Originally posted by Muaddib
Maybe it has something to do with the fact that such people always derail threads to blame and bash at the U.S..... always....

The motto of ATS is still "deny ignorance" last i checked....perhaps some members should take that advice and start "denying ignorance" for once instead of embracing ignorance, making up claims, and exagerating just because they want to bash and blame the U.S. in every thread.....

So when a poster makes a comment you don't like they are "off topic" and when you decide to carry it on thats fine huh?

....i kind of doubt that...noone is perfect and as such every administration in every country has made mistakes including the U.S.......but derailing every thread and making exagerations just so you can feel better every day by blaming and bashing the U.S. in every thread does not help you in the least....it just shows that there are quite a few members who are willing to make up exagerations and stretch the truth because they want to blame everything on the United States...

Ah well I can't answer for everyone. As I see it theres scumbags on all sides.

Again, i see that you did not even have one sentence to actually discuss the topic at hand.....

Ah yes...this old chestnut again.

Its funny because The Coo just linked the article, posted up an excerpt from it and never set a premise for the thread at all - its a link and just appears to be up there for comments.

In case you had forgotten its an article about people being hung for allegedly plotting against the Iranian regime, with US backed support.

So who's thread is this and whats on and off topic?

In relation to the story, events in Iran, the current climate anything to do with the country, how its perceived, the rank hypocisy of those who condemn the Iranian justice system outright without taking into consideration history and their own countries legal system and failings (wherever they may be) is just about fair game I would say. As are comments about the US administration who may - or may not - be trying to subvert a sovereign nations current government.

The only topic you are concerned with people being off is you own. Well thats too bad. People have differeing opinions to yours. Its your perogative to try and play it your way but castigating people for putting their opinions forward is the HEIGHT of ignorance, and we're here to deny that, aren't we?

[edit on 21/0807/07 by neformore]

Originally posted by neformore
...................
The only topic you are concerned with people being off is you own. Well thats too bad. People have differeing opinions to yours. Its your perogative to try and play it your way but castigating people for putting their opinions forward is the HEIGHT of ignorance, and we're here to deny that, aren't we?

That would only have been true if I was the only member saying this....but several other members have said the same thing in this thread, I am not the only member who sees what you, and some other members keep doing constantly...

BTW, the claim that because of the past history of the U.S. and other countries this means we can't discuss and judge what regimes like Iran are doing is the same thing as claiming that "the world shouldn't be advancing because of our past mistakes"... Such a claim does not make sense... Of maybe you think we should all go back to living in caves and going back to the dark ages because of "our past mistakes"?....

[edit on 21-8-2007 by Muaddib]

Originally posted by Muaddib
That would only have been true if I was the only member saying this....but several other members have said the same thing in this thread, I am not the only member who sees what you, and some other members keep doing constantly...

Well you need to actually read what I said, because you obviously haven't. I merely pointed out that Iranians in their own country do things their own way, and that its no one elses business. I also addressed the issue about Iran being percieved as a "bogeyman". The only time I mentioned the US was to say that Iran is different from it. Its all there in glorious 10pt Arial above for everyone to read.

As for what "you, and some other members keep doing constantly..." well, thats an interesting comment. People have differing opinions to you. Are you advocating censorship and suggesting they not be allowed to express them? Maybe they are as sick to death of your viewpoint as you appear to be of theirs?

BTW, the claim that because of the past history of the U.S. and other countries this means we can't discuss and judge what regimes like Iran are doing is the same thing as claiming that "the world shouldn't be advancing because of our past mistakes"... Such a claim does not make sense... Of maybe you think we should all go back to living in caves and going back to the dark ages because of "our past mistakes"?....

People advance at their own pace. What you considered to be advanced comes from the viewpoint of the position you are in. You can't force "advancement" on anyone, it comes from free will, self determination and popular thinking on their part, and if their culture is significantly different what they deem to be "advanced" may not have any bearing on what you consider to be. You are trying to make an absolute out of a relative position.

Originally posted by neformore
People advance at their own pace. What you considered to be advanced comes from the viewpoint of the position you are in. You can't force "advancement" on anyone, it comes from free will, self determination and popular thinking on their part, and if their culture is significantly different what they deem to be "advanced" may not have any bearing on what you consider to be.

On that note, didn't we used to use public hanging as a crime deterrent? I bet crime rates in Iran aren't as bad as US/UK. Not that I necessarily agree with public hangings, but that was part of the course we took to creating the functioning society we have today, maybe Iran will follow in our footsteps and eventually abolish them as well?

But by the time they reach our current state of society, we'll probably have moved onto something else and still be complaining about how other countries do things differently lol

fw 50 years UK - "Martial law is the way to go! I don't see why those stupid Iranians like to let everyone run around doing what they want! It's like they're living in the dark ages!"

Originally posted by neformore
............
As for what "you, and some other members keep doing constantly..." well, thats an interesting comment. People have differing opinions to you. Are you advocating censorship and suggesting they not be allowed to express them? Maybe they are as sick to death of your viewpoint as you appear to be of theirs?

The fact of the matter is, this is a public forum and it has rules, part of that rule is "to stay on topic"... We are also trying to "ideny ignorance" supposedly, you don't deny ignorance by making # up and bashing and blaming a country like the U.S....much less when the thread is about people being hanged in Iran because the Iranian regime claims they were plotting "soft revolutions"....

Originally posted by neformore
People advance at their own pace. What you considered to be advanced comes from the viewpoint of the position you are in. You can't force "advancement" on anyone, it comes from free will, self determination and popular thinking on their part, and if their culture is significantly different what they deem to be "advanced" may not have any bearing on what you consider to be. You are trying to make an absolute out of a relative position.

Yes, people are entitled to define their own future, but i also have a right to state my opinion on what I think on a certain issue.... This is a "public forum after all.... or are you trying to "advocate censorship when people's opinions differ from your own"?......

[edit on 21-8-2007 by Muaddib]

Originally posted by Muaddib
The fact of the matter is, this is a public forum and it has rules, part of that rule is "to stay on topic"... We are also trying to "ideny ignorance" supposedly, you don't deny ignorance by making # up and bashing and blaming a country like the U.S....much less when the thread is about people being hanged in Iran because the Iranian regime claims they were plotting "soft revolutions"....

And as I pointed out above, there is nothing "off topic" on this thread, because no specific topic was defined by the OP, and the news story itself lays open a whole swathe of angles that people can come at it from. As for "making # up" - who has done that? They may have stated things that you don't agree with - well tough - its not a perfect world.

Yes, people are entitled to define their own future, but i also have a right to state my opinion on what I think on a certain issue.... This is a "public forum after all.... or are you trying to "advocate censorship when people's opinions differ from your own"?......

Lame and particularly transparent attempt at trying to turn round what I've written. I never said you weren't entitled to your own opinion, what I said was that other people are perfectly entitled to express their own, even if it contradicts yours.

Originally posted by Muaddib
much less when the thread is about people being hanged in Iran because the Iranian regime claims they were plotting "soft revolutions"....

The Iranian regime claims they are executing people who commited rape, kidnapping, theft and committing indecent act.

The Guardian article (and you) claims Iranian regime is executing political dissidents.

Anyway,

this executions are realy counterproductive. In not so recent past there was a bloody "pro-western" regime where a shah used his notorious secret police to clamp down any political and religious movement that was against his rule, hence an islamic revolution. Today Ahmedinejad's regime is using the same tactics. IMO there is only a question of time when this regime will execute the wrong "activist" or an activist too many and they will meet the same fate.

Ah i see, so as long as "any topic is diverted to bash and blame the U.S. it is not derailing a topic"....

I am pretty sure that if i had shown some facts about the war in Iraq, because you gave a passing statements about that war in this thread..., I would be given a warning, or a straight red flag as it has happened everytime I repond to some members making allegations about the U.S. when that was not the topic of discussion....

Oh and BTW nefermore, you are from England, so because of your country's past agressions, which are far worse than the U.S. has done, you shouldn't be trying to criticize the U.S..... After all your country was even opressing the American colonies and tried to supress Americans to your country's will...

Oh and that's not going off topic since "this is an open thread and the OP apparently didn't set the topic just to be about the hangings in Iran because the Iranians were supposedly instigating a "soft revolution"....

[edit on 21-8-2007 by Muaddib]

Originally posted by yanchek

The Iranian regime claims they are executing people who commited rape, kidnapping, theft and committing indecent act.

The Guardian article (and you) claims Iranian regime is executing political dissidents.

The Iranian regime claims that yes, and i excerpted from Iranians who also are saying the Iranian regime is making claims and executing people for not agreeing with the Iranian regime.... i gave also an example of one Irani American who was arrested when she went to visit her mother in Iran and the regime in Iran claimed she was also instigating a soft revolution over there when the facts speak for themselves that she wasn't.

Originally posted by Muaddib
Oh and BTW nefermore, you are from England, so because of your country's past agressions, which are far worse than the U.S. has done, you shouldn't be trying to criticize the U.S..... After all your country was even opressing the American colonies and tried to supress Americans to your country's will...

Have I criticised the US in this thread?

If so please show me where.

If not, apologise for making assumptions.

Country.........Prison pop..........Pop. per 100,000

US.................2,193,798..................737

CHINA............1,548,498.................118

RUSSIA............874,161..................615

Source International center for Prison Studies

Ratio U.S. population 5% of world population; 25% of world's prisoners

[edit on 21-8-2007 by grover]

Originally posted by grover
However, the United States imprisons far more people from a wider number of crimes than any other of the so-called first world nations, and we are the only one among them who still execute so really, we have no room to criticize Iran. We try some as adults well under the age of majority based on their crimes and it it weren't for a supreme court ruling we would continue executing the mentally impaired and challenged with impunity.

We are not so civilized.

This thread really has nothing to do with the "prison system of the U.S." or the "death penalty of the U.S." or any of the myriad of issues about "the U.S." yet I all i keep seeing is some members wanteing to turn this into a hate fest against the U.S....

Originally posted by grover
BTW you have shown in repeated posts Muaddib that you are extremely biased and prejudiced against both Muslims in general and Iranians especially so don't try and hide your bigotry by claiming those who disagree with you are bashing America.

I beg your pardon?..... Never have i made any "biased or prejudiced" statements against all Muslims.... and i am getting tired of your inflammatory posts and your claims that I am prejudiced against Muslims when every one of my threads I have stated the difference between Muslim extremists and moderate Muslims.... i have never made any "biased or prejudiced" posts against moderate Muslims, and there are several posts of mine where I show the problem that Muslim extremists are murdering moderate Muslims.....

Do you think moderate Muslims love Muslim extremists when they are being murdered by the extremists?.... Does that make the moderate Muslims "biased and prejudiced" against the Muslims extremists?....

I guess according to grover people should love the Islamic extremists who have murdered millions of people.....

(changed statement to stay on topic)


[edit on 21-8-2007 by Muaddib]

Originally posted by neformore
Have I criticised the US in this thread?

If so please show me where.

If not, apologise for making assumptions.

Heh?....

Humnm...let's see...

On page 4 you state...

Originally posted by neformore
So if an Iranian stands up and accuses the US of being evil because of its Human Rights Record, the fact that it uses the Death Penalty and the fact that it carried out a completley unprovoked attack against a sovereign nation then they'd be perfectly justified in their opinion I guess?

What does the U.S. death penalty, or the war in Iraq, or the U.S. human right records have to do with the Iranian regime hanging people which the Iranian regime claimed were plotting a soft revolution?....

Perhaps you shouldn't be responding to this thread at all since you are British, and your country has "trully" invaded countries, opressed people around the world, and your country doesn't have a clean "human Rights Record either"......

Should we derail this thread to see other countries "human rights record", or "the death penalty", or any of the other off topic generalized comments other members have made?....

I also wonder what your comment on "warmongers" on this thread was all about.....or what your comments about the present U.S. administration have to do with these hangings...

So how about you apologize for dragging this thread off topic alongside other members. Your country has no "clean record" and until recently was still invading and causing mass murders in northern Ireland........ So you shouldn't be making any comments about the United States....

The height of hypocrisy for a Briton to make generalizations about the U.S. because of the U.S. past....

Are any in your family members in the military, or any of your friends?..... If so they participated in the opression of people in Ireland for centuries, and are/were soldiers in an Army which murdered hundreds of thousands in Ireland alone....

Not to mention the fact that it was your country which opressed the American colonies, and your country was the one who taught the Native Americans on how to scalp people since the Brittish soldiers were known to scalp Native American men, women and kids before the Native Americans began doing the same..... Your country opressed what was to become the United States until our forefathers fought for the Independence of the U.S....

How do you like my "generalized comments" about your country?....

In fact, since people are so intent in derailing the thread lets actually take a look at the "death penalty", the "prison systems of the world", and every other off topic ramark made in this thread....

Should i keep derailing the thread and start posting the facts behind the generalizations so many members have made in this thread?......

[edit on 21-8-2007 by Muaddib]

[Mod Edit: Removed completely off topic personal attack. If members wish to complain please remember you can make use of the complaint/suggestion button in your member center. If you wish clarification over this matter please feel free to U2U me - Jak]

[edit on 22/8/07 by JAK]

What do I have to do with the topic?

Use the complaints function, or organize an effigy burning in your home town - just don't derail the thread any further.

You could have used that space to respond to any of the points I raised.

Originally posted by WyrdeOne
If you can't be bothered to check your facts, at least display some self-preservation instinct by moderating your statements and the tone in which they're delivered. Word to the wise...

Again, you seem to want to dismiss that Amnesty themselves provided a quote from one of China's senior officers who works in the highest state in China saying they execute around 10,000 people.....

I am not going to post it again since I have already done it twice explaining it yet somehow it seems that your eyes do not see those excerpts and where the informaiton comes from...

The whole issue in that particular case was about the 10,000 Chinese people being executed.... You have been shown where that figure comes from, yet it seems as if to you that figure, the excerpts and links given to back it up do not exist..... Which only shows your inability to acknowledge you were wrong.

If you would have simply stated you were wrong this particular argument would have ended right there....

Originally posted by WyrdeOne
muaddib
It appears that there was a lot of repetition in your post, so I'm not going to go quote by quote. For the sake of brevity - I've concluded that we disagree on the sort of cases where the death penalty is an acceptable sentence, and little else pertaining to this discussion.

If there is repetition in some of my responses is due to the fact that you seem to be either purposely ignoring facts, or you just want to act as if those excerpts given did not contradict your claim and proved you were wrong...

Originally posted by WyrdeOne
People bring up America because they want y'all to understand the concept of hypocrisy. If there's one thing that can help every human being equally, it's the ability to see the flaws of others in themselves. It's not designed to excuse the misdeeds of Iranians, but to illustrate how we might all learn a lesson from this story, and better ourselves.

No, it is clear by now and several members have agreed with me that the real reason pretty much every thread is being derailed for "hate fests against the U.S.' is just because some members just want to bash and blame the U.S. and they want to claim all the evils in the world are happening because the United States....

The hypocrisy comes from every one of those members who want to claim that because of the U.S. past transgressions, no U.S. citizen should be trying to criticize actions of the Iranian regime....when some of those members are Brittish and their country has made more transgressions than the United States has done....others are "self proclaimed revolutionaries" who have as heroes murderers such as "Che Guevara" and have tried on several ocassions to claim the murders done by "revolutionaries' were caused by the U.S....

I could point to the "hypocrisy" of every member who in this thread has been derailing it, just so they can feel better after bashing and blaming the United States for an action which was done by the Iranian regime....

Originally posted by WyrdeOne
"I disagree with the execution of 16 yr old girls, so maybe I should open my ears the next time someone tells me they disagree with the execution of x..."

It is totally different for example to have the death penalty against known murderers, than having the death penalty for a 16 year old for having a sharp mouth....or being executed for having a difference of opinion from the regime of Iran....

Because i am a proponent of the death penalty against known murderers, and even rapists, doesn't mean I must agree with the death penalty of 16 year old girls whose only transition is "having a sharp mouth".... or having to agree with the death penalty of people's whose only transgression is having a different opinion than the regime in Iran....

[edit on 22-8-2007 by Muaddib]

BTW WyrdeOne, isn't it unfair that you are asking seeingevil to stay on topic when you have participate in derailing the thread and allowed other members to derail the thread? If you ask me, yes it is very unfair, and I am sure several other members would also say the same.