Yes you've found one...

I've known this for along time, and I'm dead set against abortion for my life (Unless medical reasons, complacations ect). It is a conpiracy, its a Ultra Lib one. Thats why the President has the partial birth abortions ended. Imagine, all those Americans, we could have ended disease, famine, ect--[ Taxman ]

umm, actually all Bush did was define partial-birth abortions, which before doctors were scared at certain stages because the law was so vauge. Now as long as the head is still in, its a fetus. He didnt set what trimester/term it could not be performed at.

Yes, but Knightmare, what do you think of it?

In any abortion debate , I think that what gets lost is the different possible circumstances for each abortion.

Personally , I am pro choice. But what makes me REALLY angry is the teens/women etc that have unprotected sex and then expect to use abortion as a form of contraception, or to mop up their mess , when they could have taken steps to prevent the situation from occurring in the first place.

In possible situations of rape, where no contraception methods were in place, I would not hesitate to have an abortion. It would certainly not be my choice to be raped, nor would it be my choice to be forced to have a child I never intended to have in the first place. WHy should I be forced into that situation?

In medical/life threatening situations, eg ectopic pregnancy which would only harm the mother through no fault of her own, then hell yes, abortion would be the way to go.

Having said that, again there is a difference between taking the steps to prevent pregnancy and having those steps fail anyway. In that situation , there was a clear choice made initially that a child was NOT the intended outcome of having sex.

Being Australian, I'm not fully familiar with the specifics of Roe vs Wade........ but as a woman, I have to say it is my choice if I do decide to have an abortion.

Remember , women have always had abortions. If faced with that situation then I would rather be able to have access to a clean process with minimal endangerment to myself than face the very REAL situation of going to a backyard person, no sterilisation no anesthetic..... or having the procedure done at a clinic with proper facilities.

I think it's far too easy to blanket this debate with ab " it's either this way or that way" scenario, when each situation is unique and should be viewed as a separate circumstance.

I agree with you MBS (HAHAHAHA "but WHY is the the rum gone??? That movie was great!) that in the case of rape and probable death to the mother is should still be an option.

But what about the woman, let's say 21, who isn't married, is in the upper middle class, and comes home and tells her parents she's pregnant. Then good ole daddy drags her to an abortion clinic? Or the people who give her so much # for being pregnant out of wedlock that she goes and kills this baby because of people telling her she's bad for getting pregnant?

Sadly, these situations come up all to frequently. I don't think it should be used as a means of birth control, but most of the cases I've heard and read about are by people who's parents, husbands, loved ones, tell them to kill the kid because they don't want it, they don't think what the woman did was right, etc. How is that a woman's choice?

Originally posted by junglejake


But what about the woman, let's say 21, who isn't married, is in the upper middle class, and comes home and tells her parents she's pregnant. Then good ole daddy drags her to an abortion clinic? Or the people who give her so much # for being pregnant out of wedlock that she goes and kills this baby because of people telling her she's bad for getting pregnant?

yes I've known similar situations too. And in that case it ISNT a choice. How can being dragged to a clinic and told to have an abortion, or being pressured into that situation be a choice? It isnt HER choice to have an abortion in that circumstances.... the decision in those cases is made by people outside of the situation. And to be honest who the hell are those people to make that decision for her anyway? But if SHE makes that choice , and if she was practicing birth control and it FAILED, hasnt the decision been made by her already to not have that child?

But again, there is the flip side of things. If someone is so pressured into having an abortion, is it better for them to go to a backyard abortion clinic...... or even resort to the desparate measure of using a coat hanger ( which one girl at my high school did and almost died) or having access to a facility where the procedure is done with proper medical care?

Abortions have been practiced always....... that particular practice has always been around in one form or another.

As I said before.... what is preferable? We cannot STOP people having abortions. What can be controlled is the circumstances in which it is carried out. And to me, while it may or may not be a " good" solution/practice/whatever you want to call it, I would rather have the access to proper facilities and medical care in regards to that procedure than be forced in whatever circumstances to go a possibly harmful road.

Once again, every situation is different and needs to be looked at as an individual situation.

The only thing is, a lot of those people who pressure their children/wives/girlfriends to have abortions are law abiding citizens who are afraid of what will happen to their image if their woman (pardon the possesional phrase, I just didn't know how else to phrase how those people thought of this individual) gives birth before they're married or ready. These people wouldn't think to do such a thing if it was illegal, because it would be a lot more embarassing for them if their child/wife/girlfriend went to jail.

As for failed contraception, I dunno. With success rates of 99%, are you sure someone or something isn't telling you to have a child when it fails? (lol, look at my avatar and sig, and you'll know which of those two I believe)

[Edited on 1-17-2004 by junglejake]

Originally posted by junglejake
The only thing is, a lot of those people who pressure their children/wives/girlfriends to have abortions are law abiding citizens who are afraid of what will happen to their image if their woman (pardon the possesional phrase, I just didn't know how else to phrase how those people thought of this individual) gives birth before they're married or ready. These people wouldn't think to do such a thing if it was illegal, because it would be a lot more embarassing for them if their child/wife/girlfriend went to jail.


[Edited on 1-17-2004 by junglejake]

yes they would.

and they have. If people are desperate enough , even if illegal, and they have the cash to do things they will do it. My grandmother was a pharmacist in Australia in the 40's-60's in Australia. She remembers women either home aborting through coat hangers or going to dodgy backyard abortionists and it was 100% illegal then.
Huge scandals erupted when the daughter of one of the more prominent townspeople was found dead on the rubbish tip after such a procedure arranged by her father. He subsequently was jailed..... and that kind of thing went on ALL the time when abortion was still illegal. It isnt legal here still but more available.

I fully respect your beliefs on this matter junglejim, but I personally think that this will always happen, and has always happened, and since that is the case have the facilities to prevent such things. The threat of jail or punishment will only drive it back underground. By acknowledging things at least facilities can be standardised and kept safe for women to go through this.

Originally posted by mulberryblueshimmer
yes they would.

and they have. If people are desperate enough , even if illegal, and they have the cash to do things they will do it. My grandmother was a pharmacist in Australia in the 40's-60's in Australia. She remembers women either home aborting through coat hangers or going to dodgy backyard abortionists and it was 100% illegal then.
Huge scandals erupted when the daughter of one of the more prominent townspeople was found dead on the rubbish tip after such a procedure arranged by her father. He subsequently was jailed..... and that kind of thing went on ALL the time when abortion was still illegal. It isnt legal here still but more available.

I fully respect your beliefs on this matter junglejim, but I personally think that this will always happen, and has always happened, and since that is the case have the facilities to prevent such things. The threat of jail or punishment will only drive it back underground. By acknowledging things at least facilities can be standardised and kept safe for women to go through this.

Lol, well, first I wanna say I'm JungleJake, not JungleJim

But that's not importaint, and you're cool, you liked the Pirates of the Carribean

I do have to agree with you about it always happening. I don't doubt it will continue to happen if it's outlawed. I just don't think we will be losing 1/2 million people a day. I believe it'll be much much less then that.

The figues I posted about the abortion deaths in '79 were those women who died in back allies who had all signs saying they were pregnant. The thing is the figure is very liberal, because it could include violent rape. Unfortunatelly, that figue doesn't include suicides resulting from their actions.

Personally, if I could have a baby, and got pregnant, I would feel extreamly guilty for the rest of my live if I sucked it into a vaccume cleaner which had blades in the bag to chop it up for easy disposal.

As for those women who have babies dead as a result of the abortion pill, I can only weep and pray for them...They have to see the results. Imagine goint to the bathroom and looking at the toilate which won't flush and seeing a human with toes, fingers, and a face. That would devistate me.

Originally posted by junglejake
The figues I posted about the abortion deaths in '79 were those women who died in back allies who had all signs saying they were pregnant. The thing is the figure is very liberal, because it could include violent rape. Unfortunatelly, that figue doesn't include suicides resulting from their actions.

Personally, if I could have a baby, and got pregnant, I would feel extreamly guilty for the rest of my live if I sucked it into a vaccume cleaner which had blades in the bag to chop it up for easy disposal.

As for those women who have babies dead as a result of the abortion pill, I can only weep and pray for them...They have to see the results. Imagine goint to the bathroom and looking at the toilate which won't flush and seeing a human with toes, fingers, and a face. That would devistate me.

LOL Sorry about the name junglejake, I'll check more thoroughly next time ..... not going to edit that so I can be reminded of my embarassment !

By some of your above statements , and your nick..... I'm tipping you're a guy? Nothing wrong with that and I respect your opinions.

But for me and my opinions, like I said it comes down to choice. And I would rather be given the choice than have to resort to other methods.

Back to my original point though.... it really does depend on the individual circumstances of each situation. I dont think this is as black and white as it seems to be made out to be.

I agree it's not nearly as black and white as it appears to be.

However, my mom, a hippie and feminist, is one of my biggest role models. I'm actually kind of dreading letting her know about my change of mind, because I know there will be an arguement...But then, I thrive on arguement.

She, like me, spends all her free time watching history, discovery, and the others (you know, spinoffs), and is still an extream feminsit. My grandfather wrote the sexual harrasment laws for Illinois. I, despite being a guy, am a feminist through and through.

Woman power!

My problem is with the deception of women. Did you know 90% of women shown a sonogram of their baby while about to have an abortion performed call it off? The conspiracy lies in the fact that these doctors refer to people's babies as masses of tissue, while they flick us off (see the simpsons), have heart beats, and possibly cognitave thought.

For those of you who are reflecting on your youth, and don't remember any thought, I want to remind you of a few facts. First off, the cerebrum is where memories (short term, but they need to be short term before they enter long term) are entered, and babies have undeveloped cerebrums.

Have you ever been so drunk you don't remember what happened the night before? Do you know someone who has experienced this? Do you believe they didn't have cognitive thought durring this period? They didn't deserve human rights? Did you kill them at that point in time just because they suddenly became non-human and you decided to end the friendship through death?

As much as some of you would like to deny it, that's what we're doing. We don't remember our infantile states, mainly due to a premature cerebrum, so we can't experience what an infant is going through.

Perhapse the womb is the best experience of our lives, but we just don't know it! Perhapes being born is. Maybe being fed Gerber food is, we'll never know, our brain wasn't developed enough to rememer.

I think its a neccesary evil. I know that there are far too many abortions than neccesary. Personally, I have only met the women who use abortion recklessly, as birth control...I know 3 in particular who had an abortion, only to be pregnant again within 4 months, 2 of them decided to keep that one, and they are unfit mothers on welfare. I know these are thought to be extreme examples, but these do happen far too often. However, I wonder how the conservatives so against abortions would react to the dramatic increase in welfare if abortion were suddenly illegal.
But I don't see the conspiracy, I see a desperate attempt to override the conservatives who couldn't see the neccesity.

mamaship, you, too, believe in killing to save on welfare?

Why don't we just napalm Chicago's south side to save on welfare, or would that be wrong?

Originally posted by junglejake
mamaship, you, too, believe in killing to save on welfare?

Why don't we just napalm Chicago's south side to save on welfare, or would that be wrong?

NOW we're gettin' somewhere....., Done.
--Kris

Oh dear, that's pretty scarey...

Who here would be against a plan to require people to get permits to be parents. Not sure how to enforce this, but I think we definitely have WAY too many irresponsible people having offspring. Just a though.

-P

Originally posted by postings
Who here would be against a plan to require people to get permits to be parents. Not sure how to enforce this, but I think we definitely have WAY too many irresponsible people having offspring. Just a though.

-P

I would be. As Cat Stevens put it "Will you tell us when to live, will you tell us when to die?"

China already does something similar to this, and it causes people to kill their female babies because the males create more money. BEing only allowed one child, they just kill off their women. Would we want something like that to start taking place in America? If you don't get the child you want, doesn't have blue eyes, is the wrong gender, etc. you just take it to the river and set it afloat?

Well, I'm happy to say that we're one step closer! With the senate passing a law recognising an unborn child as a living being in murder trials! Partial birth abortions are illegal. We're on our way to protecting the most innocent and defenseless of all of us! Way to go America!