Your Beef with Catholicism

On another thread there was a discussion regarding paganisms influence (if any) on Christianity. That thread started to move into a discussion about the works of Alexander Hislop, author of The Two Babylons.

That discussion then started to move into an exploration of whether or not the Catholic Church was the whore of Babylon as mentioned in Revelation.

It was suggested by another poster that a new thread be created to discuss these themes, so here we are.

I'm happy to discuss any 'beefs' with Catholicism with the exception of one. I respectfully request that we leave out questions of pedophilia and Church cover-up of same. Why? Because there is no need for debate. It was and is heinous. In addition, it is covered in other threads.

So, what are your thoughts on Catholicism?


Eric

Originally posted by EricD
I'm happy to discuss any 'beefs' with Catholicism with the exception of one. I respectfully request that we leave out questions of pedophilia and
Eric

Well, that completely takes anything I have against the Catholic religion out of the equation. As far as their beliefs, they can believe anything they want. I don't care. My only "beef" with Catholicism is the pedophilia.

[edit on 11-8-2007 by SpeakerofTruth]

In my opinion, the Catholic church is akin to a cult.

-They lead millions astray with their false doctrine: the idea that you must submit to Jesus to get into Heaven, or else face Hell. This is ludicrous and is not very spiritual at all. Anyone who buys into this is missing out on the beauty of the Universe.

-The Pope is an absurd idea. No man is closer to God than another, and it is foolish to place any Pope on such a high throne. Catholics worship kings, not God.

-The Papists pick and choose which parts of scripture are to be accepted. They leave out so much of the bible its outrageous that they claim it to be the infallible word of God.

-Billions of dollars have been spent on the Vatican shrine, and it has nothing to do with spirituality at all.

-The policy of Abstinence in Africa promotes Aids and the spread of HIV.

-Unable to keep up with the times, Catholics constantly revise their false faith in an attempt to maintain control over their cult.

The list goes on and on. The atrocities of the past as well as present, the authoritarian ideologies, and the false doctrine of faith have fooled millions and it is a great tragedy.

[edit on 11-8-2007 by Vipassana]

I'd like someone to explain the difference between Catholics and a cult.

Catholics use ritualized cannibalism in worshiping an itinerant carpenter who had visions of grandeur.

Originally posted by Vipassana
In my opinion, the Catholic church is akin to a cult.

You posted this while I was posting my comment. Thanks for the answer!

You left out the part that a person needs to told what God's thinks by a middleman or that the person needs to worship the middleman, so to speak. He could be Jim Jones or John Paul.



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[edit on 12-8-2007 by DontTreadOnMe]

They need to rethink they're stances on marriage for priests, divorce, abortion, and birth control. Those positions are impossible to support.

On the other hand, aren't they more amenable to scientific theories such as evolution than more fundamentalist Christian sects?

If discovered or contacted, it wouldn't surprise me to see the Catholic Church be relatively accepting of the existence of extraterrestrial life forms no matter their complexity.

A real plus are their church festivals. Raffles, chicken dinners, fish fries, pig roasts, fun games and rides for the kids, bingo, live music, cheap beer; you can't say that Catholics don't know how to have a good time while they're fundraising. There are worse ways to spend a summer Friday or Saturday night than at a Catholic Church festival.

Originally posted by hinky
I'd like someone to explain the difference between Catholics and a cult.

Catholics use ritualized cannibalism in worshiping an itinerant carpenter who had visions of grandeur.

Definition of a cult:
--------
A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader.
--------


Catholicism is not generally considered to be an extremist religion, it's followers are not considered to be living an unconventional life and Pope Benedict has been called a lot of things, but I've ever heard of him being called charismatic.


Eric

Originally posted by EricD
Definition of a cult:
--------
A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader.
--------

Catholicism is not generally considered to be an extremist religion, it's followers are not considered to be living an unconventional life and Pope Benedict has been called a lot of things, but I've ever heard of him being called charismatic.

Maybe its not considered extremist but it is certainly false. It says often living, not always. From my view catholics are living unconventionally, who would willingly follow a false doctrine? I would hope that the church does not dictate their core beliefs.

Quotes in parenthetical s from another poster:

(-They lead millions astray with their false doctrine: the idea that you must submit to Jesus to get into Heaven, or else face Hell. This is ludicrous and is not very spiritual at all. Anyone who buys into this is missing out on the beauty of the Universe.)

Yet most Christian scholars believe that this is legitimately what the Bible claims. You may disagree, but I don’t think that the belief that following Christ is necessary for anyone to enter Heaven is a radical thought.

(-The Pope is an absurd idea. No man is closer to God than another, and it is foolish to place any Pope on such a high throne. Catholics worship kings, not God.)

There are legitimate arguments for the establishment of the Papacy and Papal succession, but more importantly, are you under the impression that Catholics worship the Pope?

(-The Papists pick and choose which parts of scripture are to be accepted. They leave out so much of the bible its outrageous that they claim it to be the infallible word of God.)

Can you be more specific? Exactly what parts of Scripture are not accepted by Catholics?

(-Billions of dollars have been spent on the Vatican shrine, and it has nothing to do with spirituality at all. )

Is this a condemnation of what you believe to be the wealth of the Church or are you discussing the cost of upkeep for a city and her inhabitants for 2000 years?

(-The policy of Abstinence in Africa promotes Aids and the spread of HIV. )

I don’t think it promotes it, but it certainly doesn’t suppress it.

(-Unable to keep up with the times, Catholics constantly revise their false faith in an attempt to maintain control over their cult. )

Can you give a few examples?

Thanks!

Eric

The belief that you must submit to Christ to get into heaven is irresponsible. Just because you say "Jesus" before you go to bed does not absolve you of your sins. The idea is insane, just most of the world hasn't realized it. Take control of your own spirituality.

As for the pope, sure many don't "worship" him, but many do. He wears a crown of gold, and people will go by the thousands just to see him. And what is he but someone apointed? Again, the whole notion of a pope is truly laughable. It gives a false appearance of the papacy being closer to God than others, which surely is not the case.

The gnostic texts are not accepted by the Vatican.

Is it necessary to build a massive palace in order to practice religion? I don't care how long ago it was, in fact that makes it all the more ridiculous.

I dont have any offhand examples, but I am certain that over the years Catholics have been very selective about waht goes in or out of the bible.

Originally posted by Vipassana

Maybe its not considered extremist but it is certainly false. It says often living, not always. From my view catholics are living unconventionally, who would willingly follow a false doctrine? I would hope that the church does not dictate their core beliefs.

Well, it may be 'certain' to you but if that was the case with everyone there would be no need for debate. I think that you would admit that not everyone is 'certain' that Catholicism is a 'false' religion?

Catholics clearly don't believe that they are following a false doctrine.

I think that by the standard definition Catholicism can't be considered a cult, but I could certainly see how that term could apply when referring to the Catholic Church while part of fundamentalist or evangelical nomenclature.

Thanks,

Eric

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[edit on 12-8-2007 by DontTreadOnMe]

There are christians within the catholic church, but for anyone to be obedient to Jesus, they must focus on him and his word. Not the traditions of men.
The vicar of christ(The pope),
according to church dogma is Christ until christ returns.
One definition of vicar is "instead of"
Beware.

(The belief that you must submit to Christ to get into heaven is irresponsible. Just because you say "Jesus" before you go to bed does not absolve you of your sins. The idea is insane, just most of the world hasn't realized it. Take control of your own spirituality.)

Two quick points:
1) We are now broadening the discussion to Christianity in general, as most Christians believe that Jesus is necessary for salvation. As this is not a specific Catholic point of contention I’m inclined not to get in too deep here.
2) Is this concept (needing Christ for salvation) any more or less ‘insane’ than the concept of a Heaven?

(As for the pope, sure many don't "worship" him, but many do. He wears a crown of gold, and people will go by the thousands just to see him. And what is he but someone apointed? Again, the whole notion of a pope is truly laughable. It gives a false appearance of the papacy being closer to God than others, which surely is not the case.)

So, from what your saying, many people worship the Queen of England?

(The gnostic texts are not accepted by the Vatican.)

Similar to the first point, not adhering to or believing in the Gnostic gospels is not unique to Catholicism. Most of Christianity refutes the belief that they are canonical.

(Is it necessary to build a massive palace in order to practice religion? I don't care how long ago it was, in fact that makes it all the more ridiculous.)

No, it’s not needed. I don’t know of anyone who ever said it was.

(I dont have any offhand examples, but I am certain that over the years Catholics have been very selective about waht goes in or out of the bible.)

I’d be happy to read with interest any examples that you come up with.

Thanks,

Eric

Originally posted by Clearskies
There are christians within the catholic church, but for anyone to be obedient to Jesus, they must focus on him and his word. Not the traditions of men.
The vicar of christ(The pope),
according to church dogma is Christ until christ returns.
One definition of vicar is "instead of"
Beware.

That is completely untrue. I would appreciate it if you could find any statement from a Catholic source that supports the belief that the Pope is Christ until Christ returns.

Thanks,

Eric

True my beef is not limited to Catholicism. I would agree that the notion of Heaven is ridiculous, at least how Christians present it. I think Heaven is a state of mind similar to enlightenment, achievable on Earth, not in the clouds. I'll leave it at that though and focus more on Catholicism.

Yes, from what I'm saying many people do indeed worship the queen. But the big difference is that the Queen is representing a nation, where as the Pope is representing an entire religion and spirituality.

So you are in agreement that Vatican city is a totally unnecessary representation of the faith?

How about the inclusion of the Apocrypha? What criteria does the Vatican follow when deciding whether a text is the word of god? Is it not simply men making decisions? I would rather place my faith in God rather than a book with passages decided by people thousands of years ago whom I know nothing about.

Originally posted by Vipassana
True my beef is not limited to Catholicism. I would agree that the notion of Heaven is ridiculous, at least how Christians present it. I think Heaven is a state of mind similar to enlightenment, achievable on Earth, not in the clouds. I'll leave it at that though and focus more on Catholicism.

Had you taken time to wander sincerely among Catholics and other Christian expressions of faith, you may have stumbled upon a similar concept of "heaven" as your own. But I shall not lecture you, as "...not by words, but by your deeds shall your faith be revealed".
Go out and mingle with the world. You may be surprised.

But the big difference is that the Queen is representing a nation, where as the Pope is representing an entire religion and spirituality.

Neither "The Queen nor the Pope" are worshipped. They are revered, honored, but worshipped, no. This is not part of Roman Catholic doctrine.

How about the inclusion of the Apocrypha?

What is your argument?

What criteria does the Vatican follow when deciding whether a text is the word of god? Is it not simply men making decisions?

Yes, simplistically framed, "they" make a decision. We all "make decisions" based on our free will, to the best of our knowledge with the intention we may have at the time, imperfect at the best.
Misleading at times, yes.
False, yes.
This is our fate as humans. The truth shall be revealed little by little.
Who am I to render an others truth as false?
Whom holds the truth?

I would rather place my faith in God rather than a book with passages decided by people thousands of years ago whom I know nothing about.

I believe you are contradicting your self dear, all our knowledge is extracted from those who have walked before us, with out them we would still be ignorant berry gatherers. You have chosen your name here Vipassana, presumably to represent your personality.
An ancient definition of enlightenment? Do we not all pass down a fragment of awareness of the Divine?

Speak with care, with kindness, I have traveled around the world and found the compassion of our Creator in many places among many people and religions.
You will not find the answers to your questions by expessing anger and resentment.


WIS

[edit on 11-8-2007 by WalkInSilence]

Originally posted by EricD


That is completely untrue. I would appreciate it if you could find any statement from a Catholic source that supports the belief that the Pope is Christ until Christ returns.

Thanks,

Eric

Eric,
Look up Temporal Rule at catholic sites.

Originally posted by Clearskies

Eric,
Look up Temporal Rule at catholic sites.

I'm sorry, I'm a bit in the dark here. Can you be a little more explicit? Are you referring to indulgences to forgo temporal punishments? Or that the Pope oversees the Church in a temporal fashion? Or something else entirely?

Thanks!

Eric

Here's a site that has nothing to do with hislop, although hislop's work is very respected by truthseekers!!
OOPS! Sorry,
as I went through that site, I see where they do refer to him. Still good though!

Catholic church


[edit on 11-8-2007 by Clearskies]

Originally posted by EricD


I'm sorry, I'm a bit in the dark here. Can you be a little more explicit? Are you referring to indulgences to forgo temporal punishments? Or that the Pope oversees the Church in a temporal fashion? Or something else entirely?

Thanks!

Eric

What it means is that through Peter(supposedly), the apostolic successors are granted full authority as Jesus-on-earth.
As well as infallabilty, the pope acts for God according to the church.