Dear Reader, you are responsible for the oil wars

Originally posted by cavscout
Every person who reads this is responsible for the oil way in some way. Just logging on and using electricity, regardless of the source, is contributing.

Your right. Signing off now to not be a part of the oil racket.

Originally posted by cavscout
Can you imagine what would have happened if 6 months after the war in Iraq began Americans stopped driving to work? Even just half or a quarter of us? Even a tenth would have done the trick.

Sure. The price of gas and all related products would have doubled, so the oil companies could ensure profit as normal. If people stopped buying all together, they'd just jack up the price of the fuel they sell to the military. Oil guys get their profit, and the military can demand more budget. They both win.

Originally posted by cavscout
Can you imagine what would have happened if 6 months after the war in Iraq began Americans stopped driving to work? Even just half or a quarter of us? Even a tenth would have done the trick.

That's the problem here: the word "imagine".
You can imagine all you want, wish in one hand and crap in the other.
The world is what it is. It's nice to think about what could be but the cold, bitter truth is - this IS IT. Our society does not function the way you or I want it to. It functions by the way that the people that control it want. That's always the way it was and probably the way it will always be. Even Jesus himself said that "You will always have the poor amongst you". If He can face the hard facts, you should be able to do so as well. I suspect that a lot of the people posting on this thread are the Utopian Left, always dreaming about how things could be and never really looking at the way they are.

Originally posted by cavscout
Every person who reads this is responsible for the oil way in some way. Just logging on and using electricity, regardless of the source, is contributing.

Really? What if I told you that where I live, our electricity comes 100% from water, and that we even sell our leftovers to Ontario and to the United States? I don't see how I am contributing, not a tiny fraction of the electricity I use comes from oil. And even if as a province, we used a lot more electricity than we did now, we would still have enough power to supply everyone here, and it would still come 100% from water. Furthermore, our electricity cannot be transported any farther than the border of the United States or the border of Ontario for many reasons. Thus, we are a closed circuit, and our energy consumption doesn’t affect anyone else but us. It is a service we offer to sell our leftover electricity to the people around us; but we don’t owe anyone anything. We’re independent when it comes down to energy. Where do I live? Quebec, Canada, and we, quebecers, just proved your second statement about electricity wrong.


Hmm, now, my opinion on this is rather complex. I don’t trust the government. I think that them, and various companies, bought the rights for many inventions that wouldn’t require us to use oil at all for transportation, in order to keep making profit off oil. I don’t even trust that the global warming we are living right now is the result of our doing. I think that regardless of global warming, it’s important to take care of our planet. I think that the average Joe does not care enough about the environment. I think that taking care of the environment is a good thing, but it is futile until companies and governmental institutions (the biggest wasters) decide to do so aswell. I think that regardless of who we vote for, it is going to be a corrupted government. And I think that the oil wars are not caused because of citizens, but because of power hungry elites.




[edit on 16-8-2007 by Atlantix]

Originally posted by passenger
I suspect that a lot of the people posting on this thread are the Utopian Left, always dreaming about how things could be and never really looking at the way they are.

Utopian left? Why does everybody have to have a direction? Aren't there also people posting here from the dystopian right? Dreaming about how things could be is the first step to making them reality. Asking everybody to give up oil is not what the OP was doing, rather making a philoshophical point I would guess. We ARE all guilty of feeding the machine, but those who dream enough may actually come up with a viable solution to destroy the corrupt machine and replace it with a better one, obviously we can't and won't revert back to cavemen, instead we need to go the other direction and evolve a bit more.

Originally posted by Atlantix
Really? What if I told you that where I live, our electricity comes 100% from water, and that we even sell our leftovers to Ontario and to the United States? I don't see how I am contributing

But I'm sure you drive automobiles, have products made of rubber and plastic, etc. We all contribute our share, it's impossible not to. Perhaps your balls have grown numb like the rest of ours, and you don't realize they have us all by them.

In order for a country to win a major war it needs the support of all is people. For example, the US was successful in World War II because all of its people got behind the war effort. Not only did people from all socio economic groups enlist to fight in the war, but civilians made sacrifices as well. Many civilians gave up consuming various goods for the war effort and many civilian women went to work in factories for the good of the nation.

Granted, our nation's current leadership may have made some poor decisions regarding the war on terrorism and may not be worthy of receiving the nation's support. However, our nation's current and future leaders would have an easier time unraveling all the problems associated with terrorism if the entire American people got behind the war in some way. For example, if everybody cut their fuel consumption, their would be less demand for oil, which in turn would make it easier for future or current US leaders to diplomatically bargain with leaders in oil rich countries. If extra soldiers are needed to help unravel the inevitable messes that are going to occur as a result of everything going on in Iraq, our nation would be aided if the army had a larger recruitment pool and did not just have poor people with nothing better do with themselves enlisting.

Originally posted by 27jd
Asking everybody to give up oil is not what the OP was doing, rather making a philoshophical point I would guess.

Exactly! Thank you.

I thought I made that clear when I said that I would continue to drive and live my life like I always have. I wasnt trying to start a boycott.

obviously we can't and won't revert back to cavemen, instead we need to go the other direction and evolve a bit more.

Right. And we never will so long as we sit on one hand and point fingers at "them" with the other.

BTW, I am not a "she."

[edit on 16-8-2007 by cavscout]

Originally posted by Equinox99
I am from Canada

Thanks! Sorry if I was a little rude, I just can’t stand to see (what I think is) negative type about another nation from someone who doesn’t display their own.

I happen to be from Iraq, I seen the beautiful country it used to be.

I only saw the southern half of your country, I was in Althara and Sadr City, in that Turkish cig. factory, I think it was Sumar Cigarettes.

I am sure that at one point it was beautiful as you say. By the time we arrived in Baghdad the sewers were overflowing onto the street. I know we didn’t ruin Baghdad, at least most of it (we did destroy some buildings). Sadr City (Sadam City on the news sometimes) was a wreck long before we go there. I am sure the Sunni part of town prospered before we got there, and back then (03/04) the disgruntled Sunni population is where most of the combatants came from. In Althara, despite the bombs set by Sunnis, we were more likely to have candy thrown in the street when we showed up as get shot.

I would love to go back someday, this time without a weapon. The people were great. I would rather sit and have a cup of chi with an old Iraqi than most Americans I know. The service in the restaurants was great. I once asked for a diet coke and before I could stop them a runner was sent 1/2 mile to get me one. Edit: just realized that may sound strange that we were "out on the town" in Baghdad. We were escorting civil affairs and they always treated us to lunch at a nice Iraqi place. We loved escorting them, who else can say they ate at the nicest restaurants in Baghdad? They would just set up a nice table for us in the parking lot or on the sidewalk, between our trucks.

The little girls were great. Sweetest kids ever. It seemed like everywhere we went little girls were bringing us food and soda and filling their pockets with American candy and dollars.

The little boys were another story. Not like Western adolescents at all. You could always count on the little Iraqi tough guys to throw a rock at your head when you turned around.

I really did love your country and want to go back some day if the violence ever stops.

I did make a promise to a family over there that I would return someday. If you go South of Baghdad where the large palm tree forests are there is a little town whose name I don’t recall (maybe you know?). We set up a checkpoint there and a car painted white and orange like a cab ran the checkpoint and was charging at my truck, picking up speed. I shot it with the 240B and hit a 7 year old girl in the right side of her chest. I personally treated her for a sucking chest wound with the assistance of our platoon medic and saved her. The little girl was treated at our hospital and then moved to an Iraqi hospital. Later, we visited the family at their farm (they didn’t have any reason to run the checkpoint, BTW, no bombs or weapons, just stupid) and I gave them money and a bunch of propane. They were forgiving and we ate a feast with them. I showed them pictures of my wife and children and they made me promise that when the war was over if I came back I would visit them. I intend to someday.

I still think about that little girl (her name was Hadia) every time I smoke a cigarette, because I used a cellophane cigarette wrapper to seal her sucking chest wound, and because of that I will never quit smoking completely.

It took over a year to be able to be around my own daughters without crying. I look at them and I cant help but see Hadia bleeding in the dirt.

I don’t know why I am telling you all this other than that you are Iraqi and I feel like I owe you an apology for everything, even if you weren’t there when I was and you don’t want to hear my apology.

Asef, and shukran for listening.

I hope we both make it back and see your homeland at peace for once.


[edit on 16-8-2007 by cavscout]

Originally posted by cavscout
BTW, I am not a "she."

Oops. Sorry man, guess the avatar threw me a little, the thing about the gun being an equalizer to males, lol. Many apologies.

That's a moving story, I'm glad you were able to save the little girl. You did what you had to (sure my telling you doesn't mean much, you know already). Thank you (and all other soldiers who may read this) for all you do for us, it's tragic our leaders are such greed driven idiots.

[edit on 17-8-2007 by 27jd]

Originally posted by 27jd

Originally posted by cavscout
BTW, I am not a "she."

Oops. Sorry man, guess the avatar threw me a little, the thing about the gun being an equalizer to males, lol. Many apologies.

No problem. I was trying to say "she is hot, but you cant force yourself on her if she is armed, no mater how strong you are." it is a statement about disarming victims, so I threw the "male" in there hoping I could get the point across without saying "you cant rape her because she will shoot you".

Great, now you have me wondering who else thinks I am woman.

And I am glad I saved Hadia too, I dont think I would be here today had I not.


[edit on 17-8-2007 by cavscout]

Originally posted by cavscout
No problem. I was trying to say "she is hot, but you cant force yourself on her if she is armed, no mater how strong you are." it is a statement about disarming victims, so I threw the "male" in there hoping I could get the point across without saying "you cant rape her because she will shoot you".

Great, now you have me wondering who else thinks I am woman.

Makes sense now, lol. I've seen you post about combat before though, so I kinda wondered because I didn't think they let females serve on the front lines, but wasn't totally sure and didn't want to ask and look like an idiot. Now it's all cleared up.

And I am glad I saved Hadia too, I dont think I would be here today had I not.

I know exactly what you mean, I have a 6 year old son and if I got him badly hurt because I did something stupid like run a check point for no reason, I would be forever in debt to the soldier that saved him because of my mistake. You truly are a hero brother.

Originally posted by 27jd
I didn't think they let females serve on the front lines,

Well they don’t let women into combat arms jobs like mine ( I was a Cavalry Scout, 19D, Armored Reconnaissance Specialist) however that wouldn’t stop them from seeing combat. The Military Police at our camp are a good example. They had women serving as gunners on gun trucks. Usually they had SAWs instead of the heavier 240Bs, 50s, MK-19s, and TOW missiles that we had, but other than that they were gun trucks like ours (fast backed hummers).

You truly are a hero brother.

No, I appreciate that but I am no hero. You gotta remember that I was the one who shot her in the first place. The Lord saved her and me that day. I don’t know if you have ever seen the normal exit wound from a 7.62x51 (.308) round but it can be nasty, too nasty to seal up sucking chest wound. A sucking chest wound is one that punctures the lung. You have to seal up the wound in such a way as to allow the casualty to draw in air yet still allow the lung to drain fluids. This is not easy unless the wound is small. The entry wounds are usually small but the exit wounds can be sorta mangled. On Hadia, the exit wound was manageable. I personally think it was God intervening, however it is likely that she was not "thick" enough to allow the bullet to tumble before exiting. Another thing that can make it difficult to treat this kind of wound is that often the bullet will travel upward in an arch. Again, the bullet just didn’t perform normally with Hadia and the exit wound was near to being perfectly lined up with the entry wound.

The Lord saved Hadia and me that day, I cant take credit. Even if it was my actions that saved her, I hurt her in the first place.

Originally posted by cavscout
Well they don’t let women into combat arms jobs like mine ( I was a Cavalry Scout, 19D, Armored Reconnaissance Specialist) however that wouldn’t stop them from seeing combat.

That's kinda what I figured. When you don't know where the enemy is, it's hard to avoid combat all the time I'm sure.

No, I appreciate that but I am no hero. You gotta remember that I was the one who shot her in the first place.

Well, you were doing your job. I'm sure you've been told that into the ground so I won't run it any further in. I just know in that environment if you hesitate you risk the lives of yourself and your fellow soldiers, you had no choice. What makes you a hero is the fact that you worked so hard to save the girl's life, you didn't aim to hit her I'm sure and it's the fault of the driver entirely. You didn't see them as inhuman enemies and that's why, IMO, youre a hero. You didn't laugh about it like many on here and elsewhere try to paint our soldiers as doing, as being monsters. I know nothing I, or anybody else, say will make you feel better about it, but that's how I see it.

Anyway, sorry to have gone off topic.

Originally posted by cavscout
Every person who reads this is responsible for the oil way in some way. Just logging on and using electricity, regardless of the source, is contributing.

I am so tired of hearing people complain when our governments are doing it all for us.

I am no saint. I live 50.2 miles from work, one way. I make that trip 6 days a week in my 4,500lb. SUV usually alone.

They do these things for me. They do them for you too.

I am responsible. You are responsible too.

They do it so we can drive instead of walk. They do it so we can cook on a stove instead of over a fire.

They do it for us. Every time we get into a car, bus, or train we ask them to.

I keep my guilt with me; the blood stays on my hand. I don’t blame "them" so I can sleep better at night.

So it is up to you. What are you going to do to change it? Probably nothing so long as no one blames you directly, so long as you can come on ATS and wash your hands by blaming "them".

Just don’t ever forget that they do it because you ask them to.

I suppose we should all parade through the streets flogging ourselves? Its no different from those people who used to punish themselves for "causing" the plague. You like many others are similar to the modern day inquisition.

This is out of our control and theres nothing that you, me or anyone who is not extremely high up can do anything about it until the gradual cross-over to more friendly alternatives come about.

I suppose i should wear a hair shirt? I agree with what you are saying but to suggest that we have a choice about it is ridiculous, unless poverty is a good thing.

Originally posted by Dr Love
passenger

I'm really not arguing against what you say, the fact is nothing short of a revolution to overthrow corporate government is going to save us. Are we currently FUBAR and most likely in the future FUBAR, absolutely, but my argument was hypothetical and utopian in nature. Yes, we've made this bed and now we have to lay in it.

Peace

Agreed

Sorry, stupid and infuriating thread. You need to start living in the real world.

TruthWithin certainly won this argument.

[edit on 22-8-2007 by dodgygeeza]

Originally posted by dodgygeeza
I agree with what you are saying but to suggest that we have a choice about it is ridiculous, unless poverty is a good thing.

You just told me all I need to know right there. You wont change because you dont want to be poor. Thanks for helping me out here.

Sorry, stupid and infuriating thread. You need to start living in the real world.

Stupid? Infuriating? I need to live in the real world?

Let me tell you something about the real there kido, I have seen first hand what the real world is. I went to a war and fought it for you, because you asked them to send me and I agreed. Ive killed more people than you have copulated with, I would guess. Dont tell me I need to live in the real world, I live in the damn real world all day long and then when I sleep. What do you know of war, of the real world?

My father first joined the military in Vietnam when he was 17 and is in Iraq right now. He has killed and bled for his country and the idiots who just want more so they dont have to feel poor but dont want to take responsibility for it. THATS THE REAL WORLD!

I went to Iraq, killed people, saw Americans killed, saw things so bad that to this day I still have trouble sleeping and functioning, so that your life didnt have to be interrupted. THATS THE REAL WORLD.

Two of my brothers are in Iraq right now, fighting for American rights to drive Escalades and Suburbans and live 70 miles from work. THATS THE REAL WORLD.

My mother cries every day and is on medication because she knows the odds of her not loosing someone to your oil war are slim. THAT’S THE REAL WORLD.

Hundreds of thousands of Iraqis have been killed since the start of the war, so that we could remove a dictator who had not killed half as many. THAT’S THE REAL WORLD.

Your gas is so cheap because American soldiers are killing right now to keep the oil flowing. THAT’S THE REAL WORLD.

Don’t tell me I need to live in the real world until you have seen the worst of that real world. Go kick a child molester to death and see how you feel about yourself and then we can talk about the real world. Go shoot a child and leave her permanently disabled and see how you feel about yourself and the men who asked you to do it and then we can talk about the real world. How bout you go to Iraq and kill a few Iraqi patriots to save your own hide and see how you feel about the real world, then we can talk.

You can take the world YOU live and stick it somewhere dark and smelly.

TruthWithin certainly won this argument.

How juvenile is that? This is not a debate forum, it is a discussion forum. I was trying start dialogue that would create positive mindsets to sponsor peace (I obviously failed) not start arguments.

To everyone: If your conscious was pierced enough that you had turn on defense mechanisms when reading my OP then maybe you should re-think the possible hypocrisies in your life.


[edit on 22-8-2007 by cavscout]

Originally posted by cavscout
Your gas is so cheap because American soldiers are killing right now to keep the oil flowing. THAT’S THE REAL WORLD.

To everyone: If your conscious was pierced enough that you had turn on defense mechanisms when reading my OP then maybe you should re-think the possible hypocrisies in your life.
[edit on 22-8-2007 by cavscout]

That's the point. Maybe not everyone faces the facts. But I do. I accept the fact that I benefit from the flow of oil and I honor those that keep it flowing.
Selfish? YES
Self-compelled interest? YES
Am I a hypocrite? NO
Reason: Because I accept the reality of this world. I know I derive benefits from the plundering of unfortunates below me on the food chain. I accept it for what it is dude - some win, some lose. We can't all be princes.
Smug? YES
Arrogant? YES
But, by favor or fortune, I'm one of the lucky few on top. And I accept it.
You can't seem to accept this Cavscout. Face it, you are (were) a centurion. You were sent to enforce the desires of the empire and provide for the needs of it's citizens. You may feel guilt about it but I don't. Take pride in it or take shame, but that's the way it is.

Originally posted by thedigirati
I'm sorry but the premise for this thread is flawed from the start, you DO NOT NEED PETROLEUM products at all.

This is why I dont feel guilty. This war in the middle east is just another war of a long string of 'em, rather like an epic saga that started well before we were born. So why should I feel guilt for something that is happening beyond my control and unnecessary in the first place?

I feel sad and helpless but not guilt. There is no blood on my hands, shackles yeah but I didnt put them there and nor did you.

On the brightside, give it 10/20 years and there will be riots against capitalism as more and more people get let down by its rampant greedy ways. Laws will be made and modified to rein in the destructive force that is keeping us sick and dependant. But first you gotta get rid of the banks though, make 'em non-profit... but then I digress...

Originally posted by passenger
That's the point. Maybe not everyone faces the facts. But I do. I accept the fact that I benefit from the flow of oil and I honor those that keep it flowing.
Selfish? YES
Self-compelled interest? YES
Am I a hypocrite? NO

Yes, you get it.

So long as you don’t complain about the war like it belongs to someone else, you aren’t a hypocrite.

I wish you didn’t think it was justified, but then that is my opinion. At least you are true to yourself about it.

You can't seem to accept this Cavscout. Face it, you are (were) a centurion. You were sent to enforce the desires of the empire and provide for the needs of it's citizens. You may feel guilt about it but I don't. Take pride in it or take shame, but that's the way it is.

No, I do accept it. I did what I did. That is between me and my creator, and something I deal with ever day and night.

What I want is for more to people to understand what they are doing, like you do. I can’t make you feel guilt about it, but maybe I can make others feel guilt about it, and not to shame them but in hopes of changing their habits and thoughts.

You may disagree on the justification of war because you don’t want your life to be disrupted, but at least you own up to your part of it.

And I must say that although I applaud your for your honesty and your truthfulness is noble (for what is more important than honesty?) I am still saddened by the depths of inhumanity that humanity has reached as evidenced by your beliefs about the just cause of war.