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Science vs. Spirituality - Debate

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posted on Aug, 9 2007 @ 08:41 PM
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I'm going to say something extremely controversial now, but understand that it's all in a good discussion context.

First, I'll make my statement: 'I believe that Science hasn't solved any of Mankind's problems...'

Next, I'll give my reasons:

Science, by it's very definition, exists in order to seek truth, the way our Universe works, and to create out of this gained knowledge.

But, as far as I can see, all that science has done so far, is make names for things and list what it does, and so doesn't actually serve any purpose except that of lessening the curiosity of Humanity, and therefore destroying the races' creativeness and collective consciousness.

For example, electricity is one such phenomenon that scientists have no clue whatsoever about. They don't know what it actually is, all they can say is that it is 'energy', and then lists the functionality of electricity and what it can do.

Science, so far, perhaps excluding medical science, has done nothing but dumb down humanity's search for answers, and has completely wiped spirituality off the map, simply because scientists use long words and possess the nack of making it seem as if these things we see around us are positively sussed-out.

I, however, think that it is obvious we have gone the wrong way in our search for answers. Science will never give us answers, only theories, whereas individual spirituality will always give answers to which questions you may ponder according to our personal realities.

In short, if people weren't so damn sure they knew everything there is to know about the Universe, perhaps they'd be further along the line to finding out the truth than we are now.

Happy to hear what you have to say, and don't mind being sweared at either...


Moy Moy!




posted on Aug, 9 2007 @ 08:47 PM
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I believe science has presented invaluable answers and solutions to a number of things in our past. Automobiles were not strictly inspired by rigorously spiritual people.


I don't plan to decry spirituality any more than I wish to decry science. I just believe that constantly pitting the two against each other is like arguing that oranges are healthier for you than carrots. Both are useful in your diet, and it would be silly to abandon one for the other simply because it appears to contain more Vitamin A or C.

And with my inconsequential point made, I will toddle off. Cheers!



posted on Aug, 9 2007 @ 08:56 PM
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Originally posted by FrankGoggles
I'm going to say something extremely controversial now, but understand that it's all in a good discussion context.

First, I'll make my statement: 'I believe that Science hasn't solved any of Mankind's problems...'

Next, I'll give my reasons:

Science, by it's very definition, exists in order to seek truth, the way our Universe works, and to create out of this gained knowledge.


Moy Moy!


science is the new religion.



posted on Aug, 9 2007 @ 08:57 PM
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Originally posted by Mr Jackdaw
I believe science has presented invaluable answers and solutions to a number of things in our past. Automobiles were not strictly inspired by rigorously spiritual people.


I don't plan to decry spirituality any more than I wish to decry science. I just believe that constantly pitting the two against each other is like arguing that oranges are healthier for you than carrots. Both are useful in your diet, and it would be silly to abandon one for the other simply because it appears to contain more Vitamin A or C.

And with my inconsequential point made, I will toddle off. Cheers!


was henry ford a scientist? Wasn't he a devout anglican or something?



posted on Aug, 9 2007 @ 09:09 PM
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Originally posted by jimjamjerry

Originally posted by Mr Jackdaw
Automobiles were not strictly inspired by rigorously spiritual people.


And with my inconsequential point made, I will toddle off. Cheers!


was henry ford a scientist? Wasn't he a devout anglican or something?


I'm sure he must have had his religious affiliation, as did most people in that time. But as I failed to clarify, automobiles were not created as a result of spiritual introspection, or rigorous spirituality. If the Late Henry Ford's religion had been an important part of his accomplishments, I'm sure we would all be aware of it. But I think he's more remembered for the Model T than for what he did on Sundays.

I hope I have made my (inconsequential) point



posted on Aug, 9 2007 @ 09:12 PM
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Originally posted by Mr Jackdaw

Originally posted by jimjamjerry

Originally posted by Mr Jackdaw
Automobiles were not strictly inspired by rigorously spiritual people.


And with my inconsequential point made, I will toddle off. Cheers!


was henry ford a scientist? Wasn't he a devout anglican or something?


I'm sure he must have had his religious affiliation, as did most people in that time. But as I failed to clarify, automobiles were not created as a result of spiritual introspection, or rigorous spirituality. If the Late Henry Ford's religion had been an important part of his accomplishments, I'm sure we would all be aware of it. But I think he's more remembered for the Model T than for what he did on Sundays.

I hope I have made my (inconsequential) point



have you heard of Kekule and the benzene ring?



posted on Aug, 9 2007 @ 09:17 PM
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The enlightenment of the Human race depends on the perfect merger of science and spirituality.

Science has improved our lives dramatically, our present generations live like Gods compared to most people of the last 5000 years, and surely science has played a role in this.

I believe that when science can accept spirituality as a universal phenomena to be included in legitimate experiments and studies, we will finally be on the right path.

Science and spirituality are not VS., but they are ultimately one.



posted on Aug, 9 2007 @ 09:55 PM
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Originally posted by jimjamjerry

have you heard of Kekule and the benzene ring?


I hadn't heard of him before now, but a quick search brought up the following information:


The new understanding of benzene, and hence of all aromatic compounds, proved to be so important for both pure and applied chemistry that in 1890 the German Chemical Society organized an elaborate appreciation in Kekulé's honor, celebrating the twenty-fifth anniversary of his first benzene paper. Here Kekulé spoke of the creation of the theory. He said that he had discovered the ring shape of the benzene molecule after having a reverie or day-dream of a snake seizing its own tail (this is a common symbol in many ancient cultures known as the Ouroboros). This vision, he said, came to him after years of studying the nature of carbon-carbon bonds. This was 20 years after he had solved the problem of how carbon atoms could bond to up to four other atoms at the same time. It is curious that a similar humorous depiction of benzene had appeared in 1886 in the Berichte der Durstigen Chemischen Gesellschaft (Journal of the Thirsty Chemical Society), a parody of the Berichte der Deutschen Chemischen Gesellschaft, only the parody had monkeys seizing each other in a circle, rather than snakes as in Kekulé's anecdote.[7] Some historians have suggested that the parody was a lampoon of the snake anecdote, possibly already well-known through oral transmission even if it had not yet appeared in print.[1] Others have speculated that Kekulé's story in 1890 was a re-parody of the monkey spoof, and was a mere invention rather than a recollection of an event in his life.


That was from Wikipedia. There is another article here that speaks in a little more detail about his "dream inspiration".

A dream also inspired Rene Descartes. Still, neither he nor Kekule is remembered as an exemplary spiritualist. History has very clearly deified women and men for the fields they excelled in; mathematicians and philosophers were praised as such, and those deemed spiritual teachers were similarly praised -- or mostly executed.

Science and spirituality were once treated along the same lines: Priests also doubled as doctors and scientists, a long time ago. Alchemy - futile quest or not - sought to discover the esoteric through scientific experiments.. unless I have that wrong.

In any case, I'm not arguing against spirituality here. I'm also not arguing for science. I'm here for my own reasons
In the event that I misunderstood your post, could you please clarify what you were getting at?



posted on Aug, 9 2007 @ 10:08 PM
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You're mixing apples and oranges.

Science explains why things work the way they do.

Spirituality gives it all meaning.

Yes, science does understand electricity. They harnessed it, put it into little wires and ran it into your living room so that you can read the words I type.

Science and spirituality are two totally different things.

Science is the understanding that there is a cause and effect to everything that happens around us, The universe we live in is based upon certain laws such as gravity, time and matter.

Spirituality on the other hand is the higher idea that it all means something. We are not just a moment of nothingness that goes away when our time has passed.

Science teaches us what is, Spirituality teaches us what we may become, or what we are.

Perhaps something higher than what we can even imagine.

Love and light,

wupy



posted on Aug, 9 2007 @ 10:25 PM
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Science may have harnessed electricity, but do they know what it is?

The perfect merger between Science and Spirituality is the same as finding the perfect mix between light and darkness, as, ultimately, they will always be trying to overcome each other.

The thought comes to mind that if Science had never been an issue, wouldn't we all be alot happier knowing advanced weapons systems and spy sattelites didn't exist.

Perhaps quality of life has been improved through science, but the struggle that is life to those who live in subsistance is nothing to the unhappiness and mental depravity that every other self-affirming MEDC grants its people. I blame Science, tbh, for granting us enough free-will to be lazy...

The 'laws' of gravity, time and others are explained on par with God's laws, but isn't 'gravity' and unrecognisable force, and 'time' a method of measuring the duration of our existance?

Happiness or Convienience, what will it be?

comment back me hearties! Moy!



posted on Aug, 10 2007 @ 09:24 AM
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I couldn't stay quiet on this one.

In my opinion, reliance upon science and technology brings a disconnect with nature. Hence, a detachment from spirituality. Being in these cushy comfy modern societies have not improved our lives in a spiritual sense in any way. Allow me to make my case.

#1 We are surrounded by artficial things. Contraptions of our own design. If we are deprived of our technology, our music, our games, our internet, phone, etc, would it not ruin our day? How about refridgeration, heat, a/c? If there was a sudden loss of power, how many of us would be dead within a month? Beyond that, if placed in a wilderness setting, how many of us could survive a month on our own? I'm betting, not too many. This is what exclusion from nature does to us. Exclusion from nature removes us from our own natural spiritual ability.

#2 Technology has us addicted to comfort. If we're not warm, or cool, or dry, we're pissed. If we stink, or are sweaty, that's a bummer! Imagine being sweaty and stinky, and cold and wet all day. What could be worse? That's about as bad as a day can be! So, we never learn to deal with these hardships, this discomfort. Without leaving our comfort zones, we cannot grow. Without having to exert effort, we will not appreciate what we have.

#3 The more modern conveniences we have, the more dependent of them we become. In those starving regions of Africa, all someone needs for it to be a good day is food and water. Not even good food. Us, we're miserable if we have to wait in traffic, if we can't find our CD we wanted to play on the ride home, we want good food several times a day, a nice comfy chair, the lights need to work, the heat/a/c needs to work. If we get wet in the process, unless it's our shower, we're pretty miserable, etc. and if the stars and moon are aligned just right, and the wife don't talk to much and she's puts out, it just might be a good day, and we might be happy that day.

#4 This instant gratification we get prevents us from really appreciating what we have. We tend to think that there's an unlimited supply of what we have, and no cute little lambsies are are killed, or no dolphins are caught in nets and gutted alive in Japan for our tuna industry. Everything our world revolves around is a given. We don't have to expend any effort, someone else does. This is not the nature order.

#5 We are beings designed and created from nature. Yet we're sick all the time. This is by far the most medicated generation in the history of the world. The reason being, first and foremost, our diets suck. The chicken we get at burger king, it's 8 % chicken. what the hell is the rest? The guacamole we get from TGIFridays is made from red #7 and green #3. Yet we think it's awesome. Very little we consume is made from nature, which is what we were designed to operate on. The majority of our diet comes from a box, bag, can, or fast food. Very little of that is what we were designed to live off of. Besides that, all of the convenience makes us inactive. The nations(particularly the us) are becoming fatter, and weaker. Instead of our kids playing football in the cold, wet, dirty field, how many opt to play Madden? Without physical activity, and exposure to nature, our immune systems become weaker. Then we load up on the chemicals we get from the Doctor, who has basically become a pill-pusher for big pharmaceuticals. Again, more stuff we were never designed to consume. So, of course, we're a weak, unhealthy people. Because of this, we do not operate at our maximum potential, and when that happens, we are out of balance, physically, mentally, emotionally, and hence out of touch with spirit.

#6 Our conditioned gratification has us on a rush rush schedule. Many of us get up, go to work, rush around all day, come home, and then sit down on our asses infront of the tv until it's time to go to bed all over again. How much more spiritual could our lives be? Life is the hurried pursuit of money. We take a vacation, and guess what? We worry about deadlines, and the job, and we rush rush rush to see everything, but we miss the true splendor of nature that's right before us. This is not the natural way. This is not spiritual. This is quick and easy. This is soul enslavement, and detachment from our divine nature. Yet this is the bets most of us can attain in our day. We just hope nothing interupts our schedule and cuts into tv time.

I could go on and on, but you get the idea. I am not entirely opposed to science. I enjoy our means of travel, the easy exchange of information, the surgical removal of foreign bodies when we hurt ourselves. I'm all for that stuff, however, so many of our conveniences come at a cost.

Not for one moment a day are we happy. We are not present at all. We're constantly full of worry, and rushing around, concerned about bills and deadlines, and all of the things society holds over us. How much of your life have you truely enjoyed? I'd wager but a small fraction of the time you were miserable. Ever wonder why? The detachment from your true nature.

In essence, science tries to accomplish what spirituality does. Science sets out to discover what is unknown. It labels things, likes properties, and characteristics. But in terms of spirituality, it's very new. It's in it's infancy. However, the very way science goes about doing things at this moment, causes people to tune away from spirituality as barbaric witchie hodge-podge. They confuse spirituality from the dogmatic systems of control known as religion which most of them grew up with, and were unsatisfied by. Science is now pushing us further and further away from nature, and further away from spirituality.

I have to agree when jimjamjerry said "science is the new religion." Indeed, science is the latest method of seperation from the nature order, and true spirituality. There may be a day when it replaces all of the organized power mongoring. When we become even less physically active, when we become even more devout in our pursuit of labels, data and equations. By that time, we'll become morally neutral, naturally excluded, and technologically dependent, like the greys that people seem to like to talk about so much. Science is the unbalanced pursuit of one area of ourselves..This unbalanced pursuit will transform us, essentially, into the things that go bump in the night. The alien greys.



posted on Aug, 10 2007 @ 01:58 PM
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So in synopsis of what I think The Swordsman said there, is that science is causing us to become the very type of beings we fear...

Anyone to counter? Or is the point made?



posted on Aug, 10 2007 @ 02:02 PM
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Originally posted by mrwupy

Science and spirituality are two totally different things.



That is the hardest thing to get people to understand... People try to use science to disprove a spiritual matter. How? I have never seen anything from science that has discouraged any of my spiritual beliefs. Nothing.



posted on Aug, 10 2007 @ 09:14 PM
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I also think that this argument is an apples to oranges thing. However, If I had to choose between having science or religion, I would personally choose science. I would rather live in a godless world with air conditioning, TV, and my computer, than one with a god where I am living in a cave.

By the way, electricity is very well understood. Otherwise, how could we harness it to do so many things for us?



posted on Aug, 11 2007 @ 08:48 AM
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Originally posted by wswbkbroiler
I also think that this argument is an apples to oranges thing. However, If I had to choose between having science or religion, I would personally choose science. I would rather live in a godless world with air conditioning, TV, and my computer, than one with a god where I am living in a cave.

By the way, electricity is very well understood. Otherwise, how could we harness it to do so many things for us?


First, science would indeed keep you safe and warm, but if the power cut out, like Swordsman said, you would be buggered bigtime. I'd rather live in happiness and in subsistance.

And secondly, I know that elctricity is 'understood', but that doesn't mean its not a phenomenon in its own right, because we don't know what it actually is. For all we know, it could have its own consciousness...

This is exactly what I'm saying... Science keeps a veil over peoples' eyes and causes their curiosity to be shot to hell... Its exactly the same as a scientist saying, 'Oh, that UFO you saw, yeah, that was swamp gas.', Whereas if you were there, you'd say, ' Swamp gas my arse...'




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