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Learn from the fall of Rome, US warned

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posted on Aug, 14 2007 @ 03:19 PM
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A really good read on Rome and the Visogoths and Ostrogoths, and Rome's subsuquent downfall is Raptor by Gary Jennings. Set at the end of Rome's days it tells us much of the Barbarians. After reading this I wondered who truly I consider a Barbarian.

"If they speak what is false, they are pernicious. If they speak what is truth, they are unnecessary. Silence them." Emperor Justinian - Rome AD 529

"Mortal, it was you yourself who cast your lot not with Security but with Fortune. Never rejoice overmuch when she leads you to great victories; never repine when she leads you into sad adversity. Remember, mortal, if Fortune ever should stand still, she is no longer Fortune." Boethius AD 524




posted on Aug, 14 2007 @ 03:46 PM
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Originally posted by nixie_nox
Someone has come out with a novel recently about the correlations between the US and Rome. I heard an interview on it and it is eerily similar. Same thing, that we are .ed for trouble. Rome basically fell from power hungry in-fighting among leaders. Sound familiar?


As a person who writes in this...genre...I'd just like to mention that I've been collecting fiction that depicts the fall of America for the last 25 years. I have this wild idea for Master's thesis. Parallels between the United States and Rome have been observed by many authors in one form or another for the last 60-70 years.

The simple fact of the matter is that while these correlations can be sexy, especially when mixed with good story lines, certain forms of corruption are unversal. Each generation would be wise to heed the warnings that speak of government corruption, no matter where you live. In the same way that corruption is unversal, vigilance must be eternal. It's easy to argue the point that the U.S. is NOT Rome, but that's not the real point.

The danger of corruption is the point. Good citizenship requries us to be forever on our guard against the dark forces, no matter what nation we live or what form of government we prefer. When writers package their warnings in contemporary clothes, they are carrying on that tradition of vigilance that so many of us take for granted. We ignore these warning out our own peril. If we fail, future generations will know who to blame.



posted on Aug, 14 2007 @ 04:01 PM
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Originally posted by rezial666
"If they speak what is false, they are pernicious. If they speak what is truth, they are unnecessary. Silence them." Emperor Justinian - Rome AD 529


Hope the dates in this quote are not indicative of the scholarship in the rest of the book. The emperor Justinian would have been in his capital of Constantinople in AD 529. And as this quote from Wikipedia shows, would not (or could not) have travelled to Rome until it was reconquered (from the barbarians) in AD 536.


War in Italy, first phase, 535–540 Main article: Gothic War (535–554)
As in Africa, dynastic struggles in Ostrogothic Italy provided an opportunity for intervention. The young king Athalaric had died on 2 October 534, and a usurper, Theodahad, had imprisoned queen Amalasuntha, Theodoric's daughter and mother of Athalaric, on an island in Lake Bolsena, where he had her assassinated in 535. Thereupon Belisarius invaded Sicily (535) and advanced into Italy, sacking Naples and capturing Rome on 9 December 536. By that time Theodahad had been deposed by the Ostrogothic army, who had elected Vitigis as their new king. He gathered a large army and besieged Rome from February 537 to March 538 without being able to retake the city. Justinian sent another general, Narses, to Italy, but tensions between Narses and Belisarius hampered the progress of the campaign. Milan was taken, but was soon recaptured and razed by the Ostrogoths. Justinian recalled Narses in 539. By then the military situation had turned in favour of the Romans, and in 540 Belisarius reached the Ostrogothic capital Ravenna. There he was offered the title of Western Roman Emperor by the Ostrogoths at the same time that envoys of Justinian were arriving to negotiate a peace which would leave the region north of the river Po in Gothic hands. Belisarius feigned to accept the offer, entered the city in May 540, and reclaimed it for the Empire.[21] Then, having been recalled by Justinian, Belisarius returned to Constantinople, taking the captured Vitigis and his wife Matasuentha with him.


Article



posted on Aug, 14 2007 @ 04:02 PM
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Well, my 3 predicted possible paths are as follows:

1. The United States crumbles and civil war breaks out between regions. This would be most likely in today's U.S for there are not only differences between two major parties but sub-parties within the parties. The populace also leans toward specific groups within the parties now. Using the voting statistics you can see that the regions for the specific groups are all very "grouped". Divided we fall. I think if this were to happen, you'd see the formation of anywhere from 3 to 5 potential countries where the U.S lies today. You might even find Mexican territory along the borders that was never there before this possible civil war.

2. The establishment of a new United States. President Bush brought in the act that allows for any of our future presidents to take over as a dictator with "due cause". If Bush doesn't do it, who knows? I don't know what will happen if this goes down. The general populace is very keen on allowing anything to go by, as long as they stay ignorant. That's the only way people feel safe. Knowledge is burden. Hopefully if this possibility happens there will be those that revolt and fight back.

3. There's a dramatic overhaul in the way media & politics work. You wouldn't even have to overhaul them, you'd have to just use what you've got to begin with. The founding fathers gave us a nation that gives as the opportunity to create the greatest nation on the face of the planet. We failed them, terribly. We would have to elect a president that is not only anti-administration (in its current form) but anti-government! It's time we have a leader with a revolutionary mind and idealogy. We've steered very far away from the original intentions of those that created this country.

I highly doubt any of this would lead into a doomsday scenario. The world is still a very large place. We here in the U.S (thankfully) are not the center of the world. I predict we'll see China & Russia unite in a strange way to become the next few decades super power along with the E.U. Remember, if China pulls out of our market, we're done.

I could get into topic #3 in great detail, but, I don't have the time right now to write it all up.



posted on Aug, 14 2007 @ 04:21 PM
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Originally posted by djohnsto77
If the U.S. is Rome, then who are the barbarians?


barbarians=terrorists?

I love your avatar by the way!



posted on Aug, 14 2007 @ 04:22 PM
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Originally posted by centurion1211

Originally posted by rezial666
"If they speak what is false, they are pernicious. If they speak what is truth, they are unnecessary. Silence them." Emperor Justinian - Rome AD 529


Hope the dates in this quote are not indicative of the scholarship in the rest of the book. The emperor Justinian would have been in his capital of Constantinople in AD 529. And as this quote from Wikipedia shows, would not (or could not) have travelled to Rome until it was reconquered (from the barbarians) in AD 536.


You are correct - the book states "the newly co-regnant Emperor Justinaian, most Christian of nobles at Constantinople..."

Forgive me...



posted on Aug, 14 2007 @ 04:29 PM
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Originally posted by nixie_nox
Someone has come out with a novel recently about the correlations between the US and Rome. I heard an interview on it and it is eerily similar. Same thing, that we are .ed for trouble. Rome basically fell from power hungry in-fighting among leaders. Sound familiar?


You might be referring to Chalmers Johnson?
www.buzzflash.com...

Anyways a "novel" is fiction, the American Empire is not.



posted on Aug, 14 2007 @ 07:40 PM
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There is a saying that America gets what it deserves. I think that's pretty much right on. One of the reasons cited for our fall is declining moral values.
Well, when you have certain people who have the "Don't preach your morality to me" attitude and these people feel that nothing they do is "wrong" then what is there to do?
We all have the right to believe what we want to believe. I believe this, you believe that, he believes something else, and she believes the other way. This is what we are guaranteed by the Constitution.
I believe that the Constitution has been decimated by too liberal interpretations of what the Founding Fathers intended.
Do we REALLY think that Freedom of Expression had pornography in mind? Apparantly it did. Imagine that!
We have made laws that make what is (in my opinion) immoral, legal.
I hope we were nice to our neighbors on our way up.
I don't know what the answer to our situation is at this point.
Complete Government reform?
(sarcasm) I'd like to see someone implement THAT.
We are surely going to meet them on our way down.



posted on Aug, 14 2007 @ 09:12 PM
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I hope we were nice to our neighbors on our way up.
...
We are surely going to meet them on our way down.


Building a wall with Mexico, ensuring much of their economy never touches the US...
Completley disobeying Nafta rules with Canada, placing heavy tarrifs on goods crossing the border and getting pissy when Canada tries to do the same to the US...

Yeah. You had better hope the US's neighbors have more compassion than the US has shown. Otherwise, you can expect Mexico and Canada to flat out refuse US citizens from crossing the border once the economy collapses, and cutting off the US economy from the rest of the world to ensure their dollar never gets out of their own bankrupt borders.

Luckily, both countries are quite compassionate. Perhaps when the crap has finished hitting the fan, the US can learn something from it.



posted on Aug, 14 2007 @ 10:36 PM
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Originally posted by gottago
Enter Nero, playing air guitar.




Also, let's not forget our crumbling infrastructure.

[edit on 14-8-2007 by gottago]


Hehe Nero, he used to burn down a complete part of the city for building his own palace[while looking at the burned city he played the guitar and sang a song about it
]nowadays we burn cd's with that name

Maybe there are more correlations between Bush and Augustus?..After all, the similarities would really be striking if Bush implements martial law and so the republic becomes an empire..
Funny how star wars part 3 showed these same correlations..
I believe the Hispanics are going to be the main dominant culture[in lots of states] in the future but still i dont believe they're going to tear the empire down..
The US should be carefull though with smuggling activities going on across the Mexican border done by people as Adnan G. El Shukrijumah. NWO or inside jobs or not, imo those terrorist are still the true barbarians, or like someone noticed:"the Orcs from middle eart"



posted on Aug, 14 2007 @ 11:55 PM
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Doesn't take a rocket scientist to know this... Oh wait.



posted on Aug, 15 2007 @ 02:50 AM
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Call me crazy, but I think the elites are destroying this country on purpose.



posted on Aug, 15 2007 @ 03:53 AM
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Originally posted by QuickSilver_2005GT
Do we REALLY think that Freedom of Expression had pornography in mind? Apparantly it did. Imagine that!


If you don't want tyranny then the doctrine of "freedom of expression" makes for a pretty good safeguard. It's vague on purpose because no one knew what future generations would be up against, and so rather than limiting speech and the press, the forefathers left the interpretation wide open. So you may not like pornography but it doesn't mean that you have to attach yourself to the issue of pornography. You are free to disregard it. Freedom means that you get to choose what issues you want to take up and those that you do not. Every time you bind yourself to an issue you limit your freedom to some extent, but you also exercise your freedom by choosing which issue to be bound to. The Constitution and laws currently seem to support pornography as a means of expression. It's for adults, and adults should be free to make up their own minds about what they wish to be involved with. And that is what I think the 1st Amendment of the Constitution protects. It allows adults freedom to choose. So it's not really a question of what you or I think is right for others, the 1st Amendment protects what you or I think is right for our individual selves, and whether other persons agree with your or I is up to them. And so if folks want to make a living photographing and filiming sex, and folks want to enjoy being entertained by the products that the sex industry produces, then that's okay. You and I do not have to buy into it. You know, scientists sell their minds every day. So do lawyers. So do doctors. So do teachers. Hard laborers sell their brawn. Military and and other security forces such as the local police put their lives on the line everyday. Every person sells their time or is looking for a way to sell their time. When you put things into perspective pornography doesn't seem too bad of a way to make a living. Those who make porn are just having sex and making it available to those interested in seeing it. Of course there are moral considerations, but if it's okay for someone to sell their minds to build weapons that are capable of wiping most people off of the face of the planet Earth, then it should be okay for someone to make a living showing people how to have fun putting people back on the planet Earth.

My personal opinion is that I think it's dangerous for people to want and have the ability to control what other people do with their lives. Because of the hierarchical nature of our system it is especially dangerous because folks cast their votes on political candidates who play to voters personal interests and that is a problem, because it also means that politicians become likely to accept donations for advancing corporate special interests. The forefathers were unbelievably brilliant men. They tried through the Constitution to take care of the matter of personal and special interests for individual persons and corporations, leaving one matter to be resolved through votes. The matter that continually needs resolving is the matter of common interests and the forefathers of the United States of America felt it necessary and urgent to make the distinction between individual personal and corporate interests and the interests common to each and every person born in this country. The government of the United States is struggling because it is under the weight of personal and special interests when it was designed to address issues of common interest.

[edit on 15-8-2007 by Areal51]



posted on Aug, 15 2007 @ 03:58 AM
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The downfall is not a question of IF, but when. Its just history running its course, every power-hungry, greed infested government will pick itself apart causing a nation to implode on itself.

Just be ready for it, us few will be the ones picking up the peices of a tarnished and broken nation.


Not to mention, if the NAU merges into one country, we LOSE our constitution. not like it means much nowadays, i bet thomas jefferson and james madison are rolling over in their graves right now. And income tax. Completely unconstitutional. a sham. there is no local, state or federal law requiring us to pay it. basically, four months out of the year you work is slavery. Anyone ever check the 13th and 14th ammendments in the constitution?

God save us all.



posted on Aug, 15 2007 @ 04:40 AM
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Originally posted by Schaden
Call me crazy, but I think the elites are destroying this country on purpose.


I wont call you crazy, you may very well be right in your assumption if it is based on the Rothchilds & Rockerfellers.


EXTENT OF ROTHSCHILD POWER

According to one source "it was estimated that they controlled half the wealth of the world."(


could someone with this kind of power cause a nation to fall in accordance to thier pre-arranged plan??

Not that I would seek to shift the blame off of our own shoulders as a nation, we surely could have done more to guard ourselves, but we have been inundated by such destructive ideaologies through foundations and institutions built by these elites that it's hard not to see that we have been pawns all along, I bet Nathan M. Rothschild & Sons of London could trace their own roots all the way back to Rome. because they act just as the emperor's of Rome did. I'm not saying they came from Rome, I suspect they have, I just haven't researched it enough to know.

Is it a conspiracy?? I think so, is it a tragedy?? not yet, but it's .ing that way. We certainly need to pull together as a nation if we are to survive, united we stand, divided we fall, plain and simple.

Anyone wanting to read up on the Rothchilds can do so here......

whisleblower.googlepages.com...



posted on Aug, 15 2007 @ 06:36 AM
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PLEEZZZZE!!! Study your history. We need no elite plotting our demise (they more than anyone else know which side the bread is buttered on and have a vested interest in continuity) or anything else like that to cause our fall. Civilizations fall for two reasons.... the fail because they have depleted their resources or because they cease to inspire. In short part of the reason a civilization falls in physical and part is spiritual.

No cultural form is permanent. Even the ancient Egyptian civilization which is the longest lasting we know about, 3000 + years finally wore out and ceased to inspire and motivate and ultimately, that led to its demise. The Chinese and Hindu remain because both are almost infinitely flexible within their cultural patterns and continue to adapt.

When a civilization and its founding myths and ideals cease to inspire, that civilization begins to die. It happened to Egypt and it happened to Rome. The barbarians only had to push and the whole facade crumbled.

The other reason, depletion of resources has also been a major fall of a civilization's collapse... the Maya being the classic example; and that, in the long run is our biggest threat, not terrorists or anything like that.

The depletion of resources, and a failure to address the fiscal and social crises looming on our horizon will do us in yet.

[edit on 15-8-2007 by grover]



posted on Aug, 15 2007 @ 09:59 AM
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Source Material:


Transforming
Government to Meet
the Demands of the
21st Century
The Federal Midwest Human Resources Council
and the Chicago Federal Executive Board
Chicago, Illinois
August 7, 2007



From Page 2

PDF: Long-range simulations from my agency are chilling.

www.gao.gov...

I am,

Sri Oracle



posted on Aug, 15 2007 @ 10:11 AM
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From report:



Long-range simulations from my agency are chilling.
[]
Importantly, our nation’s financial problems are undermining our flexibility to address a range of
emerging challenges.
[]
By 2040 our government could be doing little more than sending out Social Security checks and paying interest on our massive national debt.
[]
Another ominous trend: American companies are cutting back the retirement benefits they’re
offering to workers
[]
Clearly, U.S. consumers have reaped many benefits from globalization. But there’s a catch. In many cases, lower prices have been accompanied by losses in U.S. jobs.
[]
TR firmly believed that it was every American’s responsibility to be active in our civic life, and so do I. Democracy is hard work but it’s work worth doing. And that’s really at the heart of my message this morning. How America looks in the future is largely up to us. “We the people” are ultimately responsible for what does or does not happen in Washington.
[]
But leadership can’t just come from Capitol Hill or the White House. Leadership also needs to come from Main Street. It’s time for the three most powerful words in our Constitution—“We the people”—to come alive.


I am,

Sri Oracle



posted on Aug, 15 2007 @ 10:21 AM
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U.S. Financial Condition and Fiscal Future Briefing, American Accounting Association, Chicago, Illinois, August 7, 2007, GAO-07-1189CG


PDF:

www.gao.gov...

Mostly charts and graphs... and the statements:



The federal government is on a “burning platform”

Current Fiscal Policy Is Unsustainable
The “Status Quo” Is Not an Option
We face large and growing structural deficits

Closing the current long-term fiscal gap based on reasonable assumptions would require real average annual economic growth in the double-digit range every year for the next 75 years.

• During the 1990s, the economy grew at an average 3.2 percent
per year.
• As a result, we cannot simply grow our way out of this problem.
Tough choices will be required.

Burden
Per person...............................................$170,000
Per household..........................................$440,000

Median (annual) household income..................$46,326


edit for:

Fiscal Wake Up Tour

Next Event.... September 11th, 2007 Los Angeles Town Hall.

I am,

Sri Oracle

[edit on 15-8-2007 by Sri Oracle]



posted on Aug, 15 2007 @ 12:30 PM
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Originally posted by WyrdeOne
nixie_nox
I think that's an oversimplification of the fall of Rome. We can safely say that it was the result of a combination of factors - and not the least of which was the apathy, gullibility, and base nature of the common people.

As a whole, I think it would be difficult for this country to more closely resemble Rome, we're pretty close to a perfect match.




I was putting it in a nutshell. I heard a discussion about the book and the resemblances were almost creepy.Just my poor little tired brain right now can't recall it.

Though I really have never thought of us as an empire. It really sounds egotistical. Does anyone actually think of the US as an empire?



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