stealth fighter before it rolled out of the hanger

Considering the Germans were trying to build one, quite many!

My point is this: in a more "closed" society, as opposed to "open" -- in the Soviet society, they still were masquerading military purpose space stationss as civilian (Salut series). Even with absolute control of the media and scary power over the populace, there was a cover story for every military launch. That's not a fluke. They knew that something will be leaked no matter what, and they wanted a plausible deniability.

In John Lear's world, the military managed to keep all of that completely underwraps and I find it unbelievable.

Originally posted by MrPenny
You suppose, for instance, you could give a thousand carpenters an individual 2 x 4, tell them exactly where to place their single contribution, and not a single one of them wouldn't eventually figure out they're building a 3 bedroom ranch?

Your analogy is flawed, and here, respectfully, is why:

Certainly "thousands" of people, if not more, contribute their efforts to the building of a "3 bedroom ranch," if you consider all the myriad parts that make up such a structure.

But only the carpenters on-site need to do the final assembly, and even they don't know how it's going to be decorated or landscaped, or for that matter, who's going to actually occupy the "3 bedroom ranch," how the occupants will put that space to use, or who their neighbors will be.

Do you think the person who makes the nails, knows where they'll be hammered?

Or the framer who assembles the roof joists, do you think they need to know the address of the structure they'll be a part of?

Does the drywaller, who finishes the walls know what color they'll be painted?

How about the roofer who shingles the garage, do they need to know what kind of car will be parked within?

Besides, when was the last time you saw a thousand carpenters all working on the same house?

Originally posted by MrPenny
There have to be architects, bosses, overseers, designers, engineers...

All employed by military contractors and sworn to a secrecy so binding, and under threat of punishment so harsh, they can't even tell their own family what they do.

Originally posted by MrPenny
..even lower level managers with the smarts to deduce what is going on.

And, one might add, the smarts to keep their deductions to themselves and their mouths shut, if they want to stay out of jail and keep their well-paid job.

Especially when it's a matter of "national security."

And they wouldn't need to know or be privy to the secrets at the top.

Remember, "the lie is different, for each layer of the "onion."

Originally posted by MrPenny
The "onion" analogy flies in the face of common sense. And trying to argue that position is tantamount to giving up your ability to think clearly.

Oh, I beg to differ, the "onion" analogy makes absolute perfect sense, common or otherwise.

Desperately clinging, as you are, in such a tenacious fashion to a position so counter to reason, begs the question; why?

Why, except to serve as a smokescreen, covering the futile grasping of the final last straws, from the poor strawman of this line of debate, as he goes up in flames.

Now, who brought the marshmallows?

reply to post by Havalon


Do you realize you're comparing a single airframe, built by a sole contractor, to what is allegedly regular moon and Mars missions since the mid 60s? Unfortunately, that doesn't wash. And despite the title of this thread, Mr. Lear has stated he believes there are eight secret space stations orbiting earth; supplied regularly by "anti-grav" craft and internationally operated.

The scale of the projects simply does not compare.