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No free will, or God isn't perfect

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posted on Aug, 16 2007 @ 10:25 AM
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I believe most Christians believe that God is All Knowing/Perfect/Infallable (did I spell that right? lol). Most also believe that we humans have free will.

per·fect /adj., n. ˈpɜrfɪkt; v. pərˈfɛkt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[adj., n. pur-fikt; v. per-fekt] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective

1. entirely without any flaws, defects, or shortcomings: a perfect apple; the perfect crime.

If God is perfect/all knowing/infallable, then God knows everything past, present, and future, correct? And we have free will, correct? I propose God can NOT know the future if we have free will, for if God knows the future, we're merely on a pre-determined path to what God already knows. Therefor God is NOT all knowing, OR we do not have free will.

One argument I've heard is "God knows the future, but you decide how it plays out..." this would suggest that God merely knows certain points in the future, and our paths up to those points is ours to choose...in this case, God is still not all knowing, or he would know every single action we take ahead of time, rather than certain points in time.

another arguement: God knows all possible outcomes, but you choose which outcome takes place. My response to this is that God can't possibly know all outcomes, because there is only one outcome to any situation. I.E. if I reach for my pen, I can't possibly grab it and not grab it at the same time. Therefor either God knows the ONE outcome, and we don't have free will, or God DOESN'T know the outcome, and therefor is not perfect.

Before I end this, let me put another dictionary term in here:

free will
–noun 1. free and independent choice; voluntary decision: You took on the responsibility of your own free will.
2. Philosophy. the doctrine that the conduct of human beings expresses personal choice and is not simply determined by physical or divine forces.

By this definition, if God has already determined our future, we're not making personal choices. We may think we are, but we're not, because we're just headed for what God already knows is going to happen.

and...........I'm spent




posted on Aug, 16 2007 @ 10:46 AM
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Originally posted by Jaruseleh
another arguement: God knows all possible outcomes, but you choose which outcome takes place.


But if this god is perfect he already knows all the possible outcome of every event in the universe for eternity, thus he knows which outcome you will choose no matter what.



posted on Aug, 16 2007 @ 10:55 AM
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Originally posted by DarkSide

Originally posted by Jaruseleh
another arguement: God knows all possible outcomes, but you choose which outcome takes place.


But if this god is perfect he already knows all the possible outcome of every event in the universe for eternity, thus he knows which outcome you will choose no matter what.


Exactly...so therefore there would be no free will because all outcomes are already known. If any of the outcomes were NOT known, it would be possible to have free will, but then God would not be perfect because there's something he wouldn't know.

(just a note: I think I worded that section of my original post horribly after going back and re-reading it. I make it sound like there is only one possible outcome to any situation, whereas I meant that there is only 1 result, but multiple possible results. my bad.
)



posted on Aug, 16 2007 @ 05:12 PM
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If god is really all-knowing and since he supposedly created us, then there is no free-will. We are just pre-programmed like a computer.



posted on Aug, 18 2007 @ 08:59 PM
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God knows everything. We are with him from the beggining or not since time does not exist.

However.

Knowing doesnt make us decide. If he knows we dont. If we dont than we make decisions. If we say im going where im going, so why try, then you have a weak soul.

We make our own destiny, yet we know nothing, but we have confidence if we believe and keep his words.

we have nothing to fear.

So free will exist.

Just because God knows, he doesnt control your arm, you still decide. if you want hell you choose it, as a matter of fact souls in hell if offered repentance just dont want to worship.

So this argument doesnt work.

I believe in free will.



posted on Aug, 18 2007 @ 09:40 PM
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Originally posted by JesusisTruth
if you want hell you choose it, as a matter of fact souls in hell if offered repentance just dont want to worship.


And how is this known? Is there a direct phoneline to this so called hell?




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