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Iran Hangs 30 people Over 'U.S. Plots'

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posted on Aug, 20 2007 @ 09:08 AM
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Originally posted by infinite
Nice to see "someone" is still on the same old, same old slogans again...


If you are talking about yourself yes, we noticed.



Originally posted by infinite
If only you said that when I asked you a question regarding the death penalty, I wouldn't gone into rant mode


Well you see, the thing is that I didn't want to derail the thread, since the thread is not about the validity of the death penalty.....



Originally posted by infinite
The same happens in China, North Korea, Saudi Arabia and Cuba (i think) and Russia locks people up in Mental hospitals. This isn't a local problem.

This is an international problem that needs to be addressed urgently.


ah, so are you now proposing that we need a "one World Government"?




posted on Aug, 20 2007 @ 09:13 AM
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Originally posted by Muaddib
ah, so are you now proposing that we need a "one World Government"?


No don't be silly,

We can get an international agreement of this, I mean we have agreements on many other issues. So there is no reason why we can't.

Sadly, a dozen nations like Russia and China will not support it.

However, the Iranian public are sick of this current government and its likely they'll revolt soon if the regime becomes more paranoid of it's citizens and the west.



posted on Aug, 20 2007 @ 09:22 AM
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Originally posted by Peyre



maybe that the Americans and the West have moved on from the dark ages, and the Islamic world hasn't?



[edit: removed unnecessary quote of entire previous post]
Quoting - Please review this link

[edit on 20-8-2007 by 12m8keall2c]

A lot of America is still in the dark ages!!! For one look at the bible belt that is Texas, it's full of god-fearing zealots.
The funny thing is Texas has the highest christian(i'm not spelling it with a capitol) population in the world, yet it has the highest murder,rape and burglary rate in America.



posted on Aug, 20 2007 @ 09:33 AM
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I must apologize if my earlier reply may have veered too much off course, but may I say without being disrepectful that the reason that people went into the direction of the death penalty was probably not intentional but because, most people realize that what happened were executions, in the context of the average American the first thoughts that probably materialize with that is the DEATH PENALTY unfortunately but it is more fact than fiction.

I think that if Iran has penalties for espionage against those who were executed, it really is no different policy than we have as a remedy for treason or corroborating with enemies and in America where one has committed a death row worthy crime.

I do not like monolithic 1 liner threads that really do not define in terms what is expected as the actual focal point of discussion when the door really is left open to mostly opinion and interpretation.

When this happens it should be expected that a related and closely connected topic spins off, I think that headliners like this attempt to villanize Iran as somehow much worse off than other states in some way or make them out as less civilized, for instance if we did not have execution and death penalty as a punishment anywhere in the U.S. it would be easy to point fingers and take the "shame on them" stance and point fingers speaking out loudly about it, this is probably the reason why people went directly to the Death penalty replies in order to minimize the hippocracy that probably would ensue in the discussions.

All it comes down to is the degree of the punishment deemed by the state and especially in times of war or crisis, and that really is the business of that state, just like in America right???? to me any form of execution by any state carried out is really a human rights issue and there is no degree of separation between the end punishment and finality of DEATH and proxy MURDER, the only difference to me and what the discussion should be about are really rooted within the actions or crime the poor soul has supposedly commited that causes that punishment to be invoked.



posted on Aug, 20 2007 @ 09:35 AM
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reply to post by SKUNK2
 



Originally posted by SKUNK2
A lot of America is still in the dark ages!!! For one look at the bible belt that is Texas, it's full of god-fearing zealots.
The funny thing is Texas has the highest christian(i'm not spelling it with a capitol) population in the world, yet it has the highest murder,rape and burglary rate in America.

Another example of thread derailment. And, btw, your "facts" are wrong. Lets leave it at that, unless you want to start a new thread about crime in America.



posted on Aug, 20 2007 @ 09:49 AM
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Come on one and all,lets stop slagging each other off and stick to the topic-Has anyone found any proof to link the USA(in this particular instance only)to these 30 dead Iranians-
Weather you love/hate bushco/amadinajad is immaterial to the subject here.
Is there evidence to support the OPs origianal news source is what I want to know.



posted on Aug, 20 2007 @ 09:52 AM
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Originally posted by Souljah

That was not a derail - but merely a contribute to the title here, which has "U.S. plots" written in quotation marks, as if there are no covert operations right now in progress in Iran, sponsored by the U.S.


First you have to prove these men who were hanged were actually plotting the violent overthrow of the Iranian government..... Noone has been able to prove that, and quoting about "supposed U.S. operations" won't prove these men were trying to violently overthrow the Iranian government...

The Iranian regime has "accused", and in many cases murdered by hanging Iranians who "the regime claimed" were instigating a "soft revolution"....

Lets see one example of who the Iranian regime claims is instigating a "soft revolution" in Iran, and let's see the background of that person....


Iran accuses US academic of instigating 'soft revolution'


Robert Tait in Tehran
Wednesday May 23, 2007
The Guardian


A US academic arrested during a family visit to Iran has been accused of trying to overthrow the country's Islamic system amid growing fears of a general crackdown against intellectuals with western ties.
Haleh Esfandiari, Middle East director at the Woodrow Wilson Centre, a Washington-based thinktank, has been accused of fomenting a "soft revolution" by forming a network "against the sovereignty of the country"
...................
However, Lee Hamilton, president of the Wilson Centre and a former Democratic congressman, dismissed them as totally unfounded. "Haleh has not engaged in any activities to undermine any government, including the Iranian government," he said. "There is not one scintilla of evidence to support these outrageous claims," he said.

The accusations against Ms Esfandiari, whose husband is Jewish, follow claims by the Kayhan newspaper - thought to be close to Iran's leadership - that she belonged to the American-Israeli Public Affairs Committee, a pro-Israel lobby group.

The accusations follow a series of recent arrests of Iranians with western connections. This month, Hossein Mousavian, a former nuclear negotiator and ambassador to Germany, was arrested on spying charges before being released on bail. Parnaz Azima, a journalist with the US-funded Radio Farda, has been prevented from leaving Iran since January after her passport was confiscated.

www.guardian.co.uk...

Humm, the "Woodrow Wilson Center"...it surely sounds evil heh?...

Let's actually take a look at this institute....


Woodrow Wilson International Center for Scholars

en.wikipedia.org...

Oh...so that is the real complete name of this centre...I wonder why the "Guardian Unlimited" did not include the entire name....

Let's see some of those evil violent overthrows that "Woodrow Wilson International Center for Scholars" are planning heh?.....


The Woodrow Wilson International Center for Scholars (or Wilson Center) (located in Washington, D.C.) is a United States Presidential Memorial that was established as part of the Smithsonian Institution by act of Congress in 1968. Named in honor of President Woodrow Wilson (the only President of the United States with a Ph.D.), its mission is:

“to commemorate the ideals and concerns of Woodrow Wilson by: providing a link between the world of ideas and the world of policy; and fostering research, study, discussion, and collaboration among a full spectrum of individuals concerned with policy and scholarship in national and world affairs.”
.........................
It is a nonpartisan institution supported by public and private funds, engaged in the study of national and world affairs. The Center establishes and maintains a lively, neutral forum for free and informed dialogue. The mission of the Center is to commemorate the ideals and concerns of Woodrow Wilson by providing a link between the world of ideas and the world of policy. The Center also focuses on fostering research, study, discussion, and collaboration among a full spectrum of individuals concerned with policy and scholarship in national and world affairs. Its location in the U.S. capital makes the Center a unique nonpartisan meeting ground where vital current issues and their deep historical background may be explored through research and dialogue. The Center is charged by the Woodrow Wilson Memorial Act with symbolizing and strengthening the fruitful relations between the world of learning and the world of public affairs. The Center encourages contacts among scholars, policymakers, and business leaders and extends their conversations worldwide through its publishing, broadcasting, and Internet programs.

en.wikipedia.org...

Wow, it surely sounds menacing......yep, they should put in jail, actually hang since we are talking about Iran, everyone of those people who dare to be part of this evil group.....

Back to the real world the Iranian regime is executing Iranians because they claim they are "instigating a soft revolution"...they are hanging 16 year old girls because "they have a sharp mouth" and are hanging Iranians for lesser offenses...but it is ok, the U.S. has the death penalty for serious murder crimes....that's the excuse from the left that it is ok for the Iranian regime to execute people who "have a difference of opinion".....



Originally posted by Souljah
intelligence agencies. That is like, Homeland security would catch 30 iranian agents working in the United States to overthrow the current government. I wonder what would their sentance be....


It depends...if those Iranians were just talking about a soft revolution in the U.S., they would probably recieve funding from several of the left groups....

If they were plotting terrorist attacks, or to assassinate anyone they would get to jail....Unless the left groups would get together and claim the Iranians were just expressing their right to free speech..... Neither offense would give them the death penalty....

If they murdered someone, whoever it was, they will probably get the death penalty...

Again, back in the real world this thread is about the Iranian government claiming the Iranians they hanged were instigating a soft revolution"........

[edit on 20-8-2007 by Muaddib]



posted on Aug, 20 2007 @ 11:07 AM
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One thing I dont understand. Why is Texas the state where they execute the most peopple in USA?
Isnt that the deeply christian state?
How about thou shal not kill? One of their commandments?
Beats me...



posted on Aug, 20 2007 @ 12:09 PM
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You know, Muaddib, for someone who bleats on about people derailing threads, you sure do manage to whack out alot of complaints about "Bush haters" that have nothing to do with the topic at hand.

And in answer to your question, yes I know what a warmonger is, and yes, I used it in the correct context and - as I explained previously - it was more of a social commentary.

You never answered the substance of my post, you only nitpicked at one part of it, which isn't suprising really


But hey, I'll derail the thread a bit further before I withdraw from it with this comment, which is just as valid as anything you have posted.

There are some people on ATS who believe that the Bush Administration and America can do no wrong at all. Regardless of the topics at hand. They present as much of a polarised view as the "Bush Haters" to which you refer. Criticising one side, whilst being a card carrying member of the other is hypocritical. I'm sure you will agree.



posted on Aug, 20 2007 @ 02:41 PM
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Originally posted by DJMessiah

Originally posted by Peyre
maybe that the Americans and the West have moved on from the dark ages, and the Islamic world hasn't?


By "moved from the dark ages" do you mean tolerance not only based on race but on religion too, because I have yet to see it?

[edit on 19-8-2007 by DJMessiah]


oh really, so you don't see how multiculturalism thrives in the UK and Europe and even in the US.

Come and see what life is like in London for instance



posted on Aug, 20 2007 @ 03:12 PM
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My one thought in this discussion regards the relevance of this type of report in western media outlets. Without doubt, there is injustice in many executions carried out in Iran. I think we can all agree on this, be it over apostasy, homosexuality, adultery, etc etc.

However, I am skeptical of the intent at which these stories are reported in the media. Articles of this type serve to mobilize both anger and righteousness--

We are angered at the idea of people being murdered for social alignments and motives void of any dangerous or threatening action. As citizens of a country steeped in a tradition of civil rights and individual freedom, this is completely unacceptable.

From this point, the righteous concern of our minds is activated. If such an unacceptable injustice exists in Iran, we, as citizens of a nation that respects fundamental human rights, must stand against such executions and take action to prevent their occurrence.

This philosophy, to me, is all well and good, but ignores the deeper picture of what is happening within our media and it's reportage of Iran. We live in a world subjugated by unacceptable injustice. Many of the members posting on this board have described such things, be it the within the government of China, the genocide in Darfur, or throughout the justice system in the US itself.

Yet many of these issues go by largely unaddressed by the media and government. Thousands executed in china (and more forced into the slow-death of labor encampment), hundreds of thousands displaced, starving and dying in Darfur, and scores of Americans on death row exonerated in the appeals process (many post-mortem). Clearly, there is enough injustice to go around.

However, it is the injustice of one nation, Iran, which becomes the most unaccepted. This, in the face of greater problems elsewhere and issues at home, where we could actually do SOMETHING about it. But no great force is mobilizing domestically or on the shores of China or borders of the Darfur region. No, instead, the drum beat for action against Iran drowns out the cries of innocent people at home and abroad.

Now, consider Iraq. Many of the sames stories of injustice preceded it's invasion. We were angered, disgusted, and the righteous hand of America rose to put an end to it all (there was something about WMDs too, but moving on). Yet years have gone by and the situation has gone from bad to worse. With no central or respected power, people in Iraq are now executed by uncontrolled, scattered groups and individuals for reasons as fundamental as religious belief. Our army is powerless to stop this, and more often than not exists as a further source of agitation. Since the injustice of Saddam's Iraq was ended, a whole new era of thoughtless bloodshed has arisen.

So, to refocus my argument on this post, let me ask the readers a question. What can we possibly do to stop such injustice from happening in Iran? If we did move to change this regime, what could be done to prevent a situation comparable to Iraq?

In my opinion, we can do nothing, and anything we could do would serve to create an environment that propagates further injustice. That is why i question the authenticity of our media/government's concern for such injustice, given its lack of similar disgust for greater issues at home and elsewhere. Truth be told, our leaders care very little for those 30 people murdered in Iran. To them, these victims are another element at their disposal, to be used to influence public opinion in a global conflict that has more to do with the economy than human rights.

Yet, quite understandably, its very difficult to start a war for monetary reasons. You need human strife, suffering, and injustice to mobilize the American conscious. And this story will feed that mobilization.

Come on people, stop wasting your time on this propaganda and research Darfur. Or the Innocence Project. Please.



posted on Aug, 20 2007 @ 03:39 PM
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Muad I agree with you Iran is a dictatorship with draconian laws, but the alternative, the US nuking them back to the stone age is good is it.

I notice your avatar, your going to have your hands full fighting all the Nazis in the US, the newly emerging dictatorship, one that assumes it has the right to invade sovereign nations for its own greed and power.

Change does need to be brought about within Iran, but it should be done by its own people not by some murderous carpet bagging nation who's only interest is to steal its natural resources and protect its zionists friends.



posted on Aug, 20 2007 @ 03:58 PM
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reply to post by chaeone86
 


Remember, this article appeared in a British publication. And the world should be righteously outraged over such human rights violations. If the media were to highlight Darfur, I'm pretty sure that they would be the recipients of outrage, also.

The only reason that the US is part of this discussion is because it is impossible for some to discuss transgressions in another country without bringing up the US. Never Venezuela, or China, or Cuba, or any other country. Just the US. It's a hardwired response, you see.



posted on Aug, 20 2007 @ 04:14 PM
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Originally posted by jsobecky
The only reason that the US is part of this discussion is because it is impossible for some to discuss transgressions in another country without bringing up the US. Never Venezuela, or China, or Cuba, or any other country. Just the US. It's a hardwired response, you see.


I've come to realize that all thread in which the US can be blamed or made to look like a dis-info agent, will simply degrade into such a thing in a very small amount of time. Evidence = disinfo only when it comes from the US. People will take an Iranian state published paper over anything published in the US...

While I understand that this is a free thinking board and all, someone should seriously work on keeping threads on track. Free exchange doesn't mean allowing emotion to trump reason.



posted on Aug, 20 2007 @ 04:36 PM
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reply to post by jsobecky
 


jsobecky-

yes, I understand that this was published in the UK. That being said, I would like to clarify that my post was more about the mounting case for war here in the US than a criticism of the article itself. Also, my term "western media" should be seen as inclusive of sources throughout Europe as well as the USA.

You speak volumes towards my point tho in stating that this sort of news does solicit a knee-jerk response for American readers. Thank you for being so on the mark with that.

Since World War II many in the US have embraced the idea that our country is somehow the human rights enforcer to the rest of the world. This whole idea is false in its own merits, and has been a tool used by members of the government since.

Contrary to popular belief, the US entrance into WWII was not a humaniarian effort. It was a pragmatic move to supress a growing Nazi presence in Europe, a presence that threatened US interests moreso econnomically than militarily. Indeed, this was a nessecary mission. The American economy was in a fragile and benefitted from a wartime boom. And, the war effort surely solidified US power throughout the world post war.

Yet, as I will remind readers, we did not enter that war to end the holocaust. In fact, we did not discover much of the Nazi genocide until AFTER the conflict drew to an end. Truth be told, it was well known that Hitler's germany was marginalizing jews and dissidents in questionable ways. But that was a retrospective discovery. We had no idea what was really happening until we were already there.

For this reason, I must assert that the Humantarian reputation the US has made for itself post WWII was, and still is, a creation. It was a title we bumped into accidently, and were all too ready to embrace and exploit. Since that time, we have entered and initiated several conflicts under the veil of humantarian righteousness, only to discover years later that this motive was merely a prop our leaders used to mobilize a worried public. Vietnam speaks to this in volumes. We stand more than 40 years since the beginning of that war and are still just learning of how American financiers (who exert proxy control over washington through lobbyists) played both sides of that conflict for their own gain.

Now, we are witnessing the same pattern of mobilization and are buying into it just as easily. Like the widely trashed "domino effect" theory of the Vietnam war, we are subjected to the backwards philosophy that military intervention and the democratization of the middle east is the only way to stop a viral spread of islamo-facist terrorism. This is so unbelievably flawed. As demonstrated in elections in Palestine, democracy does not moderate islamic extremism. If such a sentiment exists within a majority, citizens will elect so called "extremists." Anything suggesting otherwise is just broad brush propaganda.

With this in mind, I'm not trying to suggest that there is some massive conspiracy controlling the media and government to trick people into unnessecary war. Its much more subtle than that. Now, decades after WWII and years into the "global war on terror," Americans are all but ready to fight wars that our government deems humanitairly urgent. With this motivation in place, media outlets are susceptible to pandering to this absurd notion. Who can blame them? For more than 50 years this idea has been so deeply ingrained in the American pysche.

Unfortunately, long term indications have proven that such wars rarely result in the way our politicians purport them to. Yet, once again, the common man has very little interest in long term analysis, and after a life of being told he, as a US citizen, is a representative and enforcer of justice, he would rather take up arms then stop and consider such a false rationale.



posted on Aug, 20 2007 @ 08:06 PM
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reply to post by chaeone86
 


Your post brings out many very interesting points, and would make for a good discussion. In the interest of keeping this thread on topic, tho, they would fit better in a thread of their own. Start one and I'll be there.



posted on Aug, 21 2007 @ 12:15 AM
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SeeingEvil


Uhmm, maybe from Amnesty, the very source you claim you checked with?


Check again.


Amnesty said 1770, and 'Chinese Academics' estimated 10000. Are we reading the same links?



Honestly WyrdeOne if this had been an official debate over in the debate forum, Muaddib would have won it by a landslide in my opinion.


Well, that's your opinion. If you can formulate a suitable debate question, and Muaddib agrees, I'd be happy to debate him on the issue of Iranian executions.

Muaddib


Wyrdeone, the united States does not execute people for "having a sharp tongue", or for "being political prisoners", they do this in Iran and some other countries.


Presumably the 'sharp tongue' judge is a hardliner to beat all hardliners. However, they certainly do have a culture that values respect, self-control and deference very highly, and if the girl was mouthing-off in court and blaming others for her behavior it's not really that strange that the judge sought to make an example of her. I shouldn't even have to say this but I do - I disagree with the logic behind executing people (or punishing them at all) for moral offences, victimless crimes, and the like, but I can't tell the Iranians how to run their country any more than they can tell me how to run mine.

We actually share most of the moral/social values of the Iranians (*most), but the obvious difference is that they go so far as to legislate more of their morality than we do. As I've said numerous times, I disagree with their laws: I wouldn't live there if you paid me.

And as far as 'political prisoners' I believe I've addressed this issue already. Sedition is sedition, no matter how you slice it. The people who broke the law knew the consequences and they braved them for a chance at doing some good for their countrymen and their country. With any luck, their sacrifice will not be in vain, and there will be a popular revolution before too long.



Ah, so even if it comes from the horses' mouth as to the reason for executions, such as the 16 year old girl having a "sharp mouth" "it is a moot point" now?


This story is hard to piece together: there are no court transcripts available, and the details change depending on where you read them. I've gone and found a couple other sources detailing the facts of the case because it seemed unbelievable to me. It's pretty accurate though, the story y'all tell - at least as far as the few sources readily available...

Link 1

Link 2

I'd like to take more time and try to figure out if all the accounts track back to one questionable source as stories of this sort often do.

She was 16 according to her birth certificate, but the judge declared her 22 based on her physique. She had been arrested multiple times for non-crimes like attending a party, dressing indecently, having sex out of wedlock. She shouted at the judge and threw off her veil in court. One article claimed there was a petition from locals saying she was a bad influence on other girls, and a font of indecency - but the petition was only signed by the arresting officers...

There's a lot more to this - does it have its own thread? If it doesn't, I'll start one and we can talk about this one case more.

What more can I say, besides what's already been said - the law is as foolish as one you're likely to find. Crimes against chastity? Nonsense.

Things change when people sacrifice themselves for ideals. Maybe this young girl will spearhead the coming change in Iran - equality or death. Sounds like a motto I could agree with. A man probably wouldn't have been executed for her crimes, or even charged with them in some cases.



No WyrdeOne, there is a big difference between having a difference of opinion, even politically, and having political demonstrations, and murdering people due to any reason....


Wait, was someone executed for protesting or having a difference of opinion? I must have missed that link. Regardless, remember that there as in here, a difference of opinion regarding the law does not give you license to disregard the law.

I do, however, support those who disobey the law as a form of protest against it. Doesn't make you immune to the consequences though, as everyone should by now be aware.



It was me who said that....and again, you are leaving out a fact...those people are not executed for being retarded...they have been executed for murdering someone...


I'm not leaving out the fact, I just don't see how it's relevant. I think it's wrong that the state kills people with the intelligence of children. That's the law though. Reasonable men can disagree, isn't that right?



First of all, it was a bit more than just for robbing chocolate....


Yeah, as I said, the men I referenced appear on first glance to be scumbags, and no big loss for society. Not the point though.

The point, if you remember, was that many people in this nation disagree with the three strikes concept, and with the execution of mentally handicapped people or people of a younger age, but the nation continues (in some states) to put these people to death.

It's pretty much the same in Iran, different regions are more religious and/or more extreme than others. The same girl, behaving the same way, in a more laid-back part of Iran might not have raised too many eyebrows.

If you continue to dig into the story, it appears she had a sexual relationship with a married member of the moral police. So, there's a lot about that story than meets the eye. It provides a convenient excuse for people looking to inflame popular sentiment though...



When a person who has committed two previous serious or violent crimes before, continues to show that he/she will rob again, even when they know at the third strike they will land in jail for 25 years, there is a high probability that person will perform another "serious or violent crime"... hence 25 years in prison stops them from commiting a "serious or violent crime". That is the intention of the "Three Strikes" law, to avoid any possible "serious or violent crimes being performed.


Sounds very similar to the logic being used to justify the insane execution of a (possibly) promiscuous young Iranian girl. She was likely to continue to break the law, so they killed her to stop that possibility. Is there anything to your continued argument besides your opinion over the relative wrongness of this execution? How many times do I have to agree with you on that point before you cease making it?

My argument, from the beginning, was that it is the right of the Iranian citizenry to make and enforce their laws. I insist on their right to do so only because I insist on OUR right to do so. Are we even in disagreement? I can't tell anymore...



Well fella, you did state you would change your mind if you were shown wrong, but you are not changing your mind. That is called, "calling your bluff"


Stated it and meant it - I will always consider anything I'm shown and I have NO problem admitting when I'm wrong on the facts. Look back and re-read my original argument, please, and tell me how you have proved it wrong.

In fact, what has your post or SeeingEvil's post done to even address the issues I raised about national sovereignty and the rule of law, about the God-given right to free will?



Does that mean we can't discuss what happens in other countries?


Absolutely not, no discussion of any kind will ever be allowed on this discussion board. Just use emoticons.


Seriously though, what ever gave you that idea? Of course we can discuss it, 'nuff said was my way of showing that the point made in that post had been made (IMO), guess I was wrong...



Have you seen anyone in this thread state "let's bomb Iran to the Dark Ages for this"?....


I don't know, I haven't had the chance today to read the three new pages...

Anyway, if you catch this post, please reply and point out what it is that we disagree on. I'm really unsure now, because I read back and can't figure it out.

Remember, I said 'Most, if not all, of the prisoners executed by Iran were found guilty of crimes that would warrant the death penalty in many other places'

So we can play semantics about the word 'most', or we can take the number of prisoners executed by Iran in a year, subtract the number of extreme cases where seemingly innocent people got the noose thanks to a handful of nutters, and agree to disagree - the latter, please.

By the way, can you think of a suitable debate question? I'd love to prove SeeingEvil wrong.



posted on Aug, 21 2007 @ 12:42 AM
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Originally posted by neformore
You know, Muaddib, for someone who bleats on about people derailing threads, you sure do manage to whack out alot of complaints about "Bush haters" that have nothing to do with the topic at hand.


Maybe it has something to do with the fact that such people always derail threads to blame and bash at the U.S..... always....

The motto of ATS is still "deny ignorance" last i checked....perhaps some members should take that advice and start "denying ignorance" for once instead of embracing ignorance, making up claims, and exagerating just because they want to bash and blame the U.S. in every thread.....


Originally posted by neformore
There are some people on ATS who believe that the Bush Administration and America can do no wrong at all. Regardless of the topics at hand. They present as much of a polarised view as the "Bush Haters" to which you refer. Criticising one side, whilst being a card carrying member of the other is hypocritical. I'm sure you will agree.


....i kind of doubt that...noone is perfect and as such every administration in every country has made mistakes including the U.S.......but derailing every thread and making exagerations just so you can feel better every day by blaming and bashing the U.S. in every thread does not help you in the least....it just shows that there are quite a few members who are willing to make up exagerations and stretch the truth because they want to blame everything on the United States...

Again, i see that you did not even have one sentence to actually discuss the topic at hand.....



posted on Aug, 21 2007 @ 02:15 AM
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Originally posted by WyrdeOne
Check again.


Amnesty said 1770, and 'Chinese Academics' estimated 10000. Are we reading the same links?


Perhaps you should check again the sources I gave. Let's actually quote it again.


In March, a senior member of the National People’s Congress announced that China executes around 10,000 people per year.

web.amnesty.org...

What's the National People's Congress?


National People's Congress
is the highest state body in the People's Republic of China. Although the membership of the NPC is still largely determined by the Communist Party of China,

en.wikipedia.org...'s_Congress

So the 10,000 executions a year in China came from a Chinese senior officer who works in the highest state body in China. Since executions in China are a state secret, it is not far fetched to actually think this number is probably on the low end.


Originally posted by WyrdeOne
Presumably the 'sharp tongue' judge is a hardliner to beat all hardliners. However, they certainly do have a culture that values respect, self-control and deference very highly, and if the girl was mouthing-off in court and blaming others for her behavior it's not really that strange that the judge sought to make an example of her. I shouldn't even have to say this but I do - I disagree with the logic behind executing people (or punishing them at all) for moral offences, victimless crimes, and the like, but I can't tell the Iranians how to run their country any more than they can tell me how to run mine.


Not exactly good reasons for hanging a 16 year old girl.


Originally posted by WyrdeOne
And as far as 'political prisoners' I believe I've addressed this issue already. Sedition is sedition, no matter how you slice it. The people who broke the law knew the consequences and they braved them for a chance at doing some good for their countrymen and their country. With any luck, their sacrifice will not be in vain, and there will be a popular revolution before too long.


Claims made by the Iranian regime. I gave links to Iranian stating that the Iranian regime makes up claims to execute Iranians who disagree with the radical government.

There is also the case of the Iranian American who went to visit her mom, and she was arrested and accused to "instigating a soft revolution" when the facts do not back the claims of the Iranian regime.


Originally posted by WyrdeOne
She was 16 according to her birth certificate, but the judge declared her 22 based on her physique. She had been arrested multiple times for non-crimes like attending a party, dressing indecently, having sex out of wedlock. She shouted at the judge and threw off her veil in court. One article claimed there was a petition from locals saying she was a bad influence on other girls, and a font of indecency - but the petition was only signed by the arresting officers...


She was 16 years old, and having a sharp mouth imo does not constitute a real reason for executing her.


Originally posted by WyrdeOne
Wait, was someone executed for protesting or having a difference of opinion? I must have missed that link. Regardless, remember that there as in here, a difference of opinion regarding the law does not give you license to disregard the law.


The 30 Iranian that were accused of instigating a soft revolution.... The example of the American-Iranian who the Iranian regime accuses also of instigating a "soft revolution' which means she will probably also be hanged even though there is no proof to what the Iranian regime claims...



Originally posted by WyrdeOne
I'm not leaving out the fact, I just don't see how it's relevant. I think it's wrong that the state kills people with the intelligence of children. That's the law though. Reasonable men can disagree, isn't that right?


Yes, people can disagree, but if a retarded person commits murder that retarded person could at any time and for no reason murder someone else. The only way to stop him/her from murdering anyone else, if they were not charged with the death penalty is to restrain them all the time. Not exaclty a good way to live being restrained all the time.


Originally posted by WyrdeOne
The point, if you remember, was that many people in this nation disagree with the three strikes concept, and with the execution of mentally handicapped people or people of a younger age, but the nation continues (in some states) to put these people to death.


The point is that none of those cases have anything to do with what is happening in Iran. This is just a red herring on your part and the part of those members derailing the thread.


Originally posted by WyrdeOne
It's pretty much the same in Iran, different regions are more religious and/or more extreme than others. The same girl, behaving the same way, in a more laid-back part of Iran might not have raised too many eyebrows.

It is not the same in Iran.... If you would have instead stated "the same thing is happening in China" i would have agreed with you...because in China people get executed for similar reasons as in Iran...but not in the U.S.


Originally posted by WyrdeOne
If you continue to dig into the story, it appears she had a sexual relationship with a married member of the moral police. So, there's a lot about that story than meets the eye. It provides a convenient excuse for people looking to inflame popular sentiment though...


Not exactly a good reason for hanging a 16 year old. She did not kill anyone, she was just having sex, if it is true.


Originally posted by WyrdeOne
Sounds very similar to the logic being used to justify the insane execution of a (possibly) promiscuous young Iranian girl. She was likely to continue to break the law, so they killed her to stop that possibility. Is there anything to your continued argument besides your opinion over the relative wrongness of this execution? How many times do I have to agree with you on that point before you cease making it?


I am showing that you are still trying to find excuses for the iranian regime doing this. I am also been trying to show you that your continued claim to find similarities with the peole being hanged in Iran and the laws of the U.S. is nothing more than a red herring.


Originally posted by WyrdeOne
My argument, from the beginning, was that it is the right of the Iranian citizenry to make and enforce their laws. I insist on their right to do so only because I insist on OUR right to do so. Are we even in disagreement? I can't tell anymore...


True, but the Iranian people apparently can't have a difference of opinion, otherwise they get charged with false crimes and hanged.


Originally posted by WyrdeOne
In fact, what has your post or SeeingEvil's post done to even address the issues I raised about national sovereignty and the rule of law, about the God-given right to free will?


Well, at least we were trying to stay on topic instead of derailing the thread by claiming somehow what happens in Iran is similar to what happens in the U.S.



Originally posted by WyrdeOne
Seriously though, what ever gave you that idea? Of course we can discuss it, 'nuff said was my way of showing that the point made in that post had been made (IMO), guess I was wrong...


Well, the fact that you were more concerned with making a red herring by stearing this thread to discuss U.S. laws, when in the United States people are not hanged for being political prisoners, having a difference of opinion than the system. China does that, as well as some other countries.


Originally posted by WyrdeOne
Anyway, if you catch this post, please reply and point out what it is that we disagree on. I'm really unsure now, because I read back and can't figure it out.


The fact that you and other members have been trying to derail this thread from it's topic yet at no time have you as a moderator asked people to stay on topic, but in fact you participate on derailing the thread too.


Originally posted by WyrdeOne
Remember, I said 'Most, if not all, of the prisoners executed by Iran were found guilty of crimes that would warrant the death penalty in many other places'


How do you know that is true? i gave examples of Iranian citizens stating the Iranian regime makes up accusations just to hang those people who disagree with the regime.

[edit on 21-8-2007 by Muaddib]



posted on Aug, 21 2007 @ 03:42 AM
link   
WyrdeOne, to my amusement I see that you recently stated the following:
"I will always consider anything I'm shown and I have NO problem admitting when I'm wrong on the facts."

Yet you say this after the point in which you refused to admit personal error in regards to being factually proven wrong on the Amnesty figures for the estimated amount of yearly Chinese executions. That is reminiscent of someone having all the credibility and integrity of a moss covered swamp rock.

May I suggest you engage someone else in debate or else find a mirror and proceed to argue alone with yourself, I've no interest in providing amusement for spin doctors who'll insist the sky is green.

If however you'd like to discuss your favorite coffee or something equally trivial, perhaps I'll indulge you. Personally I feel that Maxwell House Columbian makes for quite a good cup
.

.....

Edit:
So what's your favorite coffee ...
... ?

[edit on 21-8-2007 by seeingevil]




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