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San Diego Firefighters Forced To Attend Gay Pride Parade

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posted on Aug, 14 2007 @ 02:08 AM
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Originally posted by Griff

Originally posted by jsobecky
Sexual harassment. The antagonists just happen to be gay.


Would you be singing the same tune if the sexual harrassment was towards gay firemen at Mardi Gras?

I don't know. I never thought of Mardi Gras as the celebration of a certain sexual lifestyle. I always though anything goes?


Originally posted by Griff
BTW, the CHARGE is sexual harrassment. The VERDICT of sexual harrassment is for a court to decide.

Uhhh, yeah.
We're not judge or jury here; we're just a group of people trying to understand.


Originally posted by Griff
What was their excuse to not want to work that day? Oh, that's right, homophobia. Because being around gay people is more cause of alarm than pulling burning and dead children from houses.

I know this is going to come across as cold or unfeeling, even though it's not intended that way, but..

So what? So what if you're right, and they really are hompohobic? How are you going to change that?

And more importantly, why would you want to change that?

I have to ask a question. I need to understand something about gays.

Why is it that it is so important for you to have people love you, and accept your lifestyle? I thought you people were tougher than that. I hear so many cries of "Homophobia! Crybaby firemen!" It seems you'd only be happy if they fully accepted you for what you are, and embraced your diversity.

Man, that's not life. That's not going to happen. Some people really hate gays. And some gay guys really hate women. And some people don't have a sex drive at all.

Why can't you just go about your business without complaining because someone else doesn't share your attitude?

Look at both sides of the mirror. These guys don't appreciate being taunted by gays. And I'm sure you wouldn't like it if people publicly mocked your gayness. But you see nothing wrong with calling the firemen "Crybaby homophobes" and all the while thinking of yourself as "Enlightened progressives". Can't you see the hypocrisy in your thinking?




posted on Aug, 14 2007 @ 02:45 AM
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Originally posted by ubermunche

What I mean is that the sexual instinct is one of the strongest. Society has never accepted homosexuality 100%, and it never will, simply because of the strength of that instinct.

It will be tolerated to varying levels of degrees, but never accepted.


Well we don’t really want a society that is run in tandem with our base instincts because then thievery, rape and murder along with a host of other afflictions like slavery, bullying, become the sanctioned norm. It’s a specious argument

But our society does not run in tandem with our base instincts, does it? We have laws which are designed to make society run more smoothly. Joe Smith cannot refuse to rent you a house, or seat you at his restaurant, because you are gay. That's all you can ask. For you to demand that people change their minds is unrealistic.



Originally posted by ubermunche
Society is accepting of it now for the simple fact it’s been decriminalised. You can’t pick out the knee jerk reaction of some misinformed or bigoted group of individuals and parade that as the norm

Society does indeed set it's own standards of decency. And the "norm" will outweigh any bigoted group.


Originally posted by ubermunche
The main reason people still feel uncomfortable of gay people is through complete ignorance or being indoctrinated with a certain view point about what and who gay people are.

You're downplaying the role of instinct.


Originally posted by ubermunche
Strange how the more enlightened we become as a society, getting rid of things like child brides, emancipation and empowerment, the more accepting it becomes of Homosexuality. I think that’s a reason for celebration.

Well, good. I'm glad you have something to celebrate. Being a straight man, however, I must say that I just don't understand gays. I just don't get the whole idea of celebrating your sexuality. I mean, when I hear of gay parades, I always end up asking myself - why? It just seems like there is so much more to life, and so many other things to do that demand my time, that marching in a parade that celebrates what I do with my genitals ranks way down on my list of priorities.


Finally, I want to say that I would not want to see a society that treats you illegally because of your sexual preference. If you were being subjected to sexual harassment, I'd fight for you. And that is why I can see the case these firefighters are trying to make.



posted on Aug, 14 2007 @ 07:11 AM
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Originally posted by jsobecky
I don't know. I never thought of Mardi Gras as the celebration of a certain sexual lifestyle. I always though anything goes?


Might be.


So what? So what if you're right, and they really are hompohobic? How are you going to change that?


The point is not their homophobia. The point is, they were ordered to do the job. They did it and turned around and called harrassment. But, I guess we can pick and choose who we serve?


Why is it that it is so important for you to have people love you, and accept your lifestyle?


What does doing your job have to do with accepting the lifestyle?



I thought you people were tougher than that.


Just an FYI. It's never good to say "you people" when talking about things of this nature. Blacks don't like it. Christians don't like it. etc. etc.


Why can't you just go about your business without complaining because someone else doesn't share your attitude?


Haven't we been saying this of the firemen all along?


But you see nothing wrong with calling the firemen "Crybaby homophobes" and all the while thinking of yourself as "Enlightened progressives". Can't you see the hypocrisy in your thinking?


Show me once in this thread were I have called them any names. BTW, what the hell is an "enlightened progressive"?



posted on Aug, 14 2007 @ 09:00 AM
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Originally posted by jsobecky
I don't know. I never thought of Mardi Gras as the celebration of a certain sexual lifestyle. I always though anything goes?


^^^^^^^i thought they were complaining cause they were harassed and couldn't handle that...it's possible at mardi gras as well but at mardi gras you got chicks showing the bedlums so, hey, it's fine....

I know this is going to come across as cold or unfeeling, even though it's not intended that way, but..

So what? So what if you're right, and they really are hompohobic? How are you going to change that?

^^^we probably can't. thing is, as you said, we're just people talking here. it says a lot about a person when they are so friggin scared of 'the gays' that they have to brng up a suit.
the homosexuals get demonized with things like "these fireman are loving husbands and fathers", implying that it is above them to go to such a march....basically, it's just crappy....it also says a lot about a person when you're more bunged up at gey people than raging fires or dead bodies.

And more importantly, why would you want to change that?

^^^^^gee, i can't imgaine why it would be a good thing if people stopped hating other people cause of their sexual orientation....



Why is it that it is so important for you to have people love you, and accept your lifestyle?

^^^^i'm not gay but i would guess if their lifestyle was accepted, they would not be discriminated against(as much) and then hopefully that would lead to them gaining the same rights as hetero's have......

I thought you people were tougher than that. I hear so many cries of "Homophobia! Crybaby firemen!"

^^^^i'm the one calling them homophobes and crybaby's...i'm also not gay so what group of 'you people' you gonna lump me into now?

Man, that's not life. That's not going to happen. Some people really hate gays. And some gay guys really hate women. And some people don't have a sex drive at all.

^^^how many people do you hate?

Why can't you just go about your business without complaining because someone else doesn't share your attitude?

^^^^ask the fireman that



i don't see the hypocracy at all.
they didn't enjoy being mocked...well, good thing when they are not on the job they don't have to attend....

whole lots crap i didn't enjoy at work.....thats why it's called work though ya know



posted on Aug, 14 2007 @ 09:43 AM
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To : jsobecky
I have been following this story locally and I can tell you it reeks of
mischief. Just this morning I watched an interview with one of the
firefighters, a Captain no less. He sat there with his eloquent moustache
that looked like something out of the twenties and related how stressed
out he was from all of this. He said he was close to retirement and had
never experienced this kind of stress before. What a crybaby!

And yes, some of us have indeed called these firefighters names. I know
I have. Wamby-pambies for one. Lightweights for another. Maybe they're
looking to add another little perk onto their retirement payments by
taking the city for a ride in a frivilous lawsuit. They are taking advantage
of a legal system run amok with personal-injury lawsuits that cater to
the stressed-out, sue-happy, revenge-seeking non-hackers.

For fifteen years the fire department assisted with the parade. But this
year must've pushed them over the edge. Good thing they don't get
stressed out on the way to a fire. They may never show up.



posted on Aug, 14 2007 @ 10:05 AM
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Originally posted by SIEGE
For fifteen years the fire department assisted with the parade.


Have they been a part of the parade before? Or is this the first time they had to parade?



posted on Aug, 14 2007 @ 10:27 AM
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Originally posted by Griff

Originally posted by jsobecky
So what? So what if you're right, and they really are hompohobic? How are you going to change that?


The point is not their homophobia. The point is, they were ordered to do the job. They did it and turned around and called harrassment. But, I guess we can pick and choose who we serve?

This is not the first time that this city has had problems like this; read the complaint for details. So the city was on advance notice for potential issues. And even though the firefighters offered an alternative solution, i.e., using volunteers from another company, they were turned down and forced to participate. The super wanted to play hardass and show them who was boss.



Originally posted by jsobecky

Originally posted by Griff
Why is it that it is so important for you to have people love you, and accept your lifestyle?


What does doing your job have to do with accepting the lifestyle?

This is what I mean. Nothing can be accomplished as long as the questions are dodged. But to answer your question, one has nothing to do with the other. The mark of a professional is one who can separate his/her personal feelings from his/her job duties. For example, a surgeon operating on a patient.

But that same relationship does not apply to their social lives. And regardless of what you think, this was not part of the firemen's job to attend a sexually-oriented parade.


Originally posted by Griff
Just an FYI. It's never good to say "you people" when talking about things of this nature. Blacks don't like it. Christians don't like it. etc. etc.

Believe me, I know that. Probably no group gets tagged with labels like that, as well as "of your ilk", more than I do, a white conservative male. So, I don't like it, either.



Originally posted by jsobecky
Why can't you just go about your business without complaining because someone else doesn't share your attitude?

Originally posted by Griff
Haven't we been saying this of the firemen all along?

Yes, you have. But I don't see the firemen wanting you to attend their parades, or calling you heterophobes because you decline.

The firemen are more than willing to let you go about your business. You, however, defend the person who wants to take that same right away from them.



Originally posted by Griff
Show me once in this thread were I have called them any names.

No, you haven't been calling them names, much to your credit. I can't say the same for others, who do it with nearly every post they make. It's come to the point where I don't even address their posts anymore, it gets so tedious.


Originally posted by Griff
BTW, what the hell is an "enlightened progressive"?

Something I made up. It sounded good at the time.



posted on Aug, 14 2007 @ 10:36 AM
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Originally posted by jsobecky
And regardless of what you think, this was not part of the firemen's job to attend a sexually-oriented parade.


Then why the order from the supperiors? If it was voluntary, then this would never have happened. And yes, she was probably being a hard ass. So what?



Yes, you have. But I don't see the firemen wanting you to attend their parades, or calling you heterophobes because you decline.


This goes back to: Were they there to just attend the parade or were they there as their job function. As far as I'm aware, it was their job function? I could be wrong but that is what the heart of the matter is.


The firemen are more than willing to let you go about your business. You, however, defend the person who wants to take that same right away from them.


Not if they were there as their job function. Please show proof that this is not part of their job function and I will agree with you 100%.



posted on Aug, 14 2007 @ 10:49 AM
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Originally posted by jsobecky
And even though the firefighters offered an alternative solution, i.e., using volunteers from another company, they were turned down and forced to participate. The super wanted to play hardass and show them who was boss.




well, the super is the boss correct?
just cause your employees offer a suggestion or an alternative solution does not mean the super had to follo their request.

so the super wanted to play hardass? so....
benefits of being the boss i guess.

the fireman tried to get out of it and probably assumed that as soon as they requested not to go that the super would cave. the super didn't cave, they went(as per their job orders) and go so bunged up and upset at the 'horrors' they saw, they decided to bring up a suit.
now it's going to take months and thousands of dollars all cause a couple of fireman were babies about a march...

i mean, how do adults let themselves get so booty hurt over stuff like this?
oh my, there is a guy over there in spandex whistling at me....better go cry.
such a load....this whole deal



posted on Aug, 14 2007 @ 10:52 AM
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Originally posted by Griff
Please show proof that this is not part of their job function and I will agree with you 100%.


what we need is the complete and entire san diego fire department manuel...then maybe we can tell if it was part of their job function.
i have asked for this bit of info from our resident subject matter expert in this thread, but i am yet to get it..

have people not here ever read through their employee handbook or whatever? damn near all of them give you specific functions of your job, and damn near all of them also include little snippets that cover them...things like "or whatever the super deems necesary"...you know, to cover things like this....



posted on Aug, 14 2007 @ 11:05 AM
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Originally posted by Griff
This goes back to: Were they there to just attend the parade or were they there as their job function. As far as I'm aware, it was their job function? I could be wrong but that is what the heart of the matter is.


The firemen are more than willing to let you go about your business. You, however, defend the person who wants to take that same right away from them.


Not if they were there as their job function. Please show proof that this is not part of their job function and I will agree with you 100%.

OK, as long as we can agree with a few ground rules. Such as, the phrase "and all other duties as necessary" which is a blanket statement found in almost everybody's job description, cannot be used as basis for this order.

Another thing we need to agree on is why they were there. Were they there in a safety capacity, or as a goodwill capacity?

I'm willing to take up this challenge, despite the fact that you have put me at a logical disadvantage, i.e.' proving a negative.


Edit to add: if the firefighters were told to go to the parade to provide a safety function (similar to standing by at a fireworks display or a bonfire rally), and refused, then I would change my position to include calling for their immediate dismissal. The fact that this has not been done, however, seems to strengthen my case.

[edit on 14-8-2007 by jsobecky]



posted on Aug, 14 2007 @ 11:39 AM
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Originally posted by jsobecky
The fact that this has not been done, however, seems to strengthen my case.


The fact that they were ordered by their superior strengthens ours. I say we agree to disagree until we found out more.



posted on Aug, 14 2007 @ 11:44 AM
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Originally posted by jsobecky
Such as, the phrase "and all other duties as necessary" which is a blanket statement found in almost everybody's job description, cannot be used as basis for this order.



can you tell me why you feel this can not be used as a basis for this order?
you admit that a phrase like that or similar to that is found in almost all job descriptions....so again, if it is found in their job description, what exactly is the problem?

please and thanks

do you think that in this mans time spent as a fireman, that he has been asked to perform one of these 'other' duties before?
thats all this is...another part of the job, since the super told em to go.

seems pretty cut and dry to me



posted on Aug, 14 2007 @ 11:53 AM
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So what's in a parade? Marchers, of course. Floats? Bands? Vintage cars?
Police cars? Firetrucks? They were there because for the last fifteen years
the fire department has committed to it, as a good-will community
gesture. Not as a political showing. When not enough volunteers were
available from this station, the boss did what most good bosses would do
in similar situations, - she ordered the "duty" crew to support the local
community function as they had in the past. Why should she have to go
to other stations outside the community to get volunteers? She shouldn't
have to. It was her community, her station, and she got the job done.
Too bad she had these lightweights working for her who no way in hell
really endeavored to carry out her orders. They got angry. They got
super-stressed out. (Whaaaa!) And now they're getting even.

jsobecky : I don't agree with you at all on this because I suffer from
common-sense . . .itis. But I like the way you hang in there and fight for
your way of seeing things. If we were picking representatives here,
everyday representatives from ATS who can fight, I'd pick you because
I think you're a trooper.



posted on Aug, 14 2007 @ 12:43 PM
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Originally posted by SIEGE

jsobecky : I don't agree with you at all on this because I suffer from
common-sense . . .itis. But I like the way you hang in there and fight for
your way of seeing things. If we were picking representatives here,
everyday representatives from ATS who can fight, I'd pick you because
I think you're a trooper.

i trimmed this but i agree with all of what you're saying.

i still don't see how anyone can defend these guys. they were on duty, told to go by the boss and thats it.
this damn thing should get tossed out.

tellin ya. they assumed that asking would guarantee them a "you don't have to go".
they got ticked when they were told to go and then when their good buds started making fun of them, the loving husbands, father, and CRYBABIES couldn't handle it so they bring up a suit.

pretty clear to me



posted on Aug, 14 2007 @ 01:52 PM
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To me, you are all missing the key points here.

The firefighters don't want to participate in the gay parade because they are concerned that it will make it seem to others that they approve of and promote a lifestyle they clearly do not. The same reason most would not want to drive their trucks in a KKK parade - because it would make them appear to be supporters of a cause they do not agree with. Not saying, of course, that gays=KKK, just that the strength of the feelings against both beliefs seem to be on about the same level. Is there any way someone could force you to change your beliefs to be positive on the KKK? No? Well, that's what your also dealing with on the gay issue. No one is going to force anyone else beliefs to change. It just doesn't work that way.

The city and their boss quite clearly have the opposite agenda. They are trying to make it appear that the entire fire department supports the gay parade (when obviously these people don't) by forcing them to be a part of it. Basically boils down to a PR stunt by the city and their superior that these firemen do not want to participate in.

Curious how their offer to let substitutes ride in their place was turned down. Why? Which takes us back to the agenda of their boss and the city to pull of this false PR display.

The simple solution that would have avoided all this would simply have been to ask for volunteers to be in the parade. But no, the boss chose to draw a line in the sand instead of compromising.

Sad.



posted on Aug, 14 2007 @ 01:59 PM
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Originally posted by centurion1211
But no, the boss chose to draw a line in the sand instead of compromising.


Which was her right as commanding officer to do. I'm not saying I agree with her decision to do this.



posted on Aug, 14 2007 @ 02:16 PM
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Originally posted by Griff

Originally posted by centurion1211
But no, the boss chose to draw a line in the sand instead of compromising.


Which was her right as commanding officer to do. I'm not saying I agree with her decision to do this.


Perhaps. At least it is her right to do so, right up to the moment one of her superiors decides the city didn't need the grief brought down on them by her decision process, or a court decides for the firemen. Of course, if that were to happen, the first one screaming "homophobe", would be the boss that started the whole mess with her desire to create a confrontation in an ill-conceived attempt to further her cause.



posted on Aug, 14 2007 @ 05:04 PM
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the kkk kinda promotes hate as well.
gay marches do not.
there IS a difference.



posted on Aug, 14 2007 @ 06:15 PM
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Originally posted by Boondock78
the kkk kinda promotes hate as well.
gay marches do not.
there IS a difference.



You missed the point entirely.

I could have picked any radical group, but chose the KKK because I thought most posters would say "no way!" to the thought of marching in their hypothetical parade, and thus be able to perhaps imagine that some people might have similarly strong feelings about marching in a gay parade.

And as a side note, I lived in the SF Bay Area for 15 years and can tell you that gays - especially the more radical ones - are hardly just about peace and love. They are fully capable of doing and saying some pretty "hateful" things to any who don't want to accept their vision of the world. Of course many people there silently look the other way when something like that goes down in fear of having the finger pointed at them with the "homophobe!" cry ringing in their ears. Kind of reminded me of those scenes from Invasion of the Body Snatchers when the aliens would spot someone that hadn't been "snatched". The aliens would point and scream ...



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