The legend of Medusa the Gorgon and Tlaltecuhtli the Aztec earth goddess originated from the same so

I decided to add this...

I don't want to sound like I'm being completely dismissive. I think you've found some fascinating things (I never knew Athena was derived from an older snake goddess!)

What I do dismiss is the work of "oh! look! this looks like THAT and therefore these guys borrowed this from this culture!" By that kind of standard, you can say that Perrault based his Puss In Boots off the Egyptian Goddess Bast and that Puss and Bast are one in the same.

Hammering the Greek culture onto the Mesoamerican ones is the same old Colonial brutality that they've been fighting forever... the conquerers coming in and telling them what their art and writing means -- making the people themselves unimportant.

I do think you've got a great topic with a lot of things to explore:
* what were the roles of women in society in each culture at the time these images were created? How are they the same and how are they different?
* what religious structure supported the goddesses? What were the worship practices of adherents and priests?
* were the goddesses images of the way women in the society behaved or were they role-model breakers? What was their place (and behavior) as gods among the male gods?
* what's the history of these goddesses... what older forms do they come from and what older or later cultures do they impact? How are those forms viewed in relation to the roles of women in those societies?
* what mythic themas and images are shown in each of these goddesses' depictions? how do they reflect the society that created them?

So many good questions, and they can be a wonderful "compare and contrast" that teaches more about the images and the writings and the society that forms them.

But you can only link societies and images if:
* there's places where the two cultures interacted and we find material from both cultures
* we find groups of linguistic "Creoles" -- sublanguages that are completely made up of both languages (the "Tex-Mex 'Spanglish'" is a wonderful example of this. It's not quite Spanish but it's not really English.)
* we find an exchange of goods and art and music exchanging in the cultures.
* there's genetic evidence linking them.

I contemplated starting a new thread on the mystery behind the legend of Athena after I started this thread. It seems there is more history to learn on Athena than to find out why the Gorgon and Tlaltechtli are similar.

By the way, I was pushing for a more ancient America that helped inspire the Greek legends, through other transitionary cultures such as those in northern Africa.

Let's say some sort of Olmec relative influenced Africa and they had the ability to traverse the Atlantic in their day. The Olmec period ranges from 900 B.C. to 400 B.C. I've read on the Wikipedia article that the Olmec may have originally invented the compass. Their stories may have passed onto the cultures of Europe, through Africa. I know there is no solid evidence, but I say they deserve the credit.

en.wikipedia.org...
"the Olmec may have discovered and used the geomagnetic lodestone compass earlier than 1000 BC." -John Carlson

Just for kicks, I wanted to add this bas-relief found at Chalcatzingo, Mexico. This area is a Preclassic site where the Olmecs are given credit for the work.


Monument 5 at Chalcatzingo
www.latinamericanstudies.org...

What was this serpent guarding? Probably not Golden Apples or even a Golden Fleece, maybe something more valuable.

There's still no proof of a connection but we're still free to compare cultural similiarities.

Sorry for getting off topic but exactly does this other relief show?

www.latinamericanstudies.org...

I can see rain clouds, maybe rain drops? Lighting, but why does it look like the guy is in a capsule or ship flying through the air? Or is it just me?

Originally posted by lostinspace
I contemplated starting a new thread on the mystery behind the legend of Athena after I started this thread. It seems there is more history to learn on Athena than to find out why the Gorgon and Tlaltechtli are similar.

No kidding! I thought I was fairly well versed in the Greek literature and history, but I found myself amazed at all the new stuff there was.

By the way, I was pushing for a more ancient America that helped inspire the Greek legends, through other transitionary cultures such as those in northern Africa.

How old do you think the cultures in America are? I know what the evidences are, but I'm wondering what date you are using.

Let's say some sort of Olmec relative influenced Africa and they had the ability to traverse the Atlantic in their day. The Olmec period ranges from 900 B.C. to 400 B.C. I've read on the Wikipedia article that the Olmec may have originally invented the compass. Their stories may have passed onto the cultures of Europe, through Africa. I know there is no solid evidence, but I say they deserve the credit.

This was during the literate period of many civilizations including Egypt. To make this a starting point, you have to show that plants and animals available in the New World show up in the Old World at that time... and vice-versa. You also have to show that there's many bits of pottery that each import from the other and valuable goods being exchanged like shells and colorful feathers.

In examining myths and legends and religious tales (as I'm doing for a paper), you have to know what tale you're looking at, what the variants are, and what tale crops up when. For example, we know that the tale of Noah's flood is the youngest version of an older story in the Epic of Gilgamesh (phrases and concepts are similar and the story has the same flow) and both are versions of a still earlier tale (the details, and again matching phrases and concepts even though the languages are different.

Just for kicks, I wanted to add this bas-relief found at Chalcatzingo, Mexico. This area is a Preclassic site where the Olmecs are given credit for the work.

In order to prove a connection, you can't cherry pick material. You must include everything. And you should also look at the translations of the words on the images to confirm what is being depicted there.

What was this serpent guarding? Probably not Golden Apples or even a Golden Fleece, maybe something more valuable.

It needs to be considered in the framework of the whole site... and we see the serpent motive elsewhere in the site. It's identified as "Cave Monster" and has a specific association with the caves. It may be an aspect of the Underworld -- as in Pacal's tomb lid where he's shown falling down the World Tree into the jaws of the Monster Below (which looks awfully snaky):
www.mesoweb.com...

There was serpent worship in Mesoamerica, but you'll have more luck connecting it to Quetzalcoatl (a truly ancient god, though Tlaloc is even more ancient.) Images of Quetzalcoatl (under different nams) go back to at least 5000 BC in America.

Originally posted by PontiacWarrior
Sorry for getting off topic but exactly does this other relief show?

www.latinamericanstudies.org...

I can see rain clouds, maybe rain drops? Lighting, but why does it look like the guy is in a capsule or ship flying through the air? Or is it just me?

I believe that's the mouth of the "Cauc Monster". Will have to doublecheck since there are a number of frauds around (Von Danniken had drawings prepared that showed only part of a panel so he could talk about space ships and aliens and not have to explain why the text on the panel said something about the death of a chieftain.)

Originally posted by lostinspace
Just for kicks, I wanted to add this bas-relief found at Chalcatzingo, Mexico. This area is a Preclassic site where the Olmecs are given credit for the work.


Monument 5 at Chalcatzingo
www.latinamericanstudies.org...

What was this serpent guarding? Probably not Golden Apples or even a Golden Fleece, maybe something more valuable.

There's still no proof of a connection but we're still free to compare cultural similiarities.

Maybe it's guarding the secret plans to build a line of cars in order to make money so he can subjigate the world under a reptillian new world order? The serpent, or biscione, appears to be swallowing a human, but is actually giving birth to it. Birth to a race of reptillian overlords? Yes. Yes it is.

Great connection there ViolatoR!

I wonder where that family saw the symbol first? Where did Romans pick it up?

It appears that the Olmec serpent has a horn, where ears might be located on other animals, besides snakes. This gives the mythical dragon look. I find it fascinating that the Biscione serpent has a human ear or form of horn also.

I really wonder if this proves that there was once a connection between Europe and the Americas before the usual date. Maybe there was a civilization of the same cult. -The Man Eating Dragon Cult.


Check out these details about the Phoenician lunar goddess Tanit.

en.wikipedia.org...

“a consumer of blood and flesh”
“…child sacrifice forming part of Tanit’s worship.”
“In Egyptian, her name means Land of Neith, Neith being a war goddess.”

And Athena is known as the war goddess.

I've seen one photo of a statue of Tanit where her face is like a lion's and her extended neck has the scales of a serpent. She is wearing a long flowing dress and her left hand is holding some sort of instrument over her belly. I'm trying to locate the image from the net.

And then there is the related goddess Anat.

en.wikipedia.org...

In Urgarit, Anath was known as a violent war-goddess.
We're seeing the common character of a female warrior and a virgin.

The wikipedia article says this about Anat in Mesopotamia:

"It has also been suggested that the parallelism between the names of the Sumerian goddess, Inanna, and her West Semitic counterpart, Ishtar, continued in Canaanite tradition as Anath and Astarte, particularly in the poetry of Ugarit. The two goddesses were invariably linked in Ugaritic scripture and are also known to have formed a triad with a third goddess whose was given the title of Qadesh."

Reminds you of the three Gorgons and Athene is included among them.

i haven't read much of the thread but i will do some research on this. i have been very interested with both cultures since i was a kid and i'm surprised i never noticed that

Originally posted by lostinspace
Check out these details about the Phoenician lunar goddess Tanit.
“a consumer of blood and flesh”
“…child sacrifice forming part of Tanit’s worship.”
“In Egyptian, her name means Land of Neith, Neith being a war goddess.”

And then there is the related goddess Anat.
en.wikipedia.org...
In Urgarit, Anath was known as a violent war-goddess.
We're seeing the common character of a female warrior and a virgin.

The wikipedia article says this about Anat in Mesopotamia:
"... The two goddesses were invariably linked in Ugaritic scripture and are also known to have formed a triad with a third goddess whose was given the title of Qadesh."

Reminds you of the three Gorgons and Athene is included among them.

Hmm interesting stuff. Three is an important number to the goddess, who is usually associated with the moon. The moon makes 12 and 1/3 lunations (lunar months) a year. So it makes a complete number of lunations every three years (37 lunations). The moon also has 3 phases: waxing, full and waning; a symbol of the "triple goddess." And I think the horn could be symbol of female power. Horns come from cows which represent the goddess, and if you hold it up to the sky a horn looks like a crescent moon. It could be a conicopia of plenty. The goddess being necessary for fertility of humans and plants/animals or food.

And then for some reason the loving virgin mother goddess is also a force of destruction and war. Like the destructive goddess Kali who's sticking out her tounge in a picture I've got. (A symbol of warding off evil, or showing you're not evil/demon) So the goddess of war & death uses a symbol of warding off evil...hmm.. I dont know if it's a simple as saying that nature is violent with it's beasts and bad weather.. a symbol of the cyclical nature of things life/death, day/night.. ? Perhaps this theme has survived for a couple thousand years with the modern day mothers who often say "I brought you into this world and I can take you out of it!"

P.S. Anyone else think Frida Kahlo looks like Medusa?

And then for some reason the loving virgin mother goddess is also a force of destruction and war. Like the destructive goddess Kali who's sticking out her tounge in a picture I've got. (A symbol of warding off evil, or showing you're not evil/demon) So the goddess of war & death uses a symbol of warding off evil...hmm.. I dont know if it's a simple as saying that nature is violent with it's beasts and bad weather.. a symbol of the cyclical nature of things life/death, day/night.. ? Perhaps this theme has survived for a couple thousand years with the modern day mothers who often say "I brought you into this world and I can take you out of it!"

Now I am beginning to wonder if Kali and Calypso (Kalipso) are one in the same. Calypso was a Naiad and a daugher of Atlas. She is also listed as one of the 50 Nereids who are said to help direct sailors during terrible storms. I could not find a Greek myth that said she was sea goddess who brought upon violent storms at sea. It was the movie "Pirates of the Carribbean: At World's End" that made that connection. This is the Calypso of the movie: Calypso

The Nahutal word "Izcalli" comes to mind. Which stands for the "House of Re-Awakening."

California has some interesting history regarding its name and there are several theories as to its origin. I took note of this detail:


"In the minds of European explorers, an island populated by Amazons off the coast of the Indies was a long-established expectation. The earliest known application of the name "California" to this island of the Amazons was in the 1510 romance novel Las Sergas de Esplandián (The Adventures of Esplandián) by Spanish author García Ordóñez de Montalvo. The book described the Island of California as being east of the Asian mainland, "very close to the side of the Terrestrial Paradise; and it is peopled by black women, without any man among them, for they live in the manner of Amazons." The Island was ruled by Queen Califia. In his work, the author drew on a long-standing European belief in such an island."
en.wikipedia.org...

Originally posted by ViolatoR The serpent, or biscione, appears to be swallowing a human, but is actually giving birth to it. Birth to a race of reptillian overlords? Yes. Yes it is.

How do you make that connection?

Nothing that the people wrote or drew refers to reptilian overlords or a reptilian race.

Originally posted by lostinspaceNow I am beginning to wonder if Kali and Calypso (Kalipso) are one in the same.

Why would you make that connection? And why would you base any attempted scholarship on a fictional movie?

Have you read any of the Greek material on Calypso yet? There's a lot of references.

And have you read about Kali yet and her position in the gods and society? There's a ton of reading material there.

Calypso was a Naiad and a daugher of Atlas. She is also listed as one of the 50 Nereids who are said to help direct sailors during terrible storms. I could not find a Greek myth that said she was sea goddess who brought upon violent storms at sea.

That's correct. She isn't. In fact, only Poseidon brought the storms.

Originally posted by Byrd

Originally posted by ViolatoR The serpent, or biscione, appears to be swallowing a human, but is actually giving birth to it. Birth to a race of reptillian overlords? Yes. Yes it is.

How do you make that connection?

Nothing that the people wrote or drew refers to reptilian overlords or a reptilian race.

Heehee, I guess I'll have to put "I'm joking" in parenthesis from now on?
en.wikipedia.org...

After leaving the island of Ogygia, the home of the sea-nymph Calypso, Odysseus shipwreks in the land of Scheria. This far off land is the home of the Phaeacians or Phaiakians. These people had an abundance of wealth and no enemy ever approached their shores. Their gift was naval navigation and their ships went the velocity of birds.

Ogygia is called, "the navel of the sea", as proposed by the Greek historian Strabo. This description is possibly locating the island in the middle of the Atlantic ocean.

The Greek word Phaiakians is derived from the word Phaios meaning grey and could mean dark-skinned. Ulysses awakens on the shore of Scheria to the sound of maidens laughing. The account says they were playing a ball game. This is one of the earliest mentions of a ball game in world literature. The Mayans were known to have ball games in their rituals.

One cannot help but match the Phaeacians with the actual Phoenicians who were also great sea navigators.

Athena continually aids Ulysses during his adventures in Ogygia and Scheria and she eventually gets him back to his home land of Ithaca.


[edit on 20-2-2008 by lostinspace]

[edit on 21-2-2008 by lostinspace]

[edit on 21-2-2008 by lostinspace]

Maybe theres some correlation between Inanna - Ishtar - Neith - Tanit - Athena (and a myriad of other goddess archetypes)

Inanna

Inanna (DINANNA ‭∹ ) is the Sumerian goddess of sexual love, fertility, and warfare. The Akkadians called her Ishtar.

Neith

It is thought that Neith may correspond to the goddess Tanit (Ta-Nit), worshipped in north Africa by the early Berber culture (existing from the beginnings of written records) and through the first Punic culture originating from the founding of Carthage by Dido. Ta-nit, meaning in Egyptian the land of Nit, also was a heavenly goddess of war, a virginal mother goddess and nurse, and, less specifically, a symbol of fertility. Her symbol is remarkably similar to the Egyptian ankh and her shrine, excavated at Sarepta in southern Phoenicia, revealed an inscription that related her securely to the Phoenician goddess Astarte (Ishtar).

Ishtar

Ishtar (DIŠTAR ‭⌋) is the Assyrian and Babylonian counterpart to the Sumerian Inanna and to the cognate northwest Semitic goddess Astarte. Anunit, Atarsamain and Esther are alternative names for Ishtar.

Tanit

Tanit[1] was a Phoenician lunar goddess, worshiped as the patron goddess at Carthage.[2] Tanit and Baal Hammon were worshiped in Punic contexts in the Western Mediterranean, from Malta to Gades into Hellenistic times. In North Africa, where the inscriptions and material remains are more plentiful, she was also a heavenly goddess of war, a virginal mother goddess and nurse, a consort of Baal and, less specifically, a symbol of fertility. Several of the major Greek goddesses were identified with Tanit by the syncretic interpretatio graeca, which recognized as Greek deities in foreign guise the gods of most of the surrounding non-Hellene cultures.

Athena

Athena's cult seems to have existed from very early times as the patron of Athens and was so persistent that myths about her were rewritten often to adapt to cultural changes over the multiple eras of Ancient Greek traditions. The Greek philosopher, Plato (429–347 B.C.E.), identified her with the Libyan deity Neith who was the war-goddess and huntress deity of the Egyptians since the ancient predynastic period. She also would come to be known as the goddess of wisdom as philosophy became applied to cult in the later fifth century.[1] She was the patroness of weaving especially, and other crafts (Athena Ergane) and the more disciplined side of war, where she led the battle

The Phoenician goddess Astarte is connected to the Akkadian Ishtar. Aphrodite was also originally a Phoenician cult. If Athena could in any way be traced back to a Phoenician Goddess archtype then there is evidence of Phoenician pre-columbian trans atlantic contact with the new world. It's drawing a rather long bow but an interesting concept nonetheless.
Thanks for the thread lostinspace, great research and it certainly got me thinking.

mojo

[edit on 21/2/08 by mojo4sale]

Sorry for the consecutive posts but i found these links also which i thought you might like.

Heres a good question and answer faq.

Source

Question: Why did Athena want the head of Medusa?
Answer: Ovid, in his Metamorphoses, says: "Once (Medusa) was beautiful, Pursued by many lovers, and best of beauties, she had glorious hair,...(Poseidon) had raped her in Athena's temple, A scene that shocked the nerves of (Zeus)'s pure daughter, who held her breastplate up to shield her eyes; as if to warn the girl of carelessness she turned her hair to snakes. Today (Athena) to keep bold strangers at a proper distance wears snakes on the gold shield across her breast." Ovid is saying that Athena wears the head to warn girls not to be careless and to keep strangers at the proper distance.

Question: What is Athena's symbol or emblem?
Answer: The emblem that Athena wears is a Gorgon's head. It is actually the head of the Gorgon Medusa. But it is not her emblem. It is the emblem of Zeus. Athena wears the shield or Aegis of Zeus.

There is another older story that she was born on the edge of Lake Triton (or Tritonis) in Libya. To the Greeks Libya was all of North Africa. Where Lake Triton was is not clear but it seems that where Tunisia is today seems likely. Robert Graves states the following: "...,she is revealed as Athene, the Goddess of Wisdom, who was born on the shores of Lake Triton in Libya and seems to have been originally, before her monstrous rebirth from Father Zeus's head, the Libyan Triple Goddess Neith, whom the Greeks called Lamia, or Libya.

As you might suspect the names of the gods and goddesses are extremely important. There is the suggestion that the name reveals the source of the deity. Robert Graves suggests that Anna and Athena are related names. Both words may be related to the sumerian word for heaven. This suggests that Athena may have come to Greece from Sumer. Athena's connection to North Africa is stonger, though.

Here's a link to a heap of pictures of Athena at the Perseus website.

Here are some things I found about Snakemen
in Iran, China and Greece.

and here even in Australia.

[edit on 21-2-2008 by Clearskies]

reply to post by mojo4sale



Thanks for the detailed research mojo4sale. The similarities of these goddesses is uncanny. Makes you wonder if a composite civilization in the past defined all the gods and goddesses from the beginning and then later their desendants continued some of the traditions.

Your research made me think about the goddess Ishtar. To this day society honors the goddess Ishtar through the observance of Easter. Sumer is returning to the northern hemisphere and Easter marks its arival.

I don't believe modern society has a celebration honoring Athena in a similar way. I could see higher education giving her honor because of the wisdom she represents. Also, if there was any strange occult to represent her today I would think she would be related to the Columbia goddess the US has created.

The link above about the origins of Columbia says this interesting statement, "By the age of late colonization, however, the Indian Queen came to be seen as perhaps too savage a symbol for the settlers' new home. She was soon replaced with a tamer, more anglicized American image: the Indian Princess, a tawny, barefoot beauty often guarded by a rattlesnake."

A female guarded by a snake sounds just like Athena in this case.


Thanks for all the input.

reply to post by Clearskies


Thanks for the research Clearskies. I can't help but notice that the various cultures had have sprung up from the same source with all this evidence.

I appreciate you showing me the images of Isis/Osiris (Egypt) and Fuxi Cang Jin (China) as intertwined snakes. These were really found in Iran?
This could prove that all the cultures of the world really owe their history to the middle east.

reply to post by lostinspace


No, those are not from Iran.
I had the one from Iran. I found it and then lost it.
It showed ahriman with coiled snakes in his hair.


Here is a depiction of Ahriman, a forerunner of Mithra.

His hair was made of snakes.



Notice the coiled snake.



[edit on 22-2-2008 by Clearskies]