A few words of Caution

Originally posted by newyorkee
stop it. war =death./ death=immoral. acts of agression are not self defence.

Remember that when you or anyone you love is being attacked, raped or killed...I want you to stand by and watch, knowing your own beliefs are the reason for them meeting their fate....DO NOT try and do ANYTHING aggressive...just stand there, watch and say, "Please Stop", or "Why are you doing this, it's so immoral, I demand you to stop"

Theorys like yours would be great in a world that went along with it, but face it, those who want to and will inflict pain, suffering, and who love being dominant will do so without ANY care in the world....so as much as you may think its easy to stand by and be rational and NOT react in an aggresive manner tells me you must have NEVER experianced anything that required you to REACT! One day your little equation will be put to the test...and you better be ready to follow it...no matter what the cost to your family/friend/or yourself....

When did iraq attack us? is it possible that you are joking ? you really think that out of a place like iraq that was a dictatorship, would be harbering rebels. the two dont mix. Iraq never attacked us. when were we invaded?

as far as me never beeing tested...proof?

I beleive in stoping agression as it is that my fundamental virtues find their purpose in the preservation of life. If attacked defend. To attack you must have ppurpose, or else your society will find it hard to place a high value on human life. We sir, were never attacked by Iraq. We have an active policy of invading lesser countries in an attempt to sumbvert any growth and prosperity third world nations will have without the US and western powers. I am not naive, just rational. You sound insane saying that I am not like every other human being in here that feels for lost and wouldnt stand up to defend what I love , but rather flee or lay down and die. You are more guilty of pushing an agenda than insulting or belittleing my rational. So really I guess your just doing your job. If you didnt actively try to sway oppinion to push an already condemed war, you would be out of the job. We all like nice things I guess.

[edit on 18-8-2007 by newyorkee]

[edit on 18-8-2007 by newyorkee]

What is the matter with you people? It staggers the informed mind when people say such nonsense as is stated here. 9-11 was a staged attack from the inside and with the help of foreign intelligence services..black ops all the way. Iraq was simply in the plan as part of the PNAC intentions set forth by the Neocons. There IS NO ENEMY on some far away shore that hates us because we have some minor free speech rights..freedoms!!

You cannot be that naieve as to believe that Iraq was anything more than a stop on the road to US hegemony and oil resource grabbing. Look at the facts and players..there is NO doubt. We were lied into war by the criminal Bush cabal, the Clintons are just as bad, all part of the same corporate entity, and the suckers dying for these megalomaniacal monsters that run things in reality are of no concern to any of them. All part of the game.

I can't believe that people out there still claim that we were ' attacked ' by some terrorist cell with the ability to alter physics and reality to fit their plans!! Amazing, with all the evidence out there..some still wave the flag and growl about how THEY would go in there BY GOD and blow the A-rabs to hell..that is exactly what the master wants you to think..keep listening to Fox news and all the lies, keep thinking for no good reason that Iraq had something to do with 9-11..keep thinking that we are over there defending Old Glory..thats funny!! We are defending massive corruption and profits for Bechtel and Halliburton and on and on..raking in the trillions.

But instead of labeling the scene truthfully and saying that they are sacrificing young men all day long to protect profits and keep a permanent ' war on terror ' going to insure vast monies for the already rich for decades to come, they of course tell them the lies: It is all for some grand purpose..don't ask, just follow orders. The ' terrorists ' are everywhere and we must be scared and depoend on ever more intrusive laws and more soldiers so we can insure liberty, right?

It is sickening..really sickening, to think that people actually buy this crap. Pure lies and propaganda fed to the masses to keep the illusions going. If the flag wavers would read a little, they would see that this whole plan was laid out before King George ever took office. It was set up and then put into action: The entire PNAC plan: Create a new Pearl Harbor, 9-11, to have an excuse to rally the people around the flag yet again so they could invade that part of the world and install puppet governments, build vast US military bases, and establish a foothold for regional domination.

We never had ANY intention of going there and performing a military operation and then leaving; this was all part of a long range plan to take the region away from the people and make them vassal states just like we have all over the world; in the Pacific and all over the world we have ' territories ' where we rule but give little help to.Imperialism is alive and well. America has lost the high ground, with Bush we are becoming a danger to the entire rest of the world and that means we are in danger ourselves.

The insane Bush crowd would actually ignite a nuclear world war to usher in their supposed ' rapture ' and let God sort out the problems after the supposed ' righteous ones ' flee from the fall out and destruction. These crazies actually beloieve this stuff. Just listen to John Hagee sometime ; this guy believes that Isreal can do no wrong and the sooner we light up the nukes the better!! They will end up killing us all with their madness .

And so many Americans are so GROSSLY underinformed about current events, it is sad. I bet that the people who are posting here that believe that we were attacked by some foreign bunch of A-rabs with boxcutters who hated the fact that we have certain rights also believe that the Twin Towers turned into flour like dust from a gravity collapse!! They must, otherwise they would ascribe to the inside job belief and therefore would not believe the drivel about us being attacked from some terrorist cell with incredible luck and skill. So much so that the hundreds of inexplicable anomalies that swirl around this event could all be explained away by the abilities of the supermen who pulled the ' attacks ' off.

You FIRST have to understand that there are NO terrorists that hate us because we are a different society from them, that is stupid. There are people whio hate us because we invade their lands based on total lies ( see Iraq , etc. ) and have slaughtered their people so that the corporate masters can be enriched. They kind of dislike that, and so would you. We are there to support vast money being spent there are being stolen from there. Saddam is dead and we are still, and always will be there to insure that we can get Iran next, and then all the rest. unles Russia or Chine gets tired of seeing us rob and murder our way around the world and decide that they can survive a nuclear exchange better than we can; then we will regret sitting on our butts and allowing a handful of evil and corrupt men to cause all that grief.

If the USA were to mind its own business and conduct foreign affairs in an open and decent manner, we would be in a lot better world. WE are the invaders; the lies Bush gave for the invasion are DOCUMENTED. There is NO DOUBT that we were lied and bullied into Iraq, etc. to fulfill the grand plans of the PNAC boys, thats all. Once you comprehend 9-11, and who pulled it off, then you see the ' terrorists ' and ' highjackers ' and all the rest are all PUPPETS dancing to the tunes of the intelligence services at the highest levels.

Just like when DEA agents get to the top, they always find the CIA involved, and get shut down by the politicians, so is it with the ' terror ' bosses; get too close, like the FBI agents stymied by Bowman, et al.,and you will be shut down also. the poison is at the top..the danger is not hiding in some dank basement stirring up a bomb, it is in the mahogany paneled offices where well groomed men and women twist the truth and create the lies and set up the reality we see.

You must believe that all of the evidence cannot be wrong; it is the truth that we are being lied to , deceived on a massive scale for personal profit and power; sold out. The enemy is within, in the White House and the Pentagon and the Senate; Qui bono: WHO BENEFITS? Answer that and you have the guilty parties.

Originally posted by eyewitness86
If the USA were to mind its own business and conduct foreign affairs in an open and decent manner, we would be in a lot better world. WE are the invaders; the lies Bush gave for the invasion are DOCUMENTED. There is NO DOUBT that we were lied and bullied into Iraq, etc. to fulfill the grand plans of the PNAC boys, thats all.

Excellent post eyewitness. The quote above pretty much sums up why I support Ron Paul. He advocates getting our own house in order rather than spreading "freedom" via bombs to the rest of the world. In other words, do NOT do unto others as you would NOT have them do unto you.

reply to post by shadow_soldier1975


They do not get it I've tried but think its a lost cause.. They seem to think that every battle is a war and every battlefield is a discreet event. I tried to explain that being in the battlefield of Iraq is what an army does when they understand tactics. In war you want to pick the field and not let the enemy pick it. This has been the way of war since " The Art of War" was written long ago. I know that those that must fight a war are the one that most hate war. Its our brother that lay down their blood and solders my me are extreme anti war at heart. Heck My son is a Navy Cadet and soon will be in Harms way and I want no more war more than most could ever understand.

But I also know that we are facing an enemy that has a greater number than the enemies we faced in WW2 and WW1 combined. 2% of the islamic world has stated they will die to kill us.. do the math.. So we fight in a battle field over there to try to keep the enemy from making the battle field in a town near you , here, in the US.

But they will sit around and sing camp songs and rage against the machine while Men and women of Honor stand an lay down their blood so that can go about life oblivious to the threat.

Its amazing at the ignorance of the history western style life has had with this enemy over the past 1500 years but I think they may change their mind when we lose a US city and as much as I hate it I do not see the people of my country pissed off enough yet to stop it from happening. It take us a lot to get pissed .. we had to be dragged into WW1 and it wasn't until Japan hit us that we stepped up to the plate in WW2 but I still think when we are hit we will get pissed and all bets will be off..

reply to post by eyewitness86

MOD EDIT: PLEASE BE RESPECTFUL TO OTHER MEMBERS

The fall of the towers is completely inline with physics and anyone that doesn't understand that has no idea how physics works.. amazing..

If we want oil we would just buy it.. be much cheaper..

MOD EDIT: AGAIN PLEASE DISCUSS THE INFO, AND NOT THE MEMBER



[edit on 18-8-2007 by spacedoubt]

reply to post by TheComte


To see the division look up the 1947 UN Partition Plan which when Israel became a state followed to the letter allowing a two state solution

Following World War II, the British announced their intention to withdraw from the British mandate of Palestine. The United Nations General Assembly proposed the partition of Palestine into two states, an Arab state and a Jewish state, with the city of Jerusalem to be under the direct administration of the United Nations. While most Jews in Palestine accepted the proposal, most of the Arabs in Palestine rejected it. Violence between Arab and Jewish communities erupted almost immediately. Toward the end of the British mandate, the Jews planned to declare a separate state, a development the Arabs were determined to prevent. On May 14, 1948, the last British forces withdrew from Palestine, and the Jews, led by David Ben-Gurion, declared the creation of the State of Israel, in accordance with the 1947 UN Partition Plan. Arab countries refused to recognize the State of Israel, and armies from Egypt, Syria, Jordan and Iraq joined the fighting, thus beginning the second phase of the 1948 Arab-Israeli War. On the northern front, the Syrian army was blocked in Deganya, the Iraqis were unsuccessful in their efforts to cross the Jordan River and were blocked at the border, as were the Lebanese to the north. The Jordanian Legion invaded on the eastern front and captured East Jerusalem, cutting off the Western part and effectively laying siege to the city. On the Southern front, Haganah forces managed to block the invading Egyptian armies in the Ashdod area, and Irgun forces halted the Egyptians at Ramat Rachel. In early June, the UN declared a month-long ceasefire, which was used by Israel to create the Israel Defense Forces. When the fighting resumed, the IDF took the attacking initiative and had the upper hand. In March 1949, after several long months of fighting, a ceasefire was brought into effect, determining Israel's interim borders, known as the Green Line. The war for Israel's Independence, proved to be the costliest in it's history: Some 6,000 men and women perished, about 4,000 of which were combatants, from a Jewish population of 650,000. The exact number of Arab losses is unknown but are estimated at between 10,000 and 15,000 people. For the Palestinian Arabs the war was costly as well, as many of them fled to neighboring Arab countries, resulting in some 700,000 refugees (see 1948 Palestinain Exodus).

reply to post by Quantummist

So, to paraphrase your reply, the UN decided to give the Jewish people approx. half of the Palestinian land, and as payment the Palestinians were allowed to keep the other half. That is until Israel decided to seize a little bit more land, as shown by this map.
www.passia.org...


Also,

the British refused to implement any parts of the Plan deemed unacceptable by either side, and refused to co-administer the Mandate with the UN Commission. Jewish leaders declared the independent State of Israel the day prior to British withdrawal, on 14 May 1948.
en.wikipedia.org...

So, when the Palestinians rejected the plan outright, that should have been the end of it right there, except for the war criminal Ben Gurian declaring Israeli independence, who is reported as saying

"If I were an Arab leader I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country … We come from Israel, but two thousand years ago, and what is that to them? There has been anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler and Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: we have come here and stolen their country. Why should they accept that?"
www.quebecoislibre.org...

No reason for the Palestinians to be angry? No, not at all.
So, to sum up, no way is that equal territory. It's irrational and irresponsible to say that it is.

reply to post by TheComte


Well then I think they both should be kicked into the sea because They kicked out the forces of Alexander the Great after his death. But then He took if from Someone that took it from someone that took it from someone. And all you guys in every country you Stole a thousand years ago should pack up and head out and let the Original Owners have it back.

All Americans should pack up and move back to England, France, Belgium and Germany and give it back to the Native Americans. All Spanish should be kicked out of Mexico and south America and sent packing back to Spain.

Its all a moot point.. A war was waged and the lossers Lost (3 times).. It is what it is Now and Israel has every right to use whatever force is required to secure it. The other side wants to take them on.. Ok.. Its where we are today.. If thats not good enough then all out war will be the next step and this time The Islamic world could lose a lot more land and this time It will not be given back after the last shots fired..