People really need to rethink there concept of distance.

I always here "why would aliens travel hundreds of thousands of miles to come to earth to do etc.'' Saying this i think is really stupid because aliens oviously have a better way of travel then our conventional means.

Travelling insanely large distances may just be as simple as hitting a button then stepping through the door. This would mean they could come here for any sort of reason because no long term time is involved.

Ive heard that they can either use some kind of wormhole technology or travelling through dimensions somehow where distance is not a factor.

People should stop thinking they travel as slow as us and start thinking they travel like super insanely crazy fast to the point where they dont care about where in the universe they are trying to get to cause the reaching the edge is no more different then looking out the window.

Anyone know if anything to do with there propultion systems work at all or if its like thought activated kind of thing? i dont know how to speel propultion.

Of course people ponder on how such alien crafts could travel such distances.

Here are some threads on UFO propulsion theory:

www.abovetopsecret.com...
www.abovetopsecret.com...
www.abovetopsecret.com...


Now if you go down the path of black holes and such, well we do have a general idea.

The closest black hole to us is something like 1600 light years away.

Uhh thats not very close.

A light year is 5.88 trillion miles.

5.88 trillion x 1600 = *brain explodes* ... A very long distance.

No matter what.... its a very long car ride.

Distance still could be a factor as it is SpaceTime and both the Space and the Time has to be manipulated. Propulsion (and that may still be wrong with the spelling) is not the word for it, for Propelling something is not what they may be doing. But bending SpaceTime around to cut the distance down is also a factor that would take an enormus amount of energy. Teleportation would take an enormus amount of computer power if it ever could be done or a storage area, but a person must realize that the person is destroyed and a copy made of the person at the arrival place.

So, although seemingly like magic perhaps, it still will take science to come up with a way of even getting to the nearest star only 4.3 lightyears away - or about 25,000,000,000,000 ( 25 trillon miles) away. At our present rate of coming up with some designs, it still is estimated that trying to get there would still take about 50 years one way. I don't think humans are going to build anything to go there for quite a few number of years yet. Have to come up with perhaps putting a spacecraft in its own SpaceTime field that differs from the normal SpaceTime field of the Universe as it is right now, and somehow achieving a better way to even get out in SpaceTime.

??

Or perhaps we need to re-think our concept of Time.

Distance, a quantification of Space as our minds experience it in 3, 4, or n-dimensions, can be thought of as just another means of expressing our experience of linear time.

For example, let's say I live 30 miles from my granny's house. "30 miles" is a measurement of the distance (space) between my house and granny's house. But I could also say that I live 30 minutes from granny, which would imply a travel velocity of aprox. 60 MPH, were I to make the journey to see the old bat.

This expression of distance as a function of Time is extensively employed when astronomical distances (Sorry for the pun!) are discussed: we refer to "light years" and "light days" for example.

But what if our visitors did not experience Time as linear, as flowing, the way we do? From a certain Past, through the Present, towards an unknown Future?

Suppose that for Them, Time did not flow, was not linear. Suppose that for Them, Time was all of a single instant; that the concept of Time, as we know and experience it, did not exist.

Without the perception of Time, as a linear phenomenon, there would be no perception, no concept, of distance as we know it, the concept of distance being nothing but an expression of one aspect of time.

Time is the Mind's ultimate Trap!

But what if our visitors did not experience Time as linear, as flowing, the way we do? From a certain Past, through the Present, towards an unknown Future?

If there is no flow of time then nothing happens - there cannot be a before or after and no sequence of events could occur. Photons, traveling AT the speed of light, do not experience time in the same way as sub-light matter, since time dialation rises to infinity when v = c.

I do not see how matter in this universe could not experience time unless it was traveling at lightspeed, which is not possible since it would take more energy that the universe contains to accelerate even a single proton to lightspeed. Plus, traveling at lightspeed means there can be no interaction with normal matter anyway, unless you were to decelerate to sub light speeds, which would then cause the flow of time to continue. At this point I can't think of any way for matter to change states back and forth at will.

hey guys

it may seem far fetched but i once saw a episode of star trek where they found a planet who was in a time dilation field causing the planet to experience time alot faster then us. Maybe someway someone found a way to put a simmiliar field around a spacecraft causing the whole area within the field going slower then the normal rate. In this way the whole universe could be going at the normal timerate but inside the ship they would have a slower timerate causing the distance to be irrelevant to time.

Originally posted by Spartannic
hey guys

it may seem far fetched but i once saw a episode of star trek where they found a planet who was in a time dilation field causing the planet to experience time alot faster then us. Maybe someway someone found a way to put a simmiliar field around a spacecraft causing the whole area within the field going slower then the normal rate. In this way the whole universe could be going at the normal timerate but inside the ship they would have a slower timerate causing the distance to be irrelevant to time.

That was a Yoyager episode.

Actually there is no need for such a field, because acceleration (or intense gravitational fields) slows down time from the point of a distant observer. If you are traveling at near light speeds, time passes "normally" from your point of view, but hundreds, thousands, even millions of years pass by elswhere to the objects not moving. Thus a ship leaving for a distant star might take 500 years to reach from the point of view of life back on Earth, but inside the ship only a few decades might have passed. When the ship returns home - a millenia will haved passed.

Of course there is still no way of getting around the fact that no matter how fast you go inside the ship, time cannot pass faster than the speed of light will allow - ie. you can't travel to Alpha Centauri in 5 months ship time - 4.5+ years would be the best you could do even if your ship could travel at 99.99999 percent light speed and accelerate to that velocity instantly (fat chance of either of those happening, but you get the point)

I envision simply jumping into a dimension where time doesnt exist. Jumping out would mean you specify a location (ie the locations you're at) AND time, in order to "match" yourself back in our dimension.

Time travel and space travel solved in one big swoop

Originally posted by merka
I envision simply jumping into a dimension where time doesnt exist. Jumping out would mean you specify a location (ie the locations you're at) AND time, in order to "match" yourself back in our dimension.

Time travel and space travel solved in one big swoop

But if time were not to exist - in this "plane of existence" or any other, there would be no change, no unfolding sequence of events since without time there is no past/present/future.

If you were to exist or travel that plane of reality, nothing could happen since there is no sequence of events to unfold. Everything would be frozen - as soon as ANYTHING were to happen, then there would be a past(before the event) and thus a definition of time. Any movement would indicate time was flowing as well.

From what I've read, additional physical dimensions (manifolds) of space-time would still experience the phenomena of time even if they were somehow accesible to us since they are by definition, properties of Space-TIME.

[edit on 18-8-2007 by DamnDirtyApe]

To insist that without a "flow of time" "nothing would happen" is to fail to percieve that likewise, "everything" would be happening at the SAME Time!

Think of it this way:

Take a pad of paper and draw a series of images, one on each page, such that when you thumbed through the pages, the images would form an object apparently in motion.

This is one of the favored past-times of bored school-kids.

If we were to think of each page as a moment in time, then as we flip through the pages we would see the effect of each moment of time flickering into our perception of it.

And, perceiving this progression of images, we might conclude that "something was happening" to the image we were perceiving: it moves.

But!

In "reality", each image on each page is not moving. As we would perceive if we were to examine any single image on its own. By doing so, we would effectively be "stopping Time" for that particular image.

But suppose our Alien friends did not percive Time As we do.

Suppose that for Them, their perception of reality was that of the pad itself and all the images drawn on it at once, as a whole; no flipping required. Suppose their minds allowed them to, therefore, "pick and chose" which images to interact with, and in any order, or at any "flipping speed" (Oops! Another pun!) they chose.

It's a slippery concept to get one's mind around, to be sure.

Consider; if you propose that without Time, movement would be impossible, and this is demostrated by the flipping of the pad's pages, then

What happens to Time while the pad sits on the tabletop?

Alot of people here claiming that such things are impossible seem to be stuck in the old 3/4 dimensional way of thinking. May I suggest you read up on the latest theories.

Science is currently operating on their being at least several more dimensions and research done by some scientists has, theoretically, postulated that travel through "hyperspace" could be possible.

The only thing stopping an experiment happening now is that current material and power technology is somewhat inadequate.

The only machine capable of performing such an experiment is the Z-machine, yet many Physicists do not even understand the work done on the hyperspace theory and it requires a little more study..

Having said that, other experiments appear to show that information can be transmitted FTL, in fact instantaneously. Look up quantum entanglement.

So, in the interests of denying ignorance, before declaring something as impossible, do your research and see what the top minds on this little rock are currently working on.

Originally posted by Bhadhidar
To insist that without a "flow of time" "nothing would happen" is to fail to percieve that likewise, "everything" would be happening at the SAME Time!

Think of it this way:

Take a pad of paper and draw a series of images, one on each page, such that when you thumbed through the pages, the images would form an object apparently in motion.

This is one of the favored past-times of bored school-kids.

If we were to think of each page as a moment in time, then as we flip through the pages we would see the effect of each moment of time flickering into our perception of it.

And, perceiving this progression of images, we might conclude that "something was happening" to the image we were perceiving: it moves.

But!

In "reality", each image on each page is not moving. As we would perceive if we were to examine any single image on its own. By doing so, we would effectively be "stopping Time" for that particular image.

But suppose our Alien friends did not percive Time As we do.

Suppose that for Them, their perception of reality was that of the pad itself and all the images drawn on it at once, as a whole; no flipping required. Suppose their minds allowed them to, therefore, "pick and chose" which images to interact with, and in any order, or at any "flipping speed" (Oops! Another pun!) they chose.

It's a slippery concept to get one's mind around, to be sure.

Consider; if you propose that without Time, movement would be impossible, and this is demostrated by the flipping of the pad's pages, then

What happens to Time while the pad sits on the tabletop?

I'm well aware of the flipbook thought experiment - but it's only that - a thought experiment. I can make any analogy I want to explain a natural phenomena, but there is no inherent guarantee that it's accurate or descriptive of reality. The truth is no one really has a grasp on the real "truth" yet - none of us. It may not even be possible for humans to fully understand the phenomena. I realize we are all just "throwing ideas out there" since none of us are theoretical physicsts or professional cosmologists.

So lets have fun and suppose for a moment your analogy is accurate. Now if ET's are a component of the physical universe, then how can they exist outside of the flipbook - their history and evolution are components of how the book flips (passage of time) as is everything else in the Universe (besides photons). You can't go outside the box and ignore nature if you are a component of nature. A page in the book can't suddenly not be a page, and instead be a human who decides to jump ahead.

Saying that "well they use their minds" is like saying "well they activate their hope machines" I'd like to see any evidence that thoughts can do ANYTHING to matter, let alone violate the flow of time.

No if you are saying that they are not part of this Universe and not built of its matter - matter that is by very nature subject to the laws of our Universe's flipbook rules - then I can't really argue with your point. I suppose "God" would also be such an entity that can step outside the framework of the Universe at will.

But at some point everything gets to be so totally unrelated to existing reality so as to be sort of pointless. A person could invent any sort of concoction they wanted to explain if adherence to any known principles of physics are not required.

And even IF they could ignore time's effects , how would that solve the problem of distance? The Universe is expanding/moving constantly. We are not at the same physical coordinates as we were yesterday or a million years ago. Jumping ahead to a zillion frames of time (flipbook quanta "pages") would just dump you into now-empty space probably.

[edit on 18-8-2007 by DamnDirtyApe]

[edit on 18-8-2007 by DamnDirtyApe]

Originally posted by DamnDirtyApe
You can't go outside the box and ignore nature if you are a component of nature. A page in the book can't suddenly not be a page, and instead be a human who decides to jump ahead.

I've never suggested that anyone, human or alien be empowered to "Go outside the Box".

I've merely suggested the possibility that our, human, view of what is contained within the "box" may be limited by our human faculties, to something considerablely less than what is actually "IN" the box.

It is somewhat egotistical to assume that our comprehension, Human comprehension, of what is and isn't "Real" and/or "Possible" is in any way THE absolute end of the arguemant.

Originally posted by stumason
Alot of people here claiming that such things are impossible seem to be stuck in the old 3/4 dimensional way of thinking. May I suggest you read up on the latest theories.

Science is currently operating on their being at least several more dimensions and research done by some scientists has, theoretically, postulated that travel through "hyperspace" could be possible.

I beg to differ. Additional manifolds of space-time are at this stage only mathematical tools that exist to solve various physics problems. They may, or may not be, describing reality. There are ton of them out there, but they have one thing in common: the extra dimensions are generally atomic in scale.

Everyone seems to think that additional dimensions are something you can can just hop into and out of or something, and that they exist as our 3 prime dimensions do, but are "out of phase" with this reality or something.

But that's not how the models work. whether you are tallking about Kaluza–Klein, M-theory or whatever, additional physical dimensions are "compact" spaces - tightly folded loops at the quantum scale. The Universe only has 3 cosmic scale spatial dimensions, the ones we are all familiar with. Even the "Large extra dimension" theory yields tiny brane thicknesses compard to human-scale matter (The Planck length varies but not THAT much)

I'm not sure offhand if the bulk brane theory would allow for cosmic scale dimensionality, but the bulk fabic idea is still highly speculative no matter how you slice it.

If anyone out there has a link to an accepted theory of higher dimensional space-time were the manifolds are NOT compacted, I'd love to take a good look at it.


[edit on 19-8-2007 by DamnDirtyApe]

It is somewhat egotistical to assume that our comprehension, Human comprehension, of what is and isn't "Real" and/or "Possible" is in any way THE absolute end of the arguemant.

We agree on that point at least

And I also agree that other intelligences may PERCEIVE time differently - perhaps they can see "The big picture" as it were. But that does not necessarily follow that they can EFFECT or CHANGE the rules of the flipbook as it aplies to them. My argument is that the act of jumping pages could only be achieved if the beings were not made of the components of this Universe, and existed outside of the flipbook.

Wasn't trying to debate the nuances of purely hypothetical "laymans" theories of course, just giving my two cents about my initial reactions to your post. At this point I suppose its all arguing about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin

With my humble, lowly reasoning capacity I think that there is something in the way the human mind is locked into our 3 /4 D perceptions.

We are creatures of our perceived dimensions and arrogantly presume that that is all that there is. I feel a convergence of higher maths, philosophy, chaos and others likely to lead the way, rather than one "discipline" finding the answers.

I am skeptical of most of the para-science subjects but do wonder if at some future level of higher intelligence and for want of a better word "spirituality" the combined, multi dimensional consciousness of humanity may move towards solving all that there is to know

Regarding the concept of distance. I believe it to be merely a concept of our mind in our world. I think there is a variable topology, dependant on the dimensions you are "conscious" of. A bit like the 3D world to the 2D flatlanders. I have difficulty grasping what I am saying, not being educated enough to express it, but I see it like the Smale Horseshoe. Our worldliness is in the original rectangle. But this "reality" is stretched and bent in other dimensions like the Smale Horseshoe...or other sexier shapes.

So as I see it, we live happily ignorant of the fact that micro-millimetres away there could a leap to any other part of the "original rectangle", all we need is a means to "jump" dimensions...that's all

My feeble brain is still working on whether or not this violates all the usual physics of space time. But I think that right now, we are waiting for a new math, that may be so far beyond what we know, that we wouldn't know it, if walked up to us in a "T" Shirt with its name on. I note that science don't know where the other 90% of theoretical matter is...maybe that's what the new math will do...tell them where it is.

But I do agree that our concept of distance, dimensionality itself, is both rightly and arrogantly based on our caveman brain perceptions. That has served us well for a bit but something needs to give us another push or kick. Maybe as a species we are not ready yet...perhaps the universe don't want us treading on the welcome mats of other parts of the cosmos

reply to post by ParanoidKid


Heres a PDF I have written that gives an overview on how travel over vast distance can be done and how the SOL ( Speed of Light ) limit is a byproduct of separation of physical particles in a Quantum State relative to other physical particles and how we may alter local Space/Time ( Quantum State) and cause a craft to be Massless in relative relation to all other matter in the Universe. A massless craft can far exceed c and is not impacted by inertial forces.

Its called Postulate of G.U.T.S.

Paulr.Mays.Com...

reply to post by bash the bishop


Take a quick look at my postulate and it explains where the 90% of matter is, or better stated it explains that its not Matter we cannot find its the Energy thats missing and I try to explain the discrepancy between what we observe and what measurement says should be there. The missing is the Remainder of the Undefinable Energy of the Quantum Point of the Big Bang when a portion of that undefinable energy was converted into definable Matter creating the known Universe.

Paulr.Mays.Com...

Hello All .. I have just updated my Postulate on G.U.T.S. To clarify some points and added a few drawing so as to better visualize the idea. Fell free to down load the PDF and add markups to it and send it back to me and I will try to fix what wrong.

Heres the link to it again..

Paul Mays

Paulr.mays.com...