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Your Beef with Catholicism

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posted on Aug, 19 2007 @ 02:03 AM
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Replies to Popeye, continued:


This one I can't prove, so if you would like to argue it, please send me your conclusion. I would like to see it proven true or false. The hat that the Popes wear at when he becomes pope, maybe called the Dagon Hat?

**It is referred to as the Dagon Hat by virulent anti-Catholics.
__________

has writing in Latin that says "Man as God on earth, over the Heavens, the Earth and the underworld". Underworld? Man as God on earth?

**I can’t find reference to this anywhere. I checked numerous places, including Catholic sites. I would think it safe to assume that this is another canard, likely from sources such as Jack Chick.
__________

The Crusades were pretty bad. Did the Catholics really kill more Jews than Arabs?

**I doubt it. Have any statistics on this?
_____
How about the Bishop that just annouced that we should call God Allah?

**How about him? He is wrong. That is NOT the policy of the Catholic Church. It is not even being reviewed as a possibility. It is widely regarded by Catholics and non-Catholics as being preposterous. Man is fallible. This Bishop is fairly strong proof of that.
____
Doesn't that fit into the prophecy of one of the beast powers from Revelations

**No, it doesn’t.
____
Is Revelations still in the Catholic Bible.

**Yes, it is in the Bible used by Catholics.
_____
Why is it called the Catholic Bible.

**It isn’t.
____

The Pope announces that other Christian religions are fake or not true. Wow, thats a pretty pointed statement.

**Yeah, it sure is. About as pointed as you’re saying that Catholicism is not a legitimate Christian expression as faith. About as pointed as ANY denomination of ANY Church believing that they have the true expression of religion. If they didn’t, why would they belong to that religion?
____
Wasn't the pope in Hitlers era in league with him?

**No.
___


Thanks for posting!

Eric




posted on Aug, 19 2007 @ 04:33 AM
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Ericd - Sorry to confuse you about the will post/won't post thing. My point was that I didn't want to get into a quote/link/opinion argument. I hope you understand that I am not questioning the intentions or the faith of the Catholic people. I really feel like you have good intentions, so I will reply to your post.

Remember the question was about my "beefs". Not about proving scripture or history.

Catholic Bible is refered to 3,000,000 times when googled. See Catholicity.com as a good example. Is there a non- Catholic version that has changed the Ten Commandments? Not being fasicious.

I'm glad you agree about Allah. I believe this is the start of the beast trying to combine Jews/Christians/Catholics.

Jews killed in the Crusades is also a google thing. Try Jews-for-allah.org Just one example of 836,000 hits.

Power to forgive Sin. Hmmm I can definitely see how an argument can be made for this. Please Ref: Mic 7:18, Acts 8:12, Dan 9:9,
Isa 43:25 and Psa:130:4. I fail to see any back up in the bible that says that God gave the power to forgive sin to man. I do see a lot of references for the need of man to forgive man. Like, how many times do you forgive your brother? If you confess to a man your sin, and he gives you a pentance, then why did Christ die?

Catholic Encyclopedia - 2,400,000 hits. Try catholicity.com or newadvent.org

Do you believe that Jesus had blonde hair and blue eyes?

Praying to Mary - I'm sorry, but I can't see any argument that even has credibility. Our direct contact to God is Jesus, who is God.

Wine - I would suggest you research and make your own conclusion about this. I believe the bible says fermentation of drink is bad. OT wine = Grape Juice.

Dagon Hat - also known as the fish hat, the specific hat is the inauguration hat. See Amazingfacts.com as told by Doug Bachleor.

So I think that was the bulk of it. Please use supporting links or ideas of how to understand your point of view, if you want me to respond. I really don't want to get into a fight over opinions.

Almost forgot, The Pope being in league with Hitler, Ref: book by John Cornellius, called Hitlers Pope. I believe ref: is to Pius XII. I understand this is very controversial, and even the book is questioned for it historical accuracy. But IMO, it just adds to my other concerns (Beefs).


[edit on 19-8-2007 by popeye0314]



posted on Aug, 19 2007 @ 05:01 AM
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Runetang - You mentioned Jesus saying on the cross " Lord, Lord why have you forsaken me?"

My understanding of this is that it is a reference to Psalms. As Jesus was the High Priest by the order of Melchizedek, he was praying and quoting Psalms as was the tradition of the High Priest when entering the Sabbath. I'm not sure but it may be Psalms 22 thru 27. This is really extraordinary, because the verse actually talks about the way that Jesus was crusified. The fact that none of his bones were broken and he was cut on his side. This is probably one of the best examples of what kind of a man Jesus was. So your exactly right, Jesus wasn't actually wandering why God as the father had forsaken God as the son.



posted on Aug, 19 2007 @ 05:57 AM
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Originally posted by EricD

Originally posted by hinky
I'd like someone to explain the difference between Catholics and a cult.

Catholics use ritualized cannibalism in worshiping an itinerant carpenter who had visions of grandeur.


Definition of a cult:
--------
A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader.
--------


Catholicism is not generally considered to be an extremist religion, it's followers are not considered to be living an unconventional life and Pope Benedict has been called a lot of things, but I've ever heard of him being called charismatic.


Eric


Catholicism not an extremist religion!!!
So how do you explain the torture and murder of 50,000,000 people over a 600 year period, that was a bit extreme wasn't it, as was their methods of torture, extremely disgusting

www.youtube.com...



posted on Aug, 19 2007 @ 08:22 AM
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Originally posted by golddragnet

Catholicism not an extremist religion!!!
So how do you explain the torture and murder of 50,000,000 people over a 600 year period, that was a bit extreme wasn't it, as was their methods of torture, extremely disgusting

www.youtube.com...


Whew, that actually was quite disturbing.
I wasn't aware of the Croatian situation. Will have to study up on that as well.



posted on Aug, 19 2007 @ 08:43 AM
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Originally posted by popeye0314
Power to forgive Sin. Hmmm I can definitely see how an argument can be made for this. Please Ref: Mic 7:18, Acts 8:12, Dan 9:9,
Isa 43:25 and Psa:130:4. I fail to see any back up in the bible that says that God gave the power to forgive sin to man. I do see a lot of references for the need of man to forgive man. Like, how many times do you forgive your brother? If you confess to a man your sin, and he gives you a pentance, then why did Christ die?


God forgives sin. The Church confers God's forgivness. Please also ref www.drurywriting.com...


Praying to Mary - I'm sorry, but I can't see any argument that even has credibility. Our direct contact to God is Jesus, who is God.


There is no prayer to Mary, in the sense of asking her to perform any kind of salvific act for us. What is done is request to her that she intercede for us to Jesus. We might also ask our friends on earth to pray for us. The Church encourages prayer to all the saints in this regard. The saints are taught to be in heaven and interceding to Jesus for us. The Church asks them to do this. The Church is "in communion" with them throught the sacraments (cf. Augustine), and united with them. For Biblical reference to the reality of the prayers of the saints in heaven: Revelation 5:8.

Just two points I thought I'd chip in with...

Cheers.

Rob.



posted on Aug, 19 2007 @ 09:00 AM
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Rob - Where do you think Mary is right now? There is a book called "Are the Dead Really Dead". Its a good read, and talks about sleep. My understanding is that once we die, we will sleep a dreamless sleep until the day of Judgement. I have never looked into Mary before, would you think that she was exempt from this, or do you believe that Heaven is currently filled with the people that have died?



posted on Aug, 19 2007 @ 09:09 AM
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Rob - Sorry, I missed the first part.

I will be happy to agree to disagree with you on this. It seems that if my brother sins against me, I should forgive him. By forgiving him I release him or unbind him from my point of view. But the sin is still there even though I don't hold it against him. It would be up to God to actually forgive the sin. This is where we will just have to disagree, because I don't understand how a man on earth can tell me to do works to be forgiven, when we are under grace. I think there is a basic belief in the role that men play in correlation to God, and because we have different beliefs, we could probably argue it forever. I still think we will end up in the same place someday, we can talk about it then.



posted on Aug, 19 2007 @ 10:00 AM
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Originally posted by popeye0314
I will be happy to agree to disagree with you on this.... I think there is a basic belief in the role that men play in correlation to God, and because we have different beliefs, we could probably argue it forever. I still think we will end up in the same place someday, we can talk about it then.


No worries on that. For me personally there is no such thing technically as "sinning against anyone" - you can only sin against God. You can do wrong to other people though...

There has been enough mudslinging threads when points like this come up for contention, so I am happy to leave the point. Just wanted to be on topic and point out that the catholics didn't make this all up from nothing.


By forgiving him I release him or unbind him from my point of view. But the sin is still there even though I don't hold it against him. It would be up to God to actually forgive the sin.


Off topic a little, but we can play a little mind-game here... if I can say "it matters" not to a wrong done to me, and mean it, then God *must* also do the same thing. If He did not do the same thing, then I would be being more merciful than God, which is a logical impossibility.... ???

Cheers.



posted on Aug, 19 2007 @ 10:04 AM
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Originally posted by popeye0314
Rob - Where do you think Mary is right now? There is a book called "Are the Dead Really Dead". Its a good read, and talks about sleep. My understanding is that once we die, we will sleep a dreamless sleep until the day of Judgement. I have never looked into Mary before, would you think that she was exempt from this, or do you believe that Heaven is currently filled with the people that have died?


The latter for me, or at least those who have died in a state of grace or been otherwise made pure.

The question of "right now" is a throroughly misleading aspect. A trans-temporal and eternal heaven is not bound by our "right now" in any way at all. The flow of time in the universe has no impact on it. Any reference to our past present and future in this universe is inapplicable to heaven.

But anyway, the NT is full of descriptions which indicate a heaven full of the faithful departed. I will dig out a load of quotes if you want them...

Rob.



posted on Aug, 19 2007 @ 10:13 AM
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perhaps the separation is whether or not the body is present in Heaven at the same time as the spirit, when the body passes away. it could be that the body is the thing that awaits resurrection until the judgement, whereas the spirit is present with God from the time the body passes?



posted on Aug, 19 2007 @ 10:26 AM
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Rob - Are your conclusions Bible based or are they your own understanding? I would recommend the book "Are the Dead Really Dead". If you google it, there are a lot of links (it's free). If you have a link to information that explains your view, let me know and I will read it.

If you believe that past family members are currently in Heaven due to the non-existance of time, are those folks able to come back and communicate or intercede on our behalf? In are current time restrained condition? Hence ghosts and poltergiests? Can we communicate with the dead?



posted on Aug, 19 2007 @ 04:13 PM
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My reply to Popeye:


Originally posted by popeye0314
Catholic Bible is refered to 3,000,000 times when googled.

**I should have been a bit more clear. I believe that the term ‘Catholic Bible’ exists, but by non-Catholics. Catholics refer to the Bible used by Catholics as simply ‘the Bible’. The official title of the Bible I have near me is: Holy Bible (bold faced) with Deuterocannonicals/Apocrypha (normal text) and was distributed by the Diocese of Rockville Center.
______________
See Catholicity.com as a good example. Is there a non- Catholic version that has changed the Ten Commandments? Not being fasicious.

**That sort of suggests that I or other Catholics believe that the Catholic version of the Bible changed the Ten Commandments.

I’m assuming that your concern is with graven images. You may want to review this:
www.newadvent.org...

and this:
www.theotokos.co.za...

Please let me know if I’m not understanding your concern correctly.
________________
I'm glad you agree about Allah. I believe this is the start of the beast trying to combine Jews/Christians/Catholics.

**I would not be surprised if that was 100% true. I realize that this contradicts my earlier post and I apologize for that. It was late and I was tired and I didn’t realize that you were referring to an attempted amalgamation of all Churches in the End Times.
_______________

Jews killed in the Crusades is also a google thing. Try Jews-for-allah.org Just one example of 836,000 hits.

**Oh, I realize that Jews were killed in the crusades. I just doubt whether more Jews were killed than Muslims.
________________

Power to forgive Sin. Hmmm I can definitely see how an argument can be made for this. Please Ref: Mic 7:18, Acts 8:12, Dan 9:9,
Isa 43:25 and Psa:130:4. I fail to see any back up in the bible that says that God gave the power to forgive sin to man. I do see a lot of references for the need of man to forgive man. Like, how many times do you forgive your brother? If you confess to a man your sin, and he gives you a pentance, then why did Christ die?

**I think that we will have to agree to disagree on this. I can certainly concede that your point is legitimate, and your argument has merit, I just disagree with your conclusion.
___________

Catholic Encyclopedia - 2,400,000 hits. Try catholicity.com or newadvent.org

**I’m not sure what you are saying here.
__________

Do you believe that Jesus had blonde hair and blue eyes?

**No, not at all. I believe that he most likely had brown eyes and dark hair and was of Semitic appearance.
____________

Praying to Mary - I'm sorry, but I can't see any argument that even has credibility. Our direct contact to God is Jesus, who is God.

**Just to clarify, it is not necessarily a Mary bone of contention, but you believe that you should not ask for intercession with God from anyone?

Here is a site that you may want to take a look at:
www.ewtn.com...

I think that the crux of the matter is that just as you may pray for a friend or family member, we ask others to pray for us and that we don’t limit that request to the living.
_________

Wine - I would suggest you research and make your own conclusion about this. I believe the bible says fermentation of drink is bad. OT wine = Grape Juice.

**I have. Thank you. You may want to check out this site: www.biblestudy.org... for a differing view.



Continued in the next post.

Eric



posted on Aug, 19 2007 @ 04:51 PM
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Eric - I think we both got across what we wanted, and I am glad we both hold the same basic belief. The rest of it we will all have to do are best to understand, and make decisions based on our own experience. I will look at the links you sent and I hope you look at the books I recommended. It was nice to find someone that could discuss thier opinions rationaly. Regards, Matt



posted on Aug, 19 2007 @ 08:07 PM
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Originally posted by golddragnet

Catholicism not an extremist religion!!!
So how do you explain the torture and murder of 50,000,000 people over a 600 year period, that was a bit extreme wasn't it, as was their methods of torture, extremely disgusting

www.youtube.com...


What 600 year period are you referring to? Can you provide any links to population studies that show this? I checked out the video and the originating site and it doesn't really provide any serious confirmation for these claims.

As a matter of fact, if you look at population examples such as:

www.fordham.edu...

it would be hard to believe that a number like that could possibly be close to accurate.

Thanks,

Eric



posted on Aug, 19 2007 @ 08:09 PM
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Originally posted by popeye0314
Eric - I think we both got across what we wanted, and I am glad we both hold the same basic belief. The rest of it we will all have to do are best to understand, and make decisions based on our own experience. I will look at the links you sent and I hope you look at the books I recommended. It was nice to find someone that could discuss thier opinions rationaly. Regards, Matt


I will definitely check out the books you recommended. Thanks for bringing your beliefs to my attention.

Eric



posted on Aug, 22 2007 @ 08:05 PM
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This is a PERFECT example why I don't bother to post at ATS much anymore. So much error .. and it even gets applause at times. :shk:


Originally posted by EricD
whether or not the Catholic Church was the whore of Babylon as mentioned in Revelation.

Of course not. Revelation was written for THAT time period. Not for now.


Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
My only "beef" with Catholicism is the pedophilia.

Pedophilia isn't 'Catholic'. What happened in the church involved less than 1/10 of 1% of priests. Pedophiles saw a hunting ground and 'went for it'. Pedophilia isn't 'catholic'.


Originally posted by Vipassana
the Catholic church is akin to a cult.

Technically ALL religions are cults.


They lead millions astray with their false doctrine:

'false doctrine'?? Says you. That's a matter of interpretation.


The Pope is an absurd idea.

Matthew 16:18 ... Tell that to Christ. :shk:


Catholics worship kings, not God.

Crack open the Catechism some time. Catholics worship GOD ALONE.


The policy of Abstinence in Africa promotes Aids and the spread of HIV.

That is absurd. You are claiming that people in Africa are going to listen to the pope when it comes to birth control (condoms) but not listen to the pope when it comes to sex-out-of wedlock?????


revise their false faith

Wrong. Just as a baby can only understand just so much about life, so too humans can only understand just so much about God. As time goes on .. the baby learns more and understands more. Same with humans and God. Nothing is 'revised'. It is just better understood with time.


Originally posted by hinky
the person needs to worship the middleman

WRONG. Catholics only worship God. Read the Catechism.


Originally posted by Vipassana
As for the pope, sure many don't "worship" him, but many do.

:shk: More errors. NO ONE worships the pope. People get excited to see him ... but no one 'worships' him.


Catholics have been very selective about waht goes in or out of the bible.

The Catholic Church put the bible together back in the 300s. It was MARTIN LUTHER who tore it apart, rearranged it, and tossed out books.


Originally posted by Clearskies
Not the traditions of men.

Scripture specifically states that people should 'hold fast' to sacred traditions that have been handed down.


The vicar of christ(The pope),
according to church dogma is Christ until christ returns.

Dead wrong. Read the Catechism. Christ is Christ. The pope is not. Period.


Originally posted by Quazga
Basically the Pope is a surrugate Jesus then...

No. Matthew 16:18


Originally posted by Clearskies
When someone meets with the pope, they must kneel,kiss his ring and call him lord

WRONG.


people pay money for when the pope opens those doors in Rome for them to walk through and recieve forgiveness?????

WRONG.


You cannot be saved (according to the church) except by receiving All seven sacraments and joining thier church.

:shk: Again - WRONG.


Originally posted by runetang
Then they symbolically drink the blood (wine) and eat the flesh (bread).

WRONG. The protestants believe that communion is symbolic. The Catholics believe that the communion is the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Christ. See JOHN 6.


They butchered the Bible!

They put the bible together in the 300s. It was Martin Luther who ripped it apart; added words; tore out books; and rearranged the bible.


They are the Whore of Babylon.

Revelation was written for THAT time period. Not this one.


Originally posted by Legalizer
I've never met a catholic that practiced what was preached. I don't know the adjectives to describe these people. Lets see, drunk, drug addicts, sex fiends, hypocrites, gossips, jealous, suspicious, unfaithful. Thats a few descriptions.

:shk: Not that you care .. but that disgusts me. You just described the entire world .. and yet you put the 'catholic' label on it. You are in desperate need of education and prayer. Congratulations .. you are now on my prayer list.


They are against contraception, which leads to more AIDS in their parishes

Another statement that makes no sense. So Catholics are going to listen to Rome and not use contraception .. but then NOT listen to Rome and have sex? Which is it? They are listening or they are not listening? NEWSFLASH .. less than 10% of Catholics use Natural Family Planning. Yep ... the other 90% don't listen to Rome when it comes to sex and they don't listen when it comes to constraception either.


and overpopulation especially among their poorest members.

Miost Catholic families have LESS than 2 children per couple.


Damn them all to hell.

:barf" Lovely.


Originally posted by GeneralT.
There are many true christians in the catholic church who receive salvation from Jesus, not the pope.

The Church does NOT CLAIM that salvation comes from the Pope. It says salvation comes from CHRIST.


Originally posted by emjoi
No salvation except thru the Church.

Not true. Pope Pius X people ... who were excommunicated from the Church .. believed that. However, the Catholic Church is very clear that non-Catholics can be saved. Read the Catechism. Read the recent statements from Pope John Paul II.


That's why the split occurred between Catholics and Protestants in the first place.

That's what people what you to believe. The fact is that Martin Luther had some 'issues' that weren't spiritual. There is more to the 'split' than what romantic history says.


So he's not the surrogate for Jesus, but he's the manager of the Official Franchise.

Manager. So what? EVERY church on earth has a manager.


Originally posted by tankthinker
I blame catholicism for holding me back from my true thinking state. I am now an athiest.

If Catholicism held you back from being an 'athiest' .. then good!


Originally posted by dbrandt
As a sidenote since the catholic church teaches 99.99999% of catholics go to purgatory first,

WRONG. The Catholic church acknowledges that the 'road to Hell is wide and the path to heaven is narrow and rarely trod'. It also states that no one knows how many go to heaven and how many go to hell. Therefore .. your statement is completely false.


The real christian church...

Catholics are real christians.


stood up to the catholic heirarchy and thus the reformation.

You really need to read up on Martin Luthers real 'issues' ... they weren't spiritual at all.


the doctrine of the rapture

.... IS new and is NOT biblical at all. It wasn't 'rediscovered'.


Originally posted by popeye0314
So who gave authority to Catholic Churches to forgive sin?

Christ - Matthew 16:18


there is the idea that the Pope is God on earth

Wrong.


How can a group or church change the Ten Commandments?

Ask Martin Luther. HE's the one that changed them.


Praying to Mary is also a big thumbs down, along with any other saint.

The bible encourages us all to pray for each other. Asking the saints to pray for us to God is a big thumbs up!


Drinking wine is another little stumble.

It was good enough for Christ and the apostles at the wedding of Cana. In fact .. it was so good that the wine ran out and Christ even made MORE. And no .. it wasn't grape juice.



How about the Bishop that just annouced that we should call God Allah?

He's a whack and said something that was not approved by Rome.


The Pope announces that other Christian religions are fake or not true.

He said that other Christian groups are not 'the church'. So what? EVERY Christian church thinks they are the 'true church'. Big deal.


Originally posted by EricD
**It is referred to as the Dagon Hat by virulent anti-Catholics.

A lot of people get their 'catholic education' from Jack Chick and protestant 'ministers' who claim to be telling their flocks the truth .. but are really just passing on more lies and anti-Catholic propaganda. It's really awful.


Originally posted by popeye0314
Where do you think Mary is right now? ... My understanding is that once we die, we will sleep a dreamless sleep until the day of Judgement.


Mary is in heaven. Some Christians believe that people 'fall asleep' at death and then wake up at Judgement all together ... but MOST Christians do not believe that. Most believe that when you die you are fully awake and continue on to where you are supposed to go.


[edit on 8/22/2007 by FlyersFan]



posted on Aug, 25 2007 @ 12:52 PM
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Flyersfan - You seem to be well versed in opinions. Please explain the following so that the rest of us can catch up.


What is the Dagon hat and what is written on the front. Does it add up to 666?

Why in the lords prayer do we ask that the Lord forgive us as we would forgive those who trespass against us. Is this also stating that we as men have the power to forgive sins? Is this the power that Christ annointed to the disciples in John?

What did Pope Leo XIII mean by stating The pope holds "upon this earth the place of God Almighty. Has the view changed?

What is the definition of Vicar or Vicarious? In reference to the Pope being the Vicar of Christ.

Do you believe that the Catholic Church is one of the beasts from revelations? If not, than who or what are the beasts?

Why don't Catholics believe that the Ten Commandments were changed? Do you believe there is an older manuscript that leaves out the 2nd commandment?

Please be factual and not opinionated. I for one would be very willing to take into consideration your points if you can back up your answers with logic. I think we are all looking for the same result, the truth. If you believe you know the truth, help us to see things as you do.



posted on Aug, 25 2007 @ 09:26 PM
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Popeye,

I realize that your questions were directed at FlyersFan, but I hope you won’t mind if I take a stab at answering a few.

What is the Dagon hat and what is written on the front. Does it add up to 666?

**The Dagon Hat is a term used by virulently anti-Catholics for the headwear of the Pope. The term comes from the shape, which they believe looks like a fish’s mouth in an attempt to link Roman Catholicism to paganistic dagon worshiping. If you take a look at my response to this same point earlier in this thread you would have seen a link that displayed how the hat has evolved over the centuries and has assumed it’s current form well after a millennia of the RC Church being in existence.

To the best of my knowledge, the hat doesn’t have any lettering on it. Can you provide any photos that show otherwise?**

Why in the lords prayer do we ask that the Lord forgive us as we would forgive those who trespass against us. Is this also stating that we as men have the power to forgive sins? Is this the power that Christ annointed to the disciples in John?

**Because forgiving others is a virtue that should be practiced and each iteration of that prayer is a reminder of that virtue. In an attempt to emulate the model that God has given us, we should forgive others for transgressions that aggrieve us.

No, it is not an implicit suggestion that we have the power to forgive the sins of others.**

What did Pope Leo XIII mean by stating The pope holds "upon this earth the place of God Almighty. Has the view changed?

**Actually, I’m not sure that he was saying that about the Pope. I will look into it further and try to get a copy of the original Italian, but I believe that he may have been speaking of the Catholic Church, not the Papacy. And I believe that the statement is that the Church is a placeholder, as the Bride of Christ, waiting for the return of her Groom.

So, it appears to me that the quote is not showing that the Pope believes that he is God in the absence of the Lord, but instead that he is acting as the steward of the Church until Christ returns.

Here is the full quote (albeit in English):

“But since We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty, Who will have all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the Truth, and now that Our advanced age and the bitterness of anxious cares urge Us on towards the end common to every mortal, We feel drawn to follow the example of Our Redeemer and Master, Jesus Christ, Who, when about to return to Heaven, implored of God, His Father, in earnest Prayer, that His Disciples and followers should be of one mind and of one heart: I pray . . . that they all may be one, as Thou Father in Me, and I in Thee: that they also may be one in Us. And as this Divine Prayer and Supplication does not include only the souls who then believed in Jesus Christ, but also every one of those who were henceforth to believe in Him, this Prayer holds out to Us no indifferent reason for confidently expressing Our hopes, and for making all possible endeavors in order that the men of every race and clime should be called and moved to embrace the Unity of Divine Faith.”**

What is the definition of Vicar or Vicarious? In reference to the Pope being the Vicar of Christ.

** Title for the Pope since the 8th century, which replaced the older title "Vicar of St. Peter." It expresses the Pope's claim to be the appointed representative of Christ on earth (based on, eg, "Feed my sheep" in John 21:15).
www.religionfacts.com/christianity/glossary.htm

You asked specifically ‘In reference to the Pope being the Vicar of Christ.’**

Do you believe that the Catholic Church is one of the beasts from revelations? If not, than who or what are the beasts?

**Well, this is one I can’t answer for FlyersFan as it is entirely opinion based. Were you looking for the opinions of others?**
Cont'd in next post.



posted on Aug, 25 2007 @ 09:27 PM
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Cont'd response to Popeye:

Why don't Catholics believe that the Ten Commandments were changed? Do you believe there is an older manuscript that leaves out the 2nd commandment?

** I’m going to have to look into this a bit more as I don’t like using non-direct source material, but it appears that the Septuagint supports the version of the Ten Commandments used by the RCC and is dated from 148 b.c.

Here is a site to help answer that question:
www.theotokos.co.za...
**

Please be factual and not opinionated. I for one would be very willing to take into consideration your points if you can back up your answers with logic.

**Same here! If you have any claims that you think you can back up, please post them. I would be more than happy to look into them. Hopefully I can learn something new.**

Eric



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