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Dutch Bishop Tells Christians to Call God 'Allah'

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posted on Aug, 18 2007 @ 08:23 PM
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Originally posted by The time lord
I thought Allah has 99 names in the koran except the word love in his description?


They're more titles/attributes than names. For example, one of them is Al-Rafiq, meaning, "The friend." There are also "The most merciful," "The most powerful," and "The giver of life," "The first," and so on.




posted on Aug, 18 2007 @ 09:33 PM
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Originally posted by Leyla
Oh well ok Bodrul I'm sorry. I wasn't being childish. I stated I will not call God Allah. Thats my view and my belief. I'm sorry you don't like it.


You know what, if everyone just got off their own little pedastools for a second and just realise what is being discussed here!

Leyla says "I will not call God (Allah in arabic) Allah (God in English)"..

So, to simplify, he/she is saying "I will not call God, God..."

Do you realise how stupid that sounds?

It's the same word, people!! What is the argument about? It's exactly like computer=ordinateur or lightning=blitz. It's just a different language, for crying out loud, but the meaning is the same! You don't go round telling the French that your computer is better because it's called a computer, do you?

Just to add, I've noticed some of here saying they worship Jesus as God. Couple of points I need to make. (please note, whilst I am an atheist, I have actually read the bible several times.)


  1. Jesus never claimed he was a God and in fact, told people the contrary. To worship him as a god is blasphemous
  2. The Catholic Church is blasphemous through and through. They commit idolatry and blasphemy on a daily basis. The ten commandments state that you should worship no other, yet you all worship Jesus and the associated idols that adorn Catholicism.
  3. Where, in the bible, does it mention the "Holy Trinity" or that Jesus is God? The Trinity seems to be a catholic thing, which in itself is an attempt by the Roman empire to mold Christianity into something the pagan romans would accept.


Seems ironic there are some claiming that Islam is a Moon cult, when it is quite clear to most that the Catholic Church has and continues to ignore the most basic Commandments of God and is in fact a Jesus cult, as opposed to worshiping God and God alone.



posted on Aug, 18 2007 @ 10:30 PM
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Originally posted by stumason

Originally posted by Leyla
Oh well ok Bodrul I'm sorry. I wasn't being childish. I stated I will not call God Allah. Thats my view and my belief. I'm sorry you don't like it.


You know what, if everyone just got off their own little pedastools for a second and just realise what is being discussed here!

Leyla says "I will not call God (Allah in arabic) Allah (God in English)"..

So, to simplify, he/she is saying "I will not call God, God..."

Do you realise how stupid that sounds?

It's the same word, people!! What is the argument about? It's exactly like computer=ordinateur or lightning=blitz. It's just a different language, for crying out loud, but the meaning is the same! You don't go round telling the French that your computer is better because it's called a computer, do you?

Just to add, I've noticed some of here saying they worship Jesus as God. Couple of points I need to make. (please note, whilst I am an atheist, I have actually read the bible several times.)


  1. Jesus never claimed he was a God and in fact, told people the contrary. To worship him as a god is blasphemous
  2. The Catholic Church is blasphemous through and through. They commit idolatry and blasphemy on a daily basis. The ten commandments state that you should worship no other, yet you all worship Jesus and the associated idols that adorn Catholicism.
  3. Where, in the bible, does it mention the "Holy Trinity" or that Jesus is God? The Trinity seems to be a catholic thing, which in itself is an attempt by the Roman empire to mold Christianity into something the pagan romans would accept.



i have to say you got it there. i'm a Christian by life experience not by family up bringing and have read the bible 2 and a half times. the holy trinity is a catholic " church " term. from what i gathered God is so powerful that in order to fully show his power and love by putting himself in a man "possession" and not just a burning bush or voice, it would destroy the person. God created Jesus to to represent himself threw his son who he favored. he is his son with the Power of God and by living the path of a man understood how hard it is to live without being sinful. thus being able to forgive us and our sins. God has given powers over us to his angles and even more so to his son who sits beside him to judge us with him. to believe and know Jesus who judges us with the father is our only saving grace. GOD wants us to believe in him and have the faith in his son as well for he who doesn't is doomed to be unforgiven. my wife is catholic and always goes to church but has never read the bible. she doesn't appreciate my comments like yours about the church. and God is God lets not argue how to pronounce it in other languages because thats just crazy. Muslim Christian and Jewish faith basically has the same foundation just different additions to the end.
religion has always been used by MEN in leadership against the enemy to point a difference between themselves and the other side. Giving there masses a justifiable reason to march ahead in acts of WAR. perhaps in the name of God but never in the warship of. Since the late 70s or 80's some twisted group of muslins from iran used little children strapped with bombs in a war against iraq as a last defense. it was said they were dieing for god. Now its a trend that has spread and is known as terrorism. it's no more Muslim then walking backwards is Christian. it's the masses turning into pawns on the chess board of life. Easy to fool the poor and ignorant who have nothing to lose.



posted on Aug, 19 2007 @ 12:58 AM
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God, Allah, Buddah, Yahweh....it's all really the same thing. "God" is not so much a person, as a spiritual force, an energy. I cannot quite fathom "god" as a bearded old coot living up in the clouds, clad only in a robe, toting a cane/staff, tending sheep all day, who easily gets ticked off at people who don't blindly worship him, and who has a hair-trigger tendency to mass-murder whole nations. To me, this would be a "god" in severe need of the "couch" and a couple tons of Prozac.

I picture "god" as "the essence of all that is good". Sounds logical to me. Oh, wait...we're not supposed to be logical, we're supposed to shut up, pay, pray, and obey ! Aren't we ???

This "Jesus" character was reputed to teach peace, love, etc. Not war. So where did the "christian" "church" get off-track ?

We have much more important things to do than squabble about petty religious differences. All this good-for-nothing "bishop" has done is to further divide the people, and push hatred one step further.

"Divide the people into hostile groups by controversial matters of no importance"...I'll leave it up to the reader to figure out the origin of that statement.

DG

[edit on 19-8-2007 by Dale Gribble]



posted on Aug, 19 2007 @ 06:31 AM
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Well..perfect move from this bishop..bravo!
In general people seem to be paranoid about the presence of muslims in this country (Holland).

The public thinks that muslims are too conservative when it comes to the values of a liberal society like Holland.

How confronting to see how these so called "liberals" respond to a kind of innocent suggestion of one of the most conservative movements of the past decades.

ofcourse...its clear, nowadays we have started to believe that the whole world is threatened by the Islam and how convienent for those who gain from this threat, so..we attack the islamic world unless they obey and follow our footsteps because there is only one way and thats the american way isnt it?

anyway...pathetic to see how this real openminded dutch society changed into a country of anxious conservatives, holding on to the idea that if we dont defend our values the muslims will take over.

Nice sign of self-esteem...Rome trying to protect us from our downfall and open new doors to a different approach...guess Rome learned a lesson from the past



posted on Aug, 19 2007 @ 07:29 AM
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if im not mistaken im sure it wasnt long ago that islam was telling the pope to say sorry & if the pope didnt say sorry then islam was going to kill him. mmmm, now the catholics want to call god allah !!!.

as usual the religios communitys are confused once again. maybe all the planets religions should unite on a more common basis, like the one thing they all have in common with each other is a severe lack of common sence.



posted on Aug, 19 2007 @ 07:31 AM
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I think there are a few things that need to be said here. First of all, religion does not cause war or conflict. Simple observation will show that the largest death tolls due to war has not been caused by theists, but by atheists, i.e. joseph stalin who was communist and atheist, and mao tze tong. Hitler repudiated religion. He was born Catholic, but eventually hated Catholics so much that he sent hundreds, maybe thousands of Catholics, including priests to their deaths. Religion is definitely not the cause of war, irreligion is. Every human race in the world from the earliest prehistoric times have sought out God. That's because we are naturally inclined to seek God, because he created us.

The second issue is calling God 'Allah'. This would be inappropriate. As Christians, we say God, which is not God's name. For example, if we lived under King George. It would be like us saying King. However, for Muslims, Allah is what they consider to be God's proper name. So, for them it's like saying George. As Christians, we do not recognize God by the name Allah. Jews used the name Yahweh for God, and as Christians, we sometimes do the same.

The real peace makers in the world are those who have lived their call to holiness by God, through their religion. Prior to about 50 years ago, nearly every hospital and school was built by churches. The ambulance system that we know today came about by religious orders. The concept that every human being has dignity as a person and needs to be respected is a concept from religion, from God's revelation to us. There has been a lot of propaganda to try to turn people against religion, but if you truly study it with an open mind, you will see that religion has brought peace and prosperity to the world, especially Christianity in terms of the Western world. I think people who are anti-religion, or anti-God, are like children of millionaires who grew up in the lap of luxury, and now that they're older just mock and criticize their parents. In centuries gone by people starved and lived in so much suffering, but now for the most part we live in peace and happiness, and joy, but sometimes people act like a spoiled child who doesn't see all of these because they have so much. Seek God, for he is the source of your life, and your being. Place your trust in Him!



posted on Aug, 19 2007 @ 08:45 AM
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reply to post by xmotex
 


Don't worry I was calm- can't say that for Bodrul though. Yikes. He bugged out on me.



Heh looks like someone got up on the wrong side of the bed.



posted on Aug, 19 2007 @ 09:07 AM
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Originally posted by xmotex

Pardon me, but I did not see where Bodrul told you to call God Allah, or anything else.





i would like to see her answer that.

had to file a complaint just to get her to stop U2Uing me
bad enough i had to reply to comments like will you kill me
then she barrages my Inbox with Random U2Us,


Thankfully shes on my ignore now
so i dont have to read her comments on the forum

[edit on 19-8-2007 by bodrul]



posted on Aug, 19 2007 @ 01:55 PM
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reply to post by djohnsto77
 


Maybe when "Allah" is no longer seen as the exclusive domain of Islam by Christians, the fear wielded by Islamic radical groups will disappear.

Anyway, "Allah" is clearly a cognate of "Eloah" in the Hebrew, which means "God who creates." I'm told it's a contraction of an ancient phrase, "El Alawah." In the Hebrew it is pluralized into "Elohim," some (particularly Jewish scholars) believing this is to express a concept of "Goddest God" or "God Most High," and others, usually of Christian persuasion, believing that the use of plural case also implies a simple plural meaning (especially given plural verb forms are used with it, not singular ones.) I go with both sides, I think it expresses both, just as "behemoth" means both a herd of beasts (singular "behe") or cattle, and a giant beast, monster, or what have you of immense size.

"God" is an English word, a cognate to all the Germanic g-d, g-t, g-th words of similar meaning, that has meant the Deity or a deity figure for a very long time, but originally (in the Gothic language) also meant a variety of other things, such as goods (good and God are also cognates for this reason), wealth, troops, good fortune, masses, people, crowd, and skull. The last meaning is how Anglo Saxon and other early Germanic took on the idea of deity, because the Goths (called "Gad" in their own language) worshiped skulls. "Gad" was the word for themselves as people, for skull, and for the "Gad" skull they worshiped. Putting together the puzzle pieces of linguistics is tricky maneuvering, but it is also my belief this is the same "Gad" as is found in the Hebrew language, which also means good fortune and troops and is the tribal name of Gad, one of the tribes of Israel. It also is cognated in Aramaic as "goth," plural "gotha," the word in Aramaic for skull, so I think the Goths got the meanings of the word from the Middle East usage. Calvary was Golgotha in Aramaic, "Hill of Skulls" on which Jesus Christ was crucified.

So, should the word "God" be rejected in Christianity because of its pagan usage? You could look at it two ways, on the one hand its history of association with skull worship, but on the other hand its etymology being traceable back to the Bible, through the Goths and back to the Lost Tribes of Israel, and its use in Christianity far longer than it was in European paganism for Deity. The word "Jesus" has a similar association in Celtic paganism, it existed a thousand years before the birth of Christ as "Yesu" in Celtic Britain. There is also a very strong ancient tradition of Celtic descent from Israel, and there is also an "Ishi" or "Yishi" ("my man") in the famous Hosea 1 "go take unto thee a wife of whoredoms" prophecy, and "Yishi" is the name the Lost Tribes call God when they return to God in the latter days. Cognates for two Celtic names for God are mentioned in this verse, Bel or Beli (Baal, as Baali, "my master"), and Yesu (Yishi or Ishi, "my man" or "my husband.")

I would say it's up to the believer to decide which name to use.... I personally prefer using "God," "Lord," "Jesus" because I'm used to them and I'm sure God is used to me calling on Him with those names. My native language is English and those are perfectly fine English names for the Almighty. But, I also use Hebrew names particularly when claiming promises of God, and I go to conjunctions of Yahweh- or Jehovah- (the Anglicized version of Yahweh) with promise name attachments like jireh for provision, rophi for healing, rohi for leading, sidkanu for righteousness (plumb line hanging straight), and so on. It's important to me to know the meanings of words, though, because words and things are said to be synonymous to God. If you're an Arab Christian go ahead and use "Allah," but if you speak English you have the same access with "God."



posted on Aug, 19 2007 @ 02:20 PM
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Originally posted by MikeboydUS

Originally posted by JbT
Hell, if it were up to me, all these religions would cease to exist.

Personally, I could care less what you guys want to call your imaginary friend.

That is what it is, an Imaginary Friend.... this imaginary friend just happens to be the sole cause for most if not all the wars the last 6000+ years.

Allah, God, The Boggy Man..... what is the difference? Either name results in one word.... WAR.

Maybe thats what we should call this imaginary friend.... WAR.

Even this topic, the result of it is going to be an online argument in the name of an imaginary figuer. Have fun with that.

I guess you can tell that I see relgious people like children in a play ground talking to them selfs about their imaginary tea party friends. You are all so imature and seemingly "stupid" to us "nonbelivers" of "God".

[edit on 15-8-2007 by JbT]


So we can blame Egyptian, Hittite, Babylonian, Assyrian, Persian, Aryan, Greek, Roman, and various other ancient conquests over 1700 years ago on a Monotheistic religion.

I dont think so. Humans will fight and kill as long as they exist. From 1700 years ago an on Religion has been an excuse to Justify the Violence. Before that Nations didnt have to Justify war and conquest by faith. They conquered for power and glory. Slaves and resources too.

By the time of the Renaissance Religion was no longer a good excuse. Nationalism, Exploration, Trade, and Resources became new excuses kind of like the same old excuses.

Lets look at the greatest wars in Human history at least in the West and one mention from China.

The Cold War: not motivated by religion.
World War 2: not motivated by religion, maybe except Japan.
World War 1: not motivated by religion
US Civil War: not motivated by religion

Chinese Civil War, Taipeng Rebellion: oh my we have a war motivated by a religious nut, who thought he was the brother of Christ.

Napoleonic War: not motivated by religion

Lots of religious conflict at the rise of the Protestant movement and during the Reformation.
Conquest of the Americas, primarily religious but also financial.

The Mongol Conquest: doesnt seem to be religious
The Crusades: A true full on Holy War.

I could go on but I think I made my point.

Instead of calling imaginary friends War, how about calling Humanity Violent. Humans are Warring Creatures. Always have been, always will be.

The Soviets wanted to wipe religion from the face of the earth. Well if that Isnt the Pot calling the Kettle black.


That's a good post. Religion doesn't cause war, sin does, or humanity's own warped nature does, and human nature being what it is, men seek justifications for their wicked actions to convince themselves that they aren't doing wrong.



posted on Aug, 19 2007 @ 02:39 PM
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Originally posted by Shambles
I fail to understand sometimes how a site that is about denying ignorance can even entertain a thread about religion, that said, religion is a major world issue so I can sort of understand its place here, although certainly some of the 'amazing' claims by most religions would not be allowed on the UFO forum without a crescendo of cries for proof (and the expected 'CGI...CGI' if any was presented
).

However some of the comments in this thread are beyond ignorant, they fall into closed minded bigotry!!

[edit on 16-8-2007 by Shambles]
Somehow I find that point of view about proof curious since few who post personal experiences of encounters with UFOs and aliens in this forum expect to wither a barrage of insults and demands for proof of their experiences. I myself have had such encounters with aliens and outside of this forum, on that subject, I get treated the same as many who present a religious claim here -- rather badly. If we are trying to foster an open exchange of ideas here, then we need to treat with respect those who present subjective experiences or "far-out" ideas to the forum whether they are UFO-related, earth mystery, conspiracy, religious, or whatever. Discuss, believe or disbelieve, debate, deny, all are good to have, but demanding anything from another forum poster just because you disagree with him -- that doesn't sit well with me, it's anti-freedom and anti-intellectualism at its root.



posted on Aug, 19 2007 @ 03:04 PM
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Originally posted by bodrul

Originally posted by xmotex

Pardon me, but I did not see where Bodrul told you to call God Allah, or anything else.





i would like to see her answer that.

had to file a complaint just to get her to stop U2Uing me
bad enough i had to reply to comments like will you kill me
then she barrages my Inbox with Random U2Us,


Thankfully shes on my ignore now
so i dont have to read her comments on the forum

[edit on 19-8-2007 by bodrul]



Well goody for you Bodrul I u2ued you to discuss this like adults and not to embarres you on the forums. I u2ued you 3 times total and 2 was in response to you. Allah is a old arabic moon god.

And I didn't say you told me to call God Allah I stated my intention and you throw a hissy fit.

Bodrul you are over reacting I didn't barrage your inbox. That would be me sending 10 to 15 messages. Hope you get your issues worked out.



posted on Aug, 19 2007 @ 03:15 PM
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Originally posted by ozzyfl
That's a good post. Religion doesn't cause war, sin does, or humanity's own warped nature does, and human nature being what it is, men seek justifications for their wicked actions to convince themselves that they aren't doing wrong.


Greed and the lust for power
its in all faiths Muslims, Christians, Jews, ect
people that will do anything to gain power and wealth at any cost



posted on Aug, 19 2007 @ 03:29 PM
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finally someone who does something what muslims have done for ages. Considering the other abrahamic religions as true religions as well.



posted on Aug, 19 2007 @ 03:53 PM
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Originally posted by Leyla
Allah is a old arabic moon god.


Is that so? Since you seem very educated enough to make a statement like this, care to define what "Al" and "Lah" mean, and where they are derived from?



posted on Aug, 19 2007 @ 04:29 PM
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Originally posted by proteus33
reply to post by ChilledVoodoo
 


YOU KNOW ITS SO STUPID TO FIGHT OVER THIS. JUDISM BEGAT CHRISTIANITY. CHRISTIANITY AND JUDISM BEGAT ISLAM. IN A COUPLE OF MORE CENTURIES ISLAM AND JUDISM AND CHRISTIANITY WILL BEGAT A NEW RELIGION. THEY ALL THREE SHARE THE SAME GOD JUST THEY CAN'T GET ALONG BECAUSE OF STUFF OTHER PEOPLE ADDED TO BASIC WORD OF GOD OVER YEARS. IF GOD COME TODAY I AM SURE HE WOULD TELL EVERYONE TO GROW UP AND PLAY NICE OR ELSE SUFFER HIS WRAITH.


Sadly the most intelligent post here. And thats saying something...

Despite the fact that he spelled Judaism wrong.



posted on Aug, 19 2007 @ 04:32 PM
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Originally posted by Kacen

Originally posted by proteus33
reply to post by ChilledVoodoo
 


YOU KNOW ITS SO STUPID TO FIGHT OVER THIS. JUDISM BEGAT CHRISTIANITY. CHRISTIANITY AND JUDISM BEGAT ISLAM. IN A COUPLE OF MORE CENTURIES ISLAM AND JUDISM AND CHRISTIANITY WILL BEGAT A NEW RELIGION. THEY ALL THREE SHARE THE SAME GOD JUST THEY CAN'T GET ALONG BECAUSE OF STUFF OTHER PEOPLE ADDED TO BASIC WORD OF GOD OVER YEARS. IF GOD COME TODAY I AM SURE HE WOULD TELL EVERYONE TO GROW UP AND PLAY NICE OR ELSE SUFFER HIS WRAITH.


Sadly the most intelligent post here. And thats saying something...

Despite the fact that he spelled Judaism wrong.


Also wrath...

Didn't want to spoil such a great post with an ugly edit mark.



posted on Aug, 19 2007 @ 08:08 PM
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Originally posted by DJMessiah

Originally posted by Leyla
Allah is a old arabic moon god.


Is that so? Since you seem very educated enough to make a statement like this, care to define what "Al" and "Lah" mean, and where they are derived from?


Outside source-

"Ilah . . . appears in pre-Islamic poetry . . . By frequency of usage, al-ilah was contracted to Allah, frequently attested to in pre-Islamic poetry" (Encyclopedia off Islam, III:1093, 1971).

I see it all the time- Allah- So why are you questioning me I didn't write the Koran.

Do you not know the history of Arabic? I'm sure you and Bodrul would know it better then me, since I'm not Arabic.

I ask a question and I get a video as a answer. Regarding Moon cycles...on the Islam thread. Go figure.


www.biblebelievers.org.au...

www.biblebelievers.org.au...

And Stumasion God and Allah are not the same- sure now its used to identify a god in arabic but not the Hebrew God.

Thats all I'm saying case closed.



posted on Aug, 19 2007 @ 09:17 PM
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This kinda reminds me of a conversation Conan (Arnold Schwarzenegger a.k.a. the Barbarian, from those old 80's fantasy movies) had with a magician while camping out for the night:

Conan> my god is better than yours since he sits in his throne at the highest peak of the world...

Magician> my god is better than yours since he is the god of the wind...and is higher than your god...

Conan makes the 'I'll be back' look...


Anyway just wanted to share this...and the whole thread reads like it was brought via time machine from the medieval times: MY God is better than yours!...NO! MY GOD is better! NO!!! YOUR god is SATAN!...NO!!! YOUR GOD is SATAN!!!

Geez go out, have some wine, walk on the park, kiss your man/woman, pet your dog, thank someone for being alive...It'll be over someday...don't waste time deciding the color of water...

Just my two cents!








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