You do realize that fish and animals are not the only source of food do you?

Good post, Doc.

Even more important than hunting, fishing and farming, the survival skill that will probably keep most humans alive through whatever troubles ail the world is one of getting along. Anti-social types get weeded fairly quickly in most survival situations. As primates we have learned to cooperate in much larger groups than our cousins. Most humans have an instinctual ability to recognize and harmonize with about 150 of their fellow humans. 150 humans can defeat almost any large species of animal on Earth which is why we became the prime predator on the planet. While we've formed larger groups like armies and such, the basic unit in any modern armed force is the platoon which incidentally isn't much larger or smaller than 100-200 people. The military was well aware of basic social scientific principles long before academia ever did.

The second point I'd make is one of bringing valuable skills to the group. Ideally any survival group at needs a nominal leader or leadership group. Women tend to be much better at organizational skills than men and I say let them organize the labor pool. Men tend to thrive in the specialized roles like hunter, soldier or farmer. Everyone in the group above the age of 8-10 should at least know how to properly and safely handle a real firearm. Same with firestarting. My sister was horrified when I taught her kids how to start a fire using their glasses as magnifiers. The worst thing that even large forces without heavy weapons are loathe to attack is a smaller but better organized unit.

Originally posted by -0mega-
You do realize that fish and animals are not the only source of food do you?

of course this is true, but can you honestly say that you know a lot of "fat" vegans/vegitarians? in a survival setting this works against you.

also, you may choose to grow your own food and not need to live off of animals, but if you happen to find yourself in an area that doesnt have many wild crops growing what are you going to eat while your garden matures to harvest time?

in a survival situation you have to choose between your ideals and life. if you can find enough forage food to survive then hey, thats fabulous as things that are growing and are edible are a better choice for the simple fact that you dont have to stalk them and they wont run away. forage food is totally the best answer when its available.

what if it isnt? wouldnt it be a good idea to develop the skills needed for hunting and fishing to suppliment your diet when forage food is harder to find or until your garden somes to maturity?

ever tried growing a garden in the upper midwest in january? not gonna happen. if youre out in the middle of no where you may not have adequate storage ability to preserve all of your fruits and veggies through the long cold winter.

i guess what im saying is never rely on a sole source of food, you'd only be gambling with your lfie or the lives of your family

Originally posted by seawolf197

Canning. . . .

Remember if you start now, you can easily store through 2012! I hope I'm not glad I did it someday, cause if that's the case, we are all probably screwed anyway.

See, now that's what I consider a real survival skill. And one you're practicing now, while you have the spare time. That skill is far more valuable than half the ones people think of when you say "survive!"

Unless you get literally lost in the woods, matches are lighters are practically free in the USA, and would be for a year or two even after civilization collapsed completely. Not that firestarting skill is a waste, by any means; but creating your own foodstore that you can eat or barter would give you tremendous power beyond building a fire in most suburban civilian scenarios.

Anyway, you make a great point with the canning business.

dr_strangecraft

I am going to be making my first jerky this year (beef). Have you got any tips for starting out? I watched someone roll out the meat and do it the traditional way over a smoky fire. It was a very short demonstration so is there anything i need to know?

Thanks in advance.

priloco

I think this thread is mostly based on practical skills, give me proof under lab conditions of such claims and i'll gladly follow it. Until then i think it's best to leave thi sto survival conditiosn most people can follow.

Honestly if such claims are true i would follow them. I remember maybe two years back in england, someone following the path of no eating or drinking, they died after three days on the moors. It was a cult who said you didn't need food or water.

I think i'll stick to what i can actually do right now this moment, cheers.

EDIT

I forget to mention pickling! Pickeling is a vital skill which everyone should consider. It isn't only onions which can be picked, everything from chillis to eggs can be pickled. Also i should mention dried spices, properly dried spices can last a very long time. I myself have made my own chilli powder for years.

The weird thing is that it looks very different to brought chilli powder and i have since discovered that they add colouring to even the "organic" chili powders. Whilst the poswder you buy from the shop may look nice and red, the stuff i make looks rather brown and drab and yet it kicks a punch you woulnd't want to test.

If i use maybe 1 teaspoon of supermarket powder in a dish i would use half of that in a dish if i use my home made stuff. This also depends on the chilli you choose to dry and powder. If you are looking simply for heat, you can drastically reduce the amount needed by using stonger chilis.

Currently i grow a small quantity of chillis to dry and a great deal of mild chillis to cook and eat. Sadly the weather this year has caused some fungus to grow in my crop, but i should still get a good deal.

[edit on 18-8-2007 by ImaginaryReality1984]

I think you should start a new thread for your ideas, this thread i think is related to things most people could resort to and ideas that are proven over and over again to be true.

I don't want to overstep my bounds here but this is a thread that seems to be related to survival techniques you can try immediately.

Stick to things we can do now, fire lighting, canning, hunting etc etc.

After reading this I’m as good as dead. I had military training. But in actuality My skills are very few although that said. The point being I yet to be in a position where I’d had to rely on any survival skill yet I’m still married, lol. I think I’m prepared as I’ll ever be but I’m always looking for more knowledge in survival skills. But the idea is that when push comes to shove your going to fight regardless, am I right.

This is where groups come in where everyone knows other things you don’t. Thing in which we’ll have to depend on. Going it alone it great but there just so much you can do. I may know how to fish but whether I have the patience to do is another story.

Originally posted by pweagle
I may know how to fish but whether I have the patience to do is another story.

For me survival fishing would involve no patience at all. Baited lines, static floats, trap fishing, all of these require no patience at all. You set them up and walk away. This also goes for traps to catch squirrels, deer, and even bears. The beauty of traps are that they are sort of fire and forget, check them regularly and reset when needed.

I think a good survival view would be doing the least work for the most outcome, and so traps are great for this, forage when you can of course. Fighting other people iw oudl try to minimise simply becuase you coudl easily come off worse.

Great posts everybody learning low tech survival
skills is absolutely essential. big thing to remember
is if the world goes to crap most of us are going to be
in urban or suburban areas heading out to the great wild
to escape the badness selective picking on your way out
will greatly enhance your chances.
everyone will be raiding supermarkets for food that will spoil
in a day, go to agway get plants and seeds. as for year old seeds
why? use the seeds from the plants you grew last time. these will
be best adapted to your soil conditions. home depots and Loews
are big no no's
avoid these , green houses,plumbing supply shops
repair garages. don't go to banks bambi does not take cash

IF YOU THINK YOU WILL NEED A GUN TO SURVIVE THEN YOU
SHOULD HAVE ONE NOW, PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE.

think about what you will need for the long term.
what do the business's around you make?
where does the local ambulance company keep it's supply stock.
does REI or EMS have a distribution point nearby?
don't go to supermarkets go to their distribution centers.
DO YOUR THINKING NOW.
where will you go? how many other people will try heading there?
If you absolutely stink at some skill what can you bring to help?
the absolute best thing you can bring with you is your brain.
don't leave home without it.
don't know how to make a fire with a bow. (I think Nero invented that.)
no offense to the bow fire people but that uses to much physical energy
got matches lighters magnifying glasses magnesium block. there
are sixty gazillion things an urbanite can make a fire with.
thats all I have off the top of my head.

Originally posted by Ancrom
. . . big thing to remember
is if the world goes to crap most of us are going to be
in urban or suburban areas heading out to the great wild
to escape the badness

Why will "most of us" be "heading out into the wild?"

There is an incredible amount of survival equipment, ready-made in suburbia. How many shovels, hoes, and roto-tillers are there, lying around in the woods. All that awaits you in the woods are lyme-disease-ridden ticks, prarie dogs with bubonic plague, and rats bearing hantavirus. Oh yeah, and rivers running with Girardia. Oh, and hungry survivalists, with no food but plenty of ammo.

But the woods have no sleeping bags, not shovels or picks or coils of ropes---the stuff you find in every backyard shed in the developed world.

And you know that you cannot burn green wood, right. You won't be very happy if you go around cutting down live trees and trying to burn them. They will smoke and pop, but not give much warmth.

How many picket fences are there in your neighborhood? Most of them unpainted, right? Aged firewood, there for the taking! Sure the groceries will be raided, but there won't be much pressure yet at the clothing stores, and clothing is one thing that is cheap in the suburbs but a rare treasure if you have to make your own underwear. Good luck with that.

And food. Most of the accessible wilderness will be hunted and fished out in a couple of weeks, by all the rambo types. But deserted freeway right-of-ways will host deer and wild cattle. And rooftops will collect rainwater; many of them even have drainspouts built in for you.

Most importantly, the suburbs have people. Most of them law-biding. Nurses, doctors, dentists, pipefitters, scientists, gardeners, and musicians. All kinds of people, and most of them looking to share their skills with you. Oh yeah, almost forgot: hot chicks. No hot chicks in the woods. Biker chicks maybe.

In short, the wilderness will turn a tense situation into a life-threatening one. Why, why, why would you leave all your resources and your social safety network, in the middle of a catastrophe, to go live in the woods.

As the philosopher said, life in the jungle is nasty, cruel, brutish, and short.

everyone will be raiding supermarkets for food that will spoil
in a day, go to agway get plants and seeds.

I won't be raiding any supermarkets for the deli counter. But one aisle of my local grocery has probably what, 5000 to 10,000 cans of soup, meat, and veggies. Come to think of it, those of us who are armed could probably get jobs guarding all that loot from the mobs of looters!

as for year old seeds
why? use the seeds from the plants you grew last time. these will
be best adapted to your soil conditions.

If you read my posts, you'd see that I want to see how many years seeds will last, because they won't be available anymore once you outlive civilization by even a single year . . .

Do you know much about gardening? I doubt it, or you'd know that most seeds sold in stores are hybrids, which don't produce viable seeds after a single generation. That's why gardeners have to buy seeds every year. Old fashioned strains that will produce are known as "heirloom varieties" and have become extremely popular recently. Wonder why that is.


.

Originally posted by Ancrom IF YOU THINK YOU WILL NEED A GUN TO SURVIVE THEN YOU
SHOULD HAVE ONE NOW, PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE.

I am just quessing here but what good would a gun do when society falls apart I am guessing the people that make ammo wont be showing in for work and all of the upkeep a gun takes I am no gun expert but I am pretty sure you have to keep them clean and well oiled and all that. Lets just say you have a very large supply of ammo how long does ammo last out in the wild and then you have to wast energy guarding this large stockpile and keeping it from rusting. In my opinion that is alote of energy wasted and not a very long term solution if you know what I mean. If you really are thinking about long-term survival though I just dont see how a gun will help you. just another reason to give qigong a try ha ha or a composite bow might be a good investment.

Originally posted by dr_strangecraft

Originally posted by Ancrom
. . . big thing to remember
is if the world goes to crap most of us are going to be
in urban or suburban areas heading out to the great wild
to escape the badness

Why will "most of us" be "heading out into the wild?"

There is an incredible amount of survival equipment, ready-made in suburbia. How many shovels, hoes, and roto-tillers are there, lying around in the woods. All that awaits you in the woods are lyme-disease-ridden ticks, prarie dogs with bubonic plague, and rats bearing hantavirus. Oh yeah, and rivers running with Girardia. Oh, and hungry survivalists, with no food but plenty of ammo.

But the woods have no sleeping bags, not shovels or picks or coils of ropes---the stuff you find in every backyard shed in the developed world.

And you know that you cannot burn green wood, right. You won't be very happy if you go around cutting down live trees and trying to burn them. They will smoke and pop, but not give much warmth.

How many picket fences are there in your neighborhood? Most of them unpainted, right? Aged firewood, there for the taking! Sure the groceries will be raided, but there won't be much pressure yet at the clothing stores, and clothing is one thing that is cheap in the suburbs but a rare treasure if you have to make your own underwear. Good luck with that.

And food. Most of the accessible wilderness will be hunted and fished out in a couple of weeks, by all the rambo types. But deserted freeway right-of-ways will host deer and wild cattle. And rooftops will collect rainwater; many of them even have drainspouts built in for you.

Most importantly, the suburbs have people. Most of them law-biding. Nurses, doctors, dentists, pipefitters, scientists, gardeners, and musicians. All kinds of people, and most of them looking to share their skills with you. Oh yeah, almost forgot: hot chicks. No hot chicks in the woods. Biker chicks maybe.

In short, the wilderness will turn a tense situation into a life-threatening one. Why, why, why would you leave all your resources and your social safety network, in the middle of a catastrophe, to go live in the woods.

As the philosopher said, life in the jungle is nasty, cruel, brutish, and short.

everyone will be raiding supermarkets for food that will spoil
in a day, go to agway get plants and seeds.

I won't be raiding any supermarkets for the deli counter. But one aisle of my local grocery has probably what, 5000 to 10,000 cans of soup, meat, and veggies. Come to think of it, those of us who are armed could probably get jobs guarding all that loot from the mobs of looters!

as for year old seeds
why? use the seeds from the plants you grew last time. these will
be best adapted to your soil conditions.

If you read my posts, you'd see that I want to see how many years seeds will last, because they won't be available anymore once you outlive civilization by even a single year . . .

Do you know much about gardening? I doubt it, or you'd know that most seeds sold in stores are hybrids, which don't produce viable seeds after a single generation. That's why gardeners have to buy seeds every year. Old fashioned strains that will produce are known as "heirloom varieties" and have become extremely popular recently. Wonder why that is.


.

Doc,
its not often i feel the need to reply to a survival thread, but you Sir, well i tip my hat to you.

Your entire series of posts in this thread are articulate, well thought out, and show a fantastic mentality for suburban survival.

Myself, I am a wilderness type any how, more at home in the hills and mountains, but, to any one who has not the skills or ability to deal with daily mountain life, your thread is a life saver.

Thank you for a great read and some superb pointers for people who will have no choice but to remain in their cities / localities.

Canning, heirloom seeds, preserving foods stuff, this thread has it all. Oh and the line about Biker chicks in the woods.... that made me chortle a tad.

lot of very good points in this thread, kudos to all.

yeah i mentioned firearms in my previous post but forgot to mention the ammount of practice it takes to get good enough to really consider it a viable survival tool.

get GOOD with it. my dads the type of guy that every year for deer season (we hunt for food not for trophy's. a 10 dollar box of ammo supplimented our family food supply through the winter when he was not working (seasonal worker)) buys a single box of ammo. 20 rnds, burns off half of them checking the sights on the rifle and typically still has rnds left over after he's filled his tags.

but i feel not reminding everyone of the practice was an oversight cuz for me shooting is second nature whereas it may not be for others. so for the inexperienced, practice a LOT while the world is at relative peace.

bullets tend to have a pretty decent shelf life and brass doesnt rust or corrode much in a short period of time. ive used boxes of ammo that were 10 yrs old and had no problems. low humidity places are best but if yer "in the bush" so to speak then a light spray of the same oil you use for the weapon is not a bad idea.

a word on bow hunting. i like rifles for hunting as they are a quick kill which is good not only as hte animal suffers as little as possible, a clean shot means youre not chasing it an extra mile from your camp. if you DO choose to use a bow, practice practice practice. if you feel the end is near and you still cant hit a paper plate at 25m then put the bow away and get a rifle. or stock up on canned goods and ensure (i love that stuff) and try to last til yer garden is ready for harvest.

out in the bush or stay urban. depends on the city i live in when it hits the fan i suppose. if i still lived in omaha NE id head for the woods honestly. have to avoid meth labs but hey, camp up stream from them and be fine. if i lived in the small town of 450 people i grew up in in south dakota, id stay right at home. disaster hits a town like that and the whole town bands together. they look out for their own there. and if you live in town youre one of their own even if youre new. (also i doubt the NWO would waste time putting a garrison there to control the population)

also, if you really feel its coming to the wire, there is safety in numbers. do your friends have skills you dont? do you have skills they dont? why not stick together? if you can garden and can but cant hunt yet i can hunt but didnt get my dads green thumb, why not some mutual aid? sure theres more mouths to feed in a group but there are also more contributing to the effort.

just my thoughts, hope they were useful to someone.

Some hybrid food crops seeds will germinate but will no produce a crop and others won't germinate. Don't ask me to explain, I can't remember. I'm talking garden seed here, OK?

An easy way to dry fruit and veggies is to tie a white bed sheet 3 or 4 feet above ground between 4 post out in full sun. You will want to get all the sun on you produce that you can. If not dried in one day cover the produce with another sheet and restart in the AM.

If you want to know if the seed you kept back will germinate just take some and plant inside, keep it watered( don't let the soil dry out) and take notes.

BIG TIP COMING!!!

Use your county agricultural office ( Ag Agent ) . There should be a lot of fact sheets on just about anything, gardening and storage of food being some of the Intel you can get there.

Roper

Going back to Doc’s original point, sure there is a difference between ‘educating’ (ie books, videos etc,) someone and ‘training’ them.
I am reminded of the story about a Dad asking his daughter what she did a school today, she replied ‘We had sex education today daddy, it was very interesting!’ imagine if she had said training instead of education!

In a survival situation it is always a good idea to have a 'PLAN'

Protection (from the elements and/or other thieving vermin,)
Location (you don’t camp out in a hazardous location)
Acquisition (what you have taken with you and what you can pick up along the way,)
Navigation (know where you are and if you need to travel to family or friends, know how to get there.)

Get out in the back yard and built a shelter, go for a walk in the local district and ‘spot’ good locations. Check out your nearest ‘hardware store’ see what they have that isn’t electrical or battery driven and get to know the local flora and fauna in you district. Have a ‘plan’ for communicating with friends and family other than telephone, text or computer. There is no substitute for experience.
Nice one Doc! worth a flag or two!

Originally posted by dr_strangecraft
Why will "most of us" be "heading out into the wild?"

There is an incredible amount of survival equipment, ready-made in suburbia. How many shovels, hoes, and roto-tillers are there, lying around in the woods. All that awaits you in the woods are lyme-disease-ridden ticks, prarie dogs with bubonic plague, and rats bearing hantavirus. Oh yeah, and rivers running with Girardia. Oh, and hungry survivalists, with no food but plenty of ammo.

While I don't think heading out to the wild is a good idea unless it is to get somewhere, I'd have to say that staying in the suburbs would be just as foolish as trying to return back to nature. That equipment you mention has owners, and any that is abandoned will be fair game for all those others left behind as well. Really, I see no difference between fighting some idiot over a backhoe, or a deer shot in the forest.

And to assume that the suburbs are filled with people who have practical knowledge is BS. The suburbs are filled with the very people you mention in your original post, you know, the ones with the 20 yr old boy scout knowledge and others like you who plan on raiding their neighbor's fences, and looting the local grocery, and clothing stores. I mean, you got to have undies if TSHTF, right.

The suburbs are mostly populated by people who can't live outside the comforts of modern society. To assume that they will not be a nasty bunch after their grocery stores close, and the pumps go dry is funny really, and honestly, the thought of them scare me more than the "Rambo" types in the forest, hell it's the ones in suburbia that are stockpiling ammo and food from Cost Co.

Originally posted by dr_strangecraft
Do you know much about gardening? I doubt it, or you'd know that most seeds sold in stores are hybrids, which don't produce viable seeds after a single generation. That's why gardeners have to buy seeds every year. Old fashioned strains that will produce are known as "heirloom varieties" and have become extremely popular recently. Wonder why that is.

I know quite a bit actually and what you wrote above is completely false, unless of course the strain was specifically bred for non-viability, or if the eventual fruit is to be "seedless". Hybrids are found everywhere in the plant kingdom, and after one season of you growing a few "heirloom" varieties on your land, those seeds in the different varieties of tomatoes will be hybridized due to inevitable cross pollination. Hybridization does not equal sterilization, it just means that your beloved Verna Orange and pink Brandywine seeds might produce variegated tomatoes that taste nothing like either parent.


The reason why most gardeners have to buy seed every year is because of that very fact. Most are hobbyist who have no knowledge on how to pollinate and isolate plants to ensure seeds true to the original varities purchased. Besides that, most can't process and store seeds so as to get their maximum shelf life, which, can be years when kept properly.

I think it's cool that you have put a little extra thought into survival, but just because you tried to jerk meat, and sprouted a few seeds, that doesn't really seperate you that much from those you mention in your OP.

[edit on 19-8-2007 by phoenixhasrisin]