Satan is not Lucifer.

Originally posted by jakyll

The first problem is that Lucifer is a Latin name. So how did it find its way into a Hebrew manuscript.

Well, gosh..........are we reading Hebrew or are we reading a translation. I bet if you picked up a complete Bible (old and new testament) written in Hebrew you would not find the name Jesus. Imagine that.

In the original Hebrew text, the fourteenth chapter of Isaiah is not about a fallen angel, but about a fallen Babylonian king, who during his lifetime had persecuted the children of Israel.

It is about a Babylonian king.............WHICH KING?

It contains no mention of Satan, either by name or reference.

Who is this man that said in his heart that he would ascend into heaven?

son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! 13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. 15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. 16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms

So "Lucifer" is nothing more than an ancient Latin name for the morning star, the bringer of light.

Exactly..........and we know.............

And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

CONCLUSION..........Lucifer is Satan.

Originally posted by Sun Matrix

Originally posted by jakyll

The first problem is that Lucifer is a Latin name. So how did it find its way into a Hebrew manuscript.

Well, gosh..........are we reading Hebrew or are we reading a translation. I bet if you picked up a complete Bible (old and new testament) written in Hebrew you would not find the name Jesus. Imagine that.

In the original Hebrew text, the fourteenth chapter of Isaiah is not about a fallen angel, but about a fallen Babylonian king, who during his lifetime had persecuted the children of Israel.

It is about a Babylonian king.............WHICH KING?

It contains no mention of Satan, either by name or reference.

Who is this man that said in his heart that he would ascend into heaven?

son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! 13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. 15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. 16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms

So "Lucifer" is nothing more than an ancient Latin name for the morning star, the bringer of light.

Exactly..........and we know.............

And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

CONCLUSION..........Lucifer is Satan.

The Roman Testament was written in Greek and you would find the name, the Greek variation of Jesus contained within it.

If it was a Past King, and I'm beginning to really think its not. It would of been Nabonidus, the Last King of Babylon before its conquest by Persia.
I'm leaning towards the idea that the Prophecy may yet be fulfilled. 1899 Babylon is excavated. 1985 Restoration of Babylon begins. 2003 The US military occupies Babylon and begins construction a large military base there. 2006 Iraq and the UN agree to build hotels and even an Amusement Park there. So this Last King of Babylon may yet live.

Who is the Man who might try to ascend into Heaven? Well numerous kings and rulers in history thought they were above G-d, like the Pharoahs and the Caesars. They thought they were god-kings.

But if the Prophecy is indeed unfulfilled, it will be someone else. Lots of parallels with Chapter 8 of Daniel, unless Daniel 8 is really Antiochus or a Roman Emperor like Hadrian. The point being here is that you hear people think the King of Babylon in Isaiah is a fallen angel, and in Ezekiel 28 they think the King of Tyre is a fallen angel, but you never hear anyone say the Little Horn of Daniel is a fallen angel. The little horn does have lots of parallels.

So did Antiochus and Hadrian though, but they weren't the same person and they were human.





[edit on 20/8/07 by MikeboydUS]

Originally posted by jakyll

"""The first problem is that Lucifer is a Latin name. So how did it find its way into a Hebrew manuscript."""


"""Well, gosh..........are we reading Hebrew or are we reading a translation. I bet if you picked up a complete Bible (old and new testament) written in Hebrew you would not find the name Jesus. Imagine that."""


Uh,well obviously we are reading a translation!!
What i ment was,that at the time of the writing of the hebrew scriptures there was no roman or latin influence on the texts.more importantly,Judaism has no devil, there is no embodiment of evil to tempt them!! so where did lucifer come from??
As i said earlier,for those who believe,satan is a job title.there are satans in heaven right now! in the courts of god passing judgement!

I should also point out that many satanic cults,like that led by the late Anton LeVay know the difference.lucifer,satan,the devil,beelzebub etc.these are all seperate beings.so if they can understand the difference,why can't any christian??

*Isn't sure where-else this thread is going to go...sign*

Originally posted by MikeboydUS

If it was a Past King, and I'm beginning to really think its not. It would of been Nabonidus, the Last King of Babylon before its conquest by Persia.

It clearly is talking about a Babylonian King, but it not Nabonidus.

I'm leaning towards the idea that the Prophecy may yet be fulfilled. 1899 Babylon is excavated. 1985 Restoration of Babylon begins. 2003 The US military occupies Babylon and begins construction a large military base there. 2006 Iraq and the UN agree to build hotels and even an Amusement Park there. So this Last King of Babylon may yet live.

The prophecy will not be fulfilled until later.

However as far as Babylon and the land of the Chaldeans go, you are witnessing the fulfillment of Jeremiah 50 and 51 and Isaiah 13 right now.

Originally posted by MikeboydUS
No one in their right mind would say Sauron was Anakin Skywalker.

Great thread, nice breakdown. Sun Matrix - It's been nice to read your take on things as well.

Just some interesting things I noticed while looking around...

Having only a KJV at my house, and curious how some other translations rendered Isaiah 14:12, I came across this translator's note on the NET Bible site:

The Hebrew text has הֵילֵל בֶּן־שָׁחַר (helel ben-shakhar, Helel son of Shachar), which is probably a name for the morning star (Venus) or the crescent moon. See HALOT 245 s.v. הֵילֵל.

That's interesting. I perused the bulk of this thread late last night and I'm not certain that I remember any direct mention of the crescent moon. Seems slightly ironic. Is that a reasonable interpretation -- an allusion to the crescent moon?

Referencing the parallel translations on bible.cc..., four of the twelve available (one-third) still retain the word "Lucifer." That's a funny coincidence, at least from a Miltonian sort of perspective The other two-thirds appear have gone a more direct route, typically using "morning star," "day star," or "shining one" rather than continue with Jerome's "Lucifer."

And finally...

I don't see why a number of you are getting riled up about this thread (aside from the fact that it appears many people are replying after reading the topic and none of the posts). The debate is about whether there is any biblical context that would support the notion that "Lucifer" is a reference to Satan (and consequently, if not, whether the words should be used interchangably), not about whether your faith is valid or anything divisively provocative such as that. Even the existence of the Devil is not being questioned by the OP per se. What *is* being questioned is a certain label applied to Satan. You don't have to defend anything here except to demonstrably prove why the term Lucifer should be retained (the on-topic way would be by proving that Lucifer and Satan are in fact the same entity -- thus far Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28 do not seem to be sufficient evidence).

/tn.


[edit on 20-8-2007 by teleonaut]

To correctly translate from the Hebrew, Isaiah 14:12 should have the name Lucifer replaced with 'Heylel,' which IS a proper name the same as Daniel or Samuel or Elijah.

It is the only place that name is found, but that is not unusual. However, it IS a name in the proper sense of the term.

Originally posted by Sun Matrix

Originally posted by MikeboydUS

If it was a Past King, and I'm beginning to really think its not. It would of been Nabonidus, the Last King of Babylon before its conquest by Persia.

It clearly is talking about a Babylonian King, but it not Nabonidus.

I'm leaning towards the idea that the Prophecy may yet be fulfilled. 1899 Babylon is excavated. 1985 Restoration of Babylon begins. 2003 The US military occupies Babylon and begins construction a large military base there. 2006 Iraq and the UN agree to build hotels and even an Amusement Park there. So this Last King of Babylon may yet live.

The prophecy will not be fulfilled until later.

However as far as Babylon and the land of the Chaldeans go, you are witnessing the fulfillment of Jeremiah 50 and 51 and Isaiah 13 right now.

If it was not going to go further Babylon should be nothing. Yet it is being rebuilt. You cant have partial fulfilment of prophecies. You cant pick and choose which parts are going to happen.

Thats the problem with saying this is some kind of fallen angel. The only way it works is out of context. You cant pick and choose. Either choose all of it or none of it.

Originally posted by MikeboydUS

If it was not going to go further Babylon should be nothing. Yet it is being rebuilt. You cant have partial fulfilment of prophecies.

We are in the middle of the fulfillment of Jeremiah 50 and 51 right now. We are attempting to heal Babylon...........BUT IT WILL NOT BE HEALED.

Jeremiah 51:8 Babylon is suddenly fallen and destroyed: howl for her; take balm for her pain, if so be she may be healed. 9 We would have healed Babylon, but she is not healed: forsake her, and let us go every one into his own country: for her judgment reacheth unto heaven, and is lifted up even to the skies.

Jeremiah50:41 Behold, a people shall come from the north, and a great nation, and many kings shall be raised up from the coasts of the earth.

We are in the middle of a three part judgment of Babylon.
Gulf War 1.....a coalition of nations from the coasts of the earth.
Gulf War 2.....a great nation, the United States
3. Final judgment........A people(not the U.S.) will come from the north. This will occur on the DAY OF THE LORD. If you understand the DAY OF THE LORD, read Isaiah 13.

You cant pick and choose which parts are going to happen.

I'm not.

Thats the problem with saying this is some kind of fallen angel. The only way it works is out of context. You cant pick and choose. Either choose all of it or none of it.

I have no problem with choosing all of it. The problem is two fold. First, no one understands who the Babylonian king is, they just run around and say that Isaiah 14 is talking about a Babylonian king.......so Lucifer can't be Satan.
Second, you need to apply the Bible to understand the Bible.

Ecclesiastes 1:9 The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.

Originally posted by Sun Matrix

Originally posted by MikeboydUS

If it was not going to go further Babylon should be nothing. Yet it is being rebuilt. You cant have partial fulfilment of prophecies.

We are in the middle of the fulfillment of Jeremiah 50 and 51 right now. We are attempting to heal Babylon...........BUT IT WILL NOT BE HEALED.

Jeremiah 51:8 Babylon is suddenly fallen and destroyed: howl for her; take balm for her pain, if so be she may be healed. 9 We would have healed Babylon, but she is not healed: forsake her, and let us go every one into his own country: for her judgment reacheth unto heaven, and is lifted up even to the skies.

Jeremiah50:41 Behold, a people shall come from the north, and a great nation, and many kings shall be raised up from the coasts of the earth.

We are in the middle of a three part judgment of Babylon.
Gulf War 1.....a coalition of nations from the coasts of the earth.
Gulf War 2.....a great nation, the United States
3. Final judgment........A people(not the U.S.) will come from the north. This will occur on the DAY OF THE LORD. If you understand the DAY OF THE LORD, read Isaiah 13.

You cant pick and choose which parts are going to happen.

I'm not.

Thats the problem with saying this is some kind of fallen angel. The only way it works is out of context. You cant pick and choose. Either choose all of it or none of it.

I have no problem with choosing all of it. The problem is two fold. First, no one understands who the Babylonian king is, they just run around and say that Isaiah 14 is talking about a Babylonian king.......so Lucifer can't be Satan.
Second, you need to apply the Bible to understand the Bible.

Ecclesiastes 1:9 The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.

Jerimiah 50 and 51 may yet come to pass. I'm not disagreeing with that. When I look at the text G-d continuously reminds Israel that He is destroying Babylon for the fall of Jerusalem and Judah. He also references Assyria. This makes me think it could of came to pass, but then these passages occur.

39 "So desert creatures and hyenas will live there,
and there the owl will dwell.
It will never again be inhabited
or lived in from generation to generation.

40 As God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah
along with their neighboring towns,"
declares the LORD,
"so no one will live there;
no man will dwell in it.

26 No rock will be taken from you for a cornerstone,
nor any stone for a foundation,
for you will be desolate forever,"
declares the LORD.

27 "Lift up a banner in the land!
Blow the trumpet among the nations!
Prepare the nations for battle against her;
summon against her these kingdoms:
Ararat, Minni and Ashkenaz.
Appoint a commander against her;
send up horses like a swarm of locusts.

Ashkenaz traditionally is the Germanic peoples which means most of Western Europe and a good portion of the US population. Anglos, Franks, etc.

29 The land trembles and writhes,
for the LORD's purposes against Babylon stand—
to lay waste the land of Babylon
so that no one will live there.

31 One courier follows another
and messenger follows messenger
to announce to the king of Babylon
that his entire city is captured,

37 Babylon will be a heap of ruins,
a haunt of jackals,
an object of horror and scorn,
a place where no one lives.

To me this means the city has to be finished being rebuilt which it hasnt yet. There are also numerous parallels to Isaiah.

Isaiah 13

4 Listen, a noise on the mountains,
like that of a great multitude!
Listen, an uproar among the kingdoms,
like nations massing together!
The LORD Almighty is mustering
an army for war.

5 They come from faraway lands,
from the ends of the heavens—
the LORD and the weapons of his wrath—
to destroy the whole country.

19 Babylon, the jewel of kingdoms,
the glory of the Babylonians' pride,
will be overthrown by God
like Sodom and Gomorrah.

20 She will never be inhabited
or lived in through all generations;
no Arab will pitch his tent there,
no shepherd will rest his flocks there.

This is about identical to Jeremiah 50:40.

21 But desert creatures will lie there,
jackals will fill her houses;
there the owls will dwell,
and there the wild goats will leap about

22 Hyenas will howl in her strongholds,
jackals in her luxurious palaces.
Her time is at hand,
and her days will not be prolonged.

These numerous references to desert creatures almost identical. Note these are refences to demonic spirits not real animals.

Isaiah 14, the chapter against the King of Babylon, Chapter 13 was against Babylon itself.

22 "I will rise up against them,"
declares the LORD Almighty.
"I will cut off from Babylon her name and survivors,
her offspring and descendants,"
declares the LORD.

23 "I will turn her into a place for owls
and into swampland;
I will sweep her with the broom of destruction,"
declares the LORD Almighty.

This is how the prophecy against the King ends, as you can see clearly Jeremiah 50-51 and Isaiah 13-14 are referencing the same event. Its not a fictional story about a fallen angel falling from Heaven. Its the Fall of Babylon and its King.

It continues on against Assyria and Moab.

As you can see these are not references to HaSatan of Job or even fallen angels. Its the Judgement of a mortal Kingdom and its mortal King.

Originally posted by MikeboydUS

This is how the prophecy against the King ends, as you can see clearly Jeremiah 50-51 and Isaiah 13-14 are referencing the same event. Its not a fictional story about a fallen angel falling from Heaven. Its the Fall of Babylon and its King.

Agreed, Jeremiah 50 and 51 and Isaiah 13 are the same event. The judgment against Babylon..........Not the city of Babylon, but the land of the Chaldeans and the cities. When this judgment is completed during the DAY OF THE LORD........no man will live in the land. You are witnessing the prophecy in the middle of it fulfillment right now.

Jeremaah 50:1 The word that the LORD spake against Babylon and against the land of the Chaldeans by Jeremiah the prophet.

Jeremiah 50:32 And the most proud shall stumble and fall, and none shall raise him up: and I will kindle a fire in his cities, and it shall devour all round about him.

I am not implying that Isaiah 14 is talking about the above. You brought up Iraq and I showed you what is really happening in Iraq right now.....Jeremiah 50 and 51 and Isaiah 13.

As for Isaiah 14, it cannot be understood until the Babylonian king is identified.

found this... this might help..

it was a pdf from a torrent site... so no link sorry...

Let's Take A Look At Satan

It could easily be argued that the biggest villain in history is Satan. After all, according to Christian doctrine it was Satan who tricked Eve into eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil which set in motion an incredibly unfortunate chain of events known as the "fall of man". Here's the story:

Gen 3:1-4,13
Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.

Notice that the text says nothing about Satan. It states that a talking serpent confronted Eve and deceived her into eating the forbidden fruit.

Also according to Christianity, all of mankind is under the curse of "original sin" which postulates that all are born into sin and deserve to spend eternity in hell unless they are saved by the Christian man/god savior named Jesus. The curse of original sin via Adam and Eve is established in the following New Testament verses:

Rom 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Rom 5:17
For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.

Rom 5:19
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

In other words, all of mankind which has existed in the past, exists at this time, and that will exist in the future are cursed as a result of Satan tricking Eve in the Garden of Eden. Eve then persuaded Adam to also eat the fruit and thus both of them and all their descendants were doomed to be "sinners".

Let's take a closer look at this character called Satan, who Christians proclaim is the source of all these problems in the world. To begin, as already noted, Satan never appears in the story of Adam and Eve which is described in the book of Genesis. Satan's name never even appears in the book of Genesis at all. Eve was tricked by a "talking serpent" which is never identified as a being called Satan.

Where do Christians get this idea that the talking serpent in the Garden of Eden was Satan? They establish their claim on a few verses, none of which are found in the Old Testament(OT). Two New Testament(NT) verses are:

Rev 12:9
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Rev 20:2
And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

But these verses are built on thin air. We have NO reference from the OT which confirms that Satan is a serpent, or a talking serpent, or that Satan was even in the Garden of Eden. The Christian claim that it was Satan who tricked Eve is entirely concocted from a few verses in the NT which cannot be confirmed by any OT scripture.

Jesus was recorded as saying he saw Satan fall from heaven:

Luke 10:18
And he(Jesus) said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

This also cannot be confirmed by the OT as there is no scripture which establishes this. Also lost in all the Christian advertising about Satan is that God cursed the serpent who tricked Eve.

Gen 3:14
And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

The serpent will be doomed to crawling on it's belly and it will eat dust all the days of it's life. God didn't mention if the serpents ability to talk would be taken away so we don't know if the serpent would be able to talk after the curse was invoked.
Now if this serpent was really Satan as Christians proclaim to the world, then we have a few problems here:

Satan was doomed to crawl on his belly and eat dust all the days of his life. However the NT states that Satan tempted Jesus long after the incident in the Garden of Eden.

Matt 4:8-10
Again, the devil(Satan) taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.
Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

If Satan took Jesus to the top of a very high mountain, it would have taken a rather long time since Satan was doomed to crawl on his belly the whole trip. And how could Jesus bow down and worship Satan if Satan was already on his belly? Could Jesus have bowed down lower than the ground itself?

And if Satan was the talking serpent who was doomed by God to crawl on his belly, how then could we have the following verses from the book of Job?:

Job 1:6-7
Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
(Satan in the Old Testament is man's accuser, and not an adversary of God)

Satan is one of the angels or sons of God. The text does not say that a talking serpent also presented himself before God. Satan says he has been roaming the earth, going back and forth in it. This would have taken a great deal of time if Satan was crawling on his belly, occasionally stopping from time to time to eat some dust. In other words, there is no reason to believe that God EVER cursed Satan with the same curse that he used on the talking serpent in the Garden of Eden.

Contrary to what mainstream Christianity proclaims to the world, the talking serpent and Satan are not the same entity and have nothing to do with each other.
The OT does not support the assertions by Christians that Satan is responsible for the deception of Eve and Adam. Nor does the OT support the often made Christian claim that Satan is the source of "evil" and the enemy of God.

There is not one instance in the OT where Satan disobeys a command from God. The book of Job also reveals that Satan and God wanted to wager against each other regarding the character of mankind who Satan would like to find fault with. God then suggests to Satan that he consider Job for a test of endurance.

Job 1:8
And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

God then gives permission for Satan to begin the torment of Job:

Job 1:12
And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

This sets in motion a series of deaths and calamities upon the livestock, servants, and family of the righteous Job so that God and Satan can see which of them is right about the character of Job.
All of these events were allowed by God. Satan was given permission to use whatever means he deemed appropriate to "test" Job. However God instructs Satan not to harm Job himself.

Satan obeys the guidelines which God gave to him. As Job doesn't curse God, the torture is continued as God again suggests that Job would be an ideal candidate for this type of cosmic wager between two "higher" beings. The angels once again present themselves before God in Job 2 and Satan again asserts he is roaming the earth. God then, for the second time, suggests the unfortunate (yet righteous) Job as a good candidate for a torture test..

Job 2:3
And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.

The cosmic wager continues with new guidelines issued by God:

Job 2:5-7(Satan states)
But put forth thine hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse thee to thy face.
And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life.
So went Satan forth from the presence of the LORD, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown.

Job is then subjected to a number of revolting physical ailments and torments. As an aside, the fact that the blameless, righteous Job was afflicted with physical torments of any type exposes a major Bible contradiction in that Prov 12:21 declares:

Prov 12:21
There shall no evil happen to the just: but the wicked shall be filled with mischief.

During the entire scenario in which this cosmic wager between God and Satan plays out, Satan never once disobeys God. Satan never "rebels" and shows no signs of ever having fallen from heaven as Jesus declared in Luke 10:18.
It is God who recommends (twice) that the righteous Job would be a good candidate for torture. Job's servants, his cattle and his children are all killed as part of this cosmic wager and God never lifts so much as a holy finger to restore those who were exterminated in the process of this wager being played out. Nor does God express any concern over the fact that innocent bystanders were killed.

Satan is simply one of God's court of angels, whose function is to find fault in man and to be his accuser. Satan was created by God and serves Gods purpose. Who is the villain in this story? There isn't one verse in the entire OT where a character named Satan ever disobeys God or is identified as a fallen rebellious angel. Another insightful example into the nature of the Bible God and Satan is found in the following:

1 Chron 21:1
And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.

This verse would appear to indicate that Satan stirred up trouble against Israel. However from another book in the Bible, the same incident is described much differently.

2 Sam 24:1
And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.

What we have here is one event with two different protagonists. In one case it was God who incited David to take a census of Israel, while in another case it was Satan who incited David.

Bible apologists will often attempt to explain this contradiction away by claiming that God simply used Satan to accomplish his work of inciting David in an attempt to smooth over this glaring problem.
The problem doesn't go away however. It manifests into an even bigger problem if the NT claims about Satan are to be believed. If Satan is a rebellious angel who was cast down from heaven, there is no reason to believe that he would wish to cooperate with God in any way.

If Satan was the tool which God used to incite David then that means Satan is easily used and controlled by God. God can harness Satan anytime he wishes. This leads to the embarrassing conclusion that all the hype and hoopla from Christians about Satan being a clever, deceitful enemy who sneaks up on people and leads them into sin, overlooks the fact that all the time, God is controlling and using Satan to accomplish whatever whims he wishes to indulge in. Satan is but a puppet on the manipulative hand of God. The incredibly "evil" Satan is in actuality, one of God's tools which God uses to do his will.

The most disturbing conclusion awaits just ahead. If it was God who incited David to take a census of Israel, either by himself or using Satan to do it, we are left with a revolting display of Godly behavior. After the census was taken, the story continues:

2 Sam 24:10-15
And David's heart smote him after that he had numbered the people. And David said unto the LORD, I have sinned greatly in that I have done: and now, I beseech thee, O LORD, take away the iniquity of thy servant; for I have done very foolishly.
For when David was up in the morning, the word of the LORD came unto the prophet Gad, David's seer, saying,
Go and say unto David, Thus saith the LORD, I offer thee three things; choose thee one of them, that I may do it unto thee.
So Gad came to David, and told him, and said unto him, Shall seven years of famine come unto thee in thy land? or wilt thou flee three months before thine enemies, while they pursue thee? or that there be three days' pestilence in thy land? now advise, and see what answer I shall return to him that sent me.
And David said unto Gad, I am in a great strait: let us fall now into the hand of the LORD; for his mercies are great: and let me not fall into the hand of man.
So the LORD sent a pestilence upon Israel from the morning even to the time appointed: and there died of the people from Dan even to Beersheba seventy thousand men.

God first incites or moves David to take a census:

2 Sam 24:1
And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.

David does exactly as he is moved to do by God. David then realizes he sinned. How David realizes this is unknown.
How was doing what God moved him to do a sin? The "sin" was in numbering the Levites, which is a violation according to Num 1:49 and Num 26:62. This explanation is only found in the 1 Chron 21 version of this story and is not found in the 2 Sam 24 version.

1 Chron 21:5-8
And Joab gave the sum of the number of the people unto David. And all they of Israel were a thousand thousand and an hundred thousand men that drew sword: and Judah was four hundred threescore and ten thousand men that drew sword.
But Levi and Benjamin counted he not among them: for the king's word was abominable to Joab.
And God was displeased with this thing; therefore he smote Israel.
And David said unto God, I have sinned greatly, because I have done this thing: but now, I beseech thee, do away the iniquity of thy servant; for I have done very foolishly.

Note: The census count totals also differ. The 1 Chron 21 version records a total of 1,570,000 men and the 2 Sam 24 version records 1,300,000 men.

The manipulation of David by God in which God "moves", compels, or silently instructs David to order an improper census is based on God being angry at Israel.
The "sin" David committed was inspired by God, not by David. God was using David as a tool to take vengence on Israel for some unspecified transgression. If David had ordered a proper census, God would have had no valid reason to punish Israel.
An improper census was needed to generate a sin, which is then used as a reason for God to vent his wrath.
This whole census episode reeks of Godly manipulation.

Of course, Christian apologists will claim that it was David who committed the sin, so God's hands are clean.
However, the Bible elsewhere states that David had always done what was right in the eyes of the Lord all the days of his life, except in one matter(adultery) which is unrelated to this census issue:

1 Kings 15:5
Because David did that which was right in the eyes of the LORD, and turned not aside from any thing that he commanded him all the days of his life, save only in the matter of Uriah the Hittite.

If, as this verse proclaims, David obeyed God and did that which was right in the eyes of the Lord and turned not aside from any thing that God commanded him, except in one matter unrelated to the census, then he did not sin in the matter of the census. David was manipulated by God to "sin" when David ordered an improper census.
And if he sinned by carrying out God's will, what do you suppose would have happened if he had disobeyed and decided not to take a census?

As 2 Sam 24:10-15 shows, the Bible God then sinks deeper into psychosis by offering David three "options" of punishment for his "sin". David turns the decision over to God after declaring that he doesn't want to fall into the hands of men and God proceeds to kill 70,000 people by using a plague on them.

The Bible God has incited a man to do his bidding, then establishes that by following his instructions, the man has sinned. God then exterminates 70,000 innocent people for the "sin" of a man who was following God's instructions in the first place. This is the same God Christians claim is all holy, all righteous, all loving, who cannot tolerate sin, deserving of all praise and worship, and who holds the moral high ground of the universe. These same Christians chirp about how loving their God is, while decrying Satan as the epitome of "evil" who is responsible for all the ills of mankind and the world.

In light of the behavior demonstrated by God and not by Satan, it would be hard to find a verse more absurd than the following often quoted verse used by Christians to inspire their faith in God:

Eph 6:11
Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil(Satan).

In reality, the evidence from the Bible indicates that it's God who is the schemer and not Satan.

This is the type of theological swamp in which Christianity has laid it's foundations . The next time you hear a Christian attempt to tap dance around these types of disturbing issues relating to their God and their arch enemy Satan, the response should be: If you really believe the Bible is the word of a God worthy of your worship, then you're stuck with exactly the type God you deserve.

reply to post by Sun Matrix


The King of Babylon the Bible tells us of is Nebudchanezzar. He captured the tribe of Judah and took them captive. He is a type of Satan that God warns us of. As that king of Babylon captured Judah so will Satan try to capture God's children in the end of days. The parallels are that the prophet Jeremiah warned them it would happen and they didn't believe him. This is as God is warning us today that Satan is coming but many do not believe. - They will be taken.

Originally posted by whirlwind
reply to post by Sun Matrix

 

The King of Babylon the Bible tells us of is Nebudchanezzar. He captured the tribe of Judah and took them captive. He is a type of Satan that God warns us of. As that king of Babylon captured Judah so will Satan try to capture God's children in the end of days. The parallels are that the prophet Jeremiah warned them it would happen and they didn't believe him. This is as God is warning us today that Satan is coming but many do not believe. - They will be taken.

No, the king of Babylon in Isaiah 14 is not nebuchadnezzar.

SOME of you guys don't hesitate to spread far and wide YOUR interpretation of the words of the prophets (which obviously you DO believe to be such) and yet you totally IGNORE the warnings found in the 27th chapter of Jeremiah.

Furthermore...IRAQ is not, by virtue of being the same parcel of LAND suspected to be PART of ancient Babylon, the Babylon spoken of in the words of the Prophets. Your take literally all things and totally exclude the finer points of symbolic code and the proof is right here:

And now have I given all these lands into the hand of Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon, my servant; and the beasts of the field have I given him also to serve him. And all nations shall serve him, and his son, and his son's son, until the very time of his land come: and then many nations and great kings shall serve themselves of him. And it shall come to pass, that the nation and kingdom which will not serve the same Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon, and that will not put their neck under the yoke of the king of Babylon, that nation will I punish, saith the LORD, with the sword, and with the famine, and with the pestilence, until I have consumed them by his hand. Therefore hearken not ye to your prophets, nor to your diviners, nor to your dreamers, nor to your enchanters, nor to your sorcerers, which speak unto you, saying, Ye shall not serve the king of Babylon: For they prophesy a lie unto you, to remove you far from your land; and that I should drive you out, and ye should perish. But the nations that bring their neck under the yoke of the king of Babylon, and serve him, those will I let remain still in their own land, saith the LORD; and they shall till it, and dwell therein.
Jeremiah 27:6-11

Any nation destroyed, by war or famine or any other catastrophe, is NOT going to be Babylon. God will make a NEW one, not rebuild an OLD one.

And Nebuchadnezzar lives among us even in this very generation.

But of course I am wasting my time even typing this post. Oh well.

have a nice evening!

Originally posted by queenannie38

Furthermore...IRAQ is not, by virtue of being the same parcel of LAND suspected to be PART of ancient Babylon, the Babylon spoken of in the words of the Prophets. Your take literally all things and totally exclude the finer points of symbolic code and the proof is right here:

Yes, I take it exactly word for word literal.........and guess what....it's being fulfilled right now, just like it says.

Any nation destroyed, by war or famine or any other catastrophe, is NOT going to be Babylon.

Well, you best look the other way, because it's happening right now...and will continue to happen.

God will make a NEW one, not rebuild an OLD one.

The Antichrist will raise his kingdom soon, but it won't be in the land of the Chaldeans.

reply to post by Sun Matrix


ignoring/not understanding the symbolism makes literal interpretation confusion - as you can see day after day on these forums.

to apply the symbols does NOT forfeit the literalism, it only clarifies it.

i can NOT look the other way - every where i look, i see.

anything 'against' the teachings of Christ is antichrist. The main one being 'love your God' and then 'love your neighbor.'

what i see, all around, is that people love their opinions more than they do anything else. that started long before Christ ever manifested; but it will not always be and that day is imminently on the horizon. whatever it takes, LOVE will overcome and there WILL be peace.

'When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know Peace.' ~ Jimi Hendrix

ABSOLUTE TRUTH

Originally posted by queenannie38
.

But of course I am wasting my time even typing this post. Oh well.

What makes you say that,Annie? By the way, it's good to see you still pop in.

To those who sincerely would like to know the true identity of He
who on Earth is known as Satan, the devil, Lucifer etc. etc.,
should click on the following link:


www.vandrermodlyset.dk...

In the transcendental world he was known as the eldest of the eldest,
but has requested that mankind now and in the future should know him
by the name of 'Ardor'.

Follow closely the advise given in the preface before reading his account,
and I'm sure the tolerant, kind and openminded of you, gladly will respect
this wish of his!



PS!
More detailed comments of this whole episode can be found in the book
"Questions and Answers" (first and second supplement to 'Toward the Light')
Which should be available in libraries or certain bookshops!

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
What makes you say that,Annie? By the way, it's good to see you still pop in.

Basically because of the type of answers immediately preceding mine and following yours...

thanks for being glad to see me! i have missed this place...and you and others..even Sun Matrix!

*smooch* to you, Sun [wink]