Why are the Iraqi people so stupid?

Common sense would tell any Iraqi citizen with a brain that if you just step back and act like you are ok with the current situation, it will be over a lot faster. The US will rebuild your country stronger and better, your country will become the $600 billion dollar country. It will be modern, well designed and the US will just give it back to you. Then if you understand your history you can eventually dominate us Economically like the Japanese did, and do.

In this modern world no one... I repead NO ONE can stop us from crushing you on a military scale if we set our mind to it. This is why you have to change tactics.

Killing our soldiers who believe they are there to help you, not to hurt you just slows down your process to economically crush us.

What I can't really understand is why the Puppet Master of the bombers is soo stupid they can't understand this. Look at Germany, even they eventually restored after all they have done. The country is rebuilt and is one of the world Science and Chemical leaders. Eventually they will be able to put their thumb on our neck economically.

What do you people think? Am I right? Do you agree? Think I'm full of it?

Well.. Here is the way that I see it. There was a great change in that whole region centuries ago. Hell, some of the most successful civilizations that ever existed, existed in the Middle eastern region.

However, over the centuries, the region has been over run by a bunch of fanatics. They train their children to be fanatical. Their children train their own children to be fanatical. It's a never ending cycle.

Certainly you can't expect a group of people who have known nothing other than war for the last 5000 years to just wake up one day and say, "Hey, let's all change our ways." It isn't going to happen.

Its just not a natural instinct not to fight when you feel threatened.
If an Iraqi feels that we are there in his best interest, he probably won't fight, but once he's made up his mind that we are there for our benefit, regardless of his interests, it's only natural to resist.

Let's analogize

Suppose that the political situation in America became so unstable that widepread violence broke out. Not even a civil war in the classical sense so much as series of regional melees.

And then the Europeans show up on a peace keeping mission, and set up an interim government full of Americans who left this country during the Vietnam war and haven't been on American soil since. And the first thing this government does is raftify the Kyoto Treaty, contract the right to run our carbon exchange market to France, and start gutting our economy so that our companies will sell their carbon allotments under Kyoto to European nations.

And while they're doing this, you're living in Los Angeles, and they can't seem to find a way to stop the crips and MS-13 from ripping your fair city apart around you. Your son gets shot by an over-stressed European soldier who thought he saw something he didn't, and your father's shop is put out of business by looters, and nobody is listening to you or interested in helping you because all of the European efforts are concentrated in the green zone down town where the banks are.

Everything you love seems threatened, it appears that your country is being taken advantage of, and their are foreign troops on your soil.

Now perhaps it is true that if you would just keep your cool and let this pass, 20 years from now America will be back on top because of our resources and the ingenuity of our people. But it looks like the occupiers have no intention of letting that happen, and you've got too many problems in the here and now to be thinking 20 years down the road.

If I was in a situation like that, bet your hat that I'd be shot dead within the week, and I wouldn't regret it as long as I took 10 of them with me.


My point is, for a country run by businessmen, America showed an incredible lack of business sense in dealing with the Iraqi people. I thought everyone knew that if you want something from somebody, the best way to make sure you get it is to offer them something that they want in exchange.

We're swimming in stuff the Iraqi people would probably really like to have.
We have advances to offer them in agriculture, in civil engineering, in law enforcement, in medical care, etc etc etc. With more money, more manpower, and a little contribution of expertise, we could have made working with America seem like a dang good idea to the Iraqi people.

But when we showed up, there were disruptions in food shipments inside Iraq, there was a crime wave, and we were securing for ourselves far more than we were delivering to them.

What would we give to have that to do over again...

I do not think that the Iraqi people are stupid and I think one of the major areas is our general ignorant of the arab/muslim culture.

we went in to Iraq without a clear idea of what to do once we had changed the leadership and left a power vacuum that was filled with thoses who had an agenda against America and its allies.

I think The Vagabond has got it right with his example of how this might be seen if it was the US.

Shockingly, I am not sure if we can turn the situation around in Iraq?

Originally posted by Freedom ERP


Shockingly, I am not sure if we can turn the situation around in Iraq?

There is really no good answer for Iraq. If we stay, most likely there is going to continue to be chaos. If we leave, whatever good we have done there will be all for naught because it will collapse within weeks.

I'm quite confident that I could have Iraq stable in 10 years, and a first world country and NATO member in 30.

I'll need $20 Trillion spent over 10 years, 1.5 million US troops on a 4 year commitment, absolute control over the departments of State and Defense, and George Bush will probably have to perform a few sexual favors to get India and the Arab League to go along with my plan...

It's a standing offer. My numbers in the phone book. Let me know.

Originally posted by The Vagabond

I'll need $20 Trillion spent over 10 years, 1.5 million US troops on a 4 year commitment, absolute control over the departments of State and Defense,

The U.S only has 2.6 million troops all services combined. As far as personnel goes, the U.S military is not very large.

To answer the original question... The Iraqi people are not stupid.

Why are you so western-centric?

If you think the Iraqi people are stupid, than it is you who misunderstands them.

That is the essence of the problem with our engagement with the middle east. When we deal with them, we inevitably project our western world view onto them. And it never works. History (thanks to the Brits, namely) have taught us this; or for anyone willing to educate themselves in it.

We are not raised the way they are. Therefore, our way of doing/seeing things will never fly there.

The sooner we realize and accept that, the sooner things will improve.

Originally posted by The Vagabond
I'm quite confident that I could have Iraq stable in 10 years, and a first world country and NATO member in 30.

No western power could tame Vietnam through 20+ years of violent engagement. If the people are not willing, it will never hapen. Iraq is a carbon copy.

As much as I respect you Vagabond, I absolutely disagree that you or we could make that happen. It is far to late. Maybe wecould have, if we had gone in with at least 500,000 troops and a eal plan for stabilzation. But we didn't, and now it is living chaos.

No cramming the genie back in the bottle (literally).

1. I know the US isn't large enough (by the by we would dang near have to double our budget to do that too). That's pretty much the point- it's not practically possible.

But make no mistake, if you had 3 wishes, you could almost certainly conjure a big enough hammer to force the djinni back into the bottle. (i always preferred that spelling, don't know why).

I say 1.5 million because that's what it would take (on the low end, if you spent a grip of cash on all the right technology) to seal off the borders and then systematically force the evacuation of Iraqi cities and search them house to house for weapons caches, considering any stragglers hostile, and using the temporary evacuations as a chance to process and ID every single Iraqi.

Once you'd completed that herculean task, everyone's gonna want to fight but have nothing to fight with, and you begin spending trillions of dollars on massive public works projects to radically upgrade their quality of living so that you can eventually say, 'see, that was rough, but now we've gotten to the good part". People will take a while to calm down, and then they'll get preoccupied with work and money and luxuries- it works great on Americans.

After a generation, of unprecedent excess, and nobody having the means to start a serious fight with you, the cultural imperialism is complete.

Granted its a distasteful, cynical plan which starts with human rights violations and ends with a sickening lack of respect for foreign cultures, but it's second only to the methods of Genghis Kahn in terms of likely effectiveness.

But I don't endorse that plan. I'm just making the point for those who still believe in this war that yes, its winnable (because they tend to stop listening and assume you're full of it if you don't concede that- I would know, i used to be one of them, back in the day) but the costs, both morally and materially, are completely prohibitive.

Originally posted by The Vagabond
1. I know the US isn't large enough (by the by we would dang near have to double our budget to do that too). That's pretty much the point- it's not practically possible.

Oh, the U.S is large enough to have 10-15 million troops, but the fact is, it doesn't.

Why Iraqis Fight

A. Themselves…
1. One of the first acts of the coalition was to abolish the Iraqi Police force. Not only did this set of large scale looting (like what happened immediately in New Orleans following Katrina when they didn’t have a police force for oh about weeks) but it is caused Iraqi civilians to set up neighbourhood protection groups. I.e. ordinary people trying to keep their homes safe from burglars, yobs and that sort.
2. A significant portion of the Iraqi people believes in forcing other Iraqis to comply with “Islam” this is common throughout the Arab world.
However under secular-pragmatic thinking Saddam these nuts where executed for conspiracy to cause religious violence, and were efficiently gathered by the Iraqi secret police.
With this now abolished under the coalition many fundamentalists took the opportunity to try to force other Iraqis to comply with Islam. They’ve done outrages things like disembowel (most often) Sunni women for “crimes” like wearing Western clothing. Yet the fundamentalists felt confident especially as can turn to their tribes where they can find at least some support.
3. The secular Iraqis (both Sunni and Shiite) did not like being made (out of fear) to turn up to Mosque 3 or even 5 times a day. They did not like women having to wear the veil out of fear, they did didn’t like it when people started disappearing for doing nothing wrong other than to follow a moderately different version of Islam.
4. So they retaliated. You try forcing me to turn up to Mosque? Fine I will (until I blow it up). You kidnap my grandfather for being Sunni, fine we’ll kidnap one of yours.
5. The Fundamentalists retaliated with further kidnappings and even Mosque bombings.
6. Today in Iraq if you do not join a neighbourhood protection group then that neighbourhood protection group will kick you and your family out of your house. They say if you cannot as a man help bring protection to your people then you do not deserve the security living with you’re people brings.
7. Peace between different neighbourhood groups is kept by retaliating against the crimes of the other, until some sort of truce-understanding is formed. At every turn the pawns in this are innocent civilians. The neighbourhood protection groups have become extremely politicised because obviously they want to retaliate against the fundamentalists, but because the fundamentalists can seek refuge in their tribes (many of whom are often not fundamentalist) people want to retaliate against the tribe that fundamentalists seek refuge in. It is almost impossible for an individual in one of these tribes (who does not agree with giving fundamentalists protection) to have this opinion enacted because that puts his life at risk, and besides they have their own power structures, and it’s immensely difficult to work out which brother of who (the boss?) is actually a fundamentalist. How do you define who is and isn’t a fundamentalist without not knowing exactly what they’re doing, and even if you do know what they’re doing how do you express an opinion against these people (who also claim to be protectors) and stay alive? Easy don’t express an opinion.

B. Why They Fight Us…
1. One of the first things we did was to kick the Bath party out of power, and to ban anyone who had been a member of the bath party from gaining employment. This is like banning anyone who was a member of the communist party in Russia from gaining meaningful employment. It didn’t matter if you agreed with it or not, everyone who was somebody was a member of the Ba’th party, that’s how you get by in a dictatorship.
2. Most of these people are Sunni (because Saddam was Sunni). Yet ironically the Sunnis are the most secular group in Iraq, i.e. almost all do no not object to women wearing western clothing, drinking alcohol, working 8 hours a day (that kind of thing). However because we had just kicked these people out of power, banned the upper class from proper work because of they’re party membership, these people decided they wanted Saddam back, and they wanted us out “for an illegal invasion”. This happened on about day one.
3. They quickly sided with Al Quada. Why’s that? Why do western educated secular people open to a western standard of living join a fundamentalist organisation? There are two reasons: Firstly a small minority of Sunnis are not Secular at all (which is better than the Shiite where most are fundamentalist), and secondly “an enemy of my enemy is friend of mine” (logic).
4. Some Sunnis went about to create trouble between Iraqis as they figured that however bloody the current civil war would create the conditions that make our presence in Iraq totally unworthy (if not counter productive). So far this strategy has worked, e.g. they say we came there for oil, but if our troops try to repair something it’s only a matter of time until a rival tribe destroys it. This is the effect of civil war, and why it benefits those who want us out.
5. The vast majority of Iraqis (on both sides) now remember their lives being better of under Saddam. They didn’t have political freedom then, but they don’t really have it now as the opinion that might keep you alive in one sectarian controlled area of Baghdad can get you killed few road markings and streets further down.
However at least under Saddam they had security (or at least not the insecurity they have now). There wasn’t a full blown civil war going on, and the electricity, water and other things was less disrupted because of that fact.
3. Over 50% of Iraqis (mostly the Shiites who we are allied with) believe woman should be stoned to death for adultery. They would like the U.S backed “democracy” to conform but it won’t.
4. Consequently about 90% of Iraqis now want us out of Iraq
www.nytimes.com... they want the U.S backed “Iraqi democracy” to conform, yet instead it’s this democracy which is begging the U.S to be in Iraq. The reason is that if-when we do leave Iraq in its current state they know those who’ve taken part in current government will almost certainly be killed (unless they can get out of Iraq fast).
6. Even the Shiites (about 60% of Iraqis) who were prevented from practising fundamentalism under Saddam, now hate us as they blame the deterioration of the country on us (and us for not controlling the fundermentalists like Saddam did).
7. Add to that there are many reasons for Iraqis to hate us: 1991 Gulf War (many think Kuwait is there’s because it had been historically part of Iraqi territory (even though Iraq is a British Empire created country) untill the 1920’s, the U.N sanctions, the Shiite uprising Bush senior said he would support but didn’t, the bombing of the no fly zones, the 2003 invasion and anarchy it has unleashed, the Iraqi government that doesn’t represent the will of the Iraqi people (it won’t till 2009 when Iraqis can democratically kick us out).
8. Like when the British ruled India or America. It doesn’t matter how much people thought they would be better of under occupation, when at the end of the day they just want matters in they’re own hands. The want to hang the traitors who took part in our democracy government, they want to split Iraq with the Shiites creating an Iran style state, and the Sunnis having a Saddam style dictator of their choice. Only then when two All Powerful Dictators can discuss Iraqi matters in one of Saddam’s old palaces can there be peace. This won’t happen till we’re out, meanwhile it just worsens the threat we’re supposed to combat.
9. As for the Kurds: They’re the only part of Iraq that needs and welcomes U.S support as without it Turkey will crush them. From they’re own point of view they’re not really part of Iraq, but first and foremost Kurdistan. They are a completely different world, primarily because they are still ethnically-culturally pure (unlike the Shiite and Sunni parts of Iraq where everyone’s mixed).

C. Summary
So does that answer you’re question Royal76. Basically don’t join the battle and you kicked out of you’re house, or worst executed. And there are many reasons like when you’re been forced to conform to another religion why you may want to fight. As for those who force religion on other people they think they’re doing Gods work. They thought that under Saddam but at least they got imprisoned by a police that worked. (Today’s police force is all too often bunch of terrorists who’ve been given weapons by the Americans in the belief they are a police force).

Iraqis should get us out, because only then will they be allowed to have the one or two dictatorships that can give them the security against extremism they want (even the extremists want a dictatorship, but for them it’s more for a love of God). This is because as long as Iraq is a democracy extremists can always get democratically elected from somewhere. These extremist hate western democracy, and have only taken part so they can bugger it up. This is what they deliberately did to Iraq’s security forces (put fundermentalists buddies in charge who turn it into part of their own power base-terrorist network).

[edit on 090705 by Liberal1984]

IF all things being equal except that it was Saddam Hussein who invaded America and overthrew bush minor and occupied the country in an arrogant, ignorant and heavy handed manner, there would be an insurgency going on here too and mark my word there would probably be a civil war brewing as well. Whether there would be outside influences at work as well is open to debate, BUT the same sort of thing would be happening. It is the nature of populations to resent and try and overthrow occupiers.

Stop being so arrogant and read some history.... the Iraqi's aren't the stupid ones.

Now now, there's no cause for name calling grover. You were making you point just fine without the last line.

Very well vagabond I apologize so I will answer his last question... I think he is full of it.

On another subject you sig. by Oscar Wilde has always been one of my favorites. I studied Wilde extensively at one point considering writing a play about his trials.

original by Freedom ERP
I do not think that the Iraqi people are stupid and I think one of the major areas is our general ignorant of the arab/muslim culture.

we went in to Iraq without a clear idea of what to do once we had changed the leadership and left a power vacuum that was filled with thoses who had an agenda against America and its allies.

"You are Correct Sir!", as Ed McMann would say. Something Big Bush knew was that it would be teadious, and enormously expensive in lives, and $ to finish the job in the old ways. I think "Little Bush" though he could one up his dad just like all children try to out do their fathers. One thought on this on the wild side is the NWO really being behind this. Little Bush though he understood muslims with all of his oil dealings. But where he failed is that he never knew how the normal (poor) people thought before hand.

The Vagabond
I'm quite confident that I could have Iraq stable in 10 years, and a first world country and NATO member in 30.
I'll need $20 Trillion spent over 10 years, 1.5 million US troops on a 4 year commitment, absolute control over the departments of State and Defense, and George Bush will probably have to perform a few sexual favors to get India and the Arab League to go along with my plan...

I don't think $ alone will solve this. I believe their are three ways to solve this. 1. Overwhelming force with their whole country bombarded with soldiers who are there all the time, not just a few driving around in a humvee. It would end quicker but we would have to become the German's of WWII emphany. 2. Just leave. The country would turn into a pit that would sink farther into chaos and hatred that we would have to eventually turn the place into one giant sheet of glass. 3. Continue as we are. There will be fifth and sixth generations of soldiers who have served in Iraq, and our economy will either be sucked dry.

EastCoastKid
Why are you so western-centric?

If you think the Iraqi people are stupid, than it is you who misunderstands them.

That is the essence of the problem with our engagement with the middle east. When we deal with them, we inevitably project our western world view onto them. And it never works. History (thanks to the Brits, namely) have taught us this; or for anyone willing to educate themselves in it.

We are not raised the way they are. Therefore, our way of doing/seeing things will never fly there.

Yes and No, our way will work over there if they are willing to evolve into a global country like we are. You think of us as Western. I think of us as a global "Melting Pot". The United States is the UN. Our coffers are full with people from everywhere, with people of all forms of life. Yes our way is different than theirs. It has to be, their way isn't working for the "World". You would rather that we just left them alone. I see a people who weren't a part of 911, but would be apart of something in the future.

grover
Stop being so arrogant and read some history.... the Iraqi's aren't the stupid ones.

Very well vagabond I apologize so I will answer his last question... I think he is full of it.

Quote me some history Grover....I showed history by bring up our occupation of Japan, and how they are now destroying us in the new battlefield of economics. You think I'm full of it yet you have nothing to offer except whining, and name throwing.

You asked whether you were either on to something or were full of it so I just answered your question.

As for the Japanese, they are only doing what we would over there if we could. In fact there are many places, especially here in the south, that if it weren't for the local factory owned by the Japanese, there would be no jobs. In fact if you want to whine about the Japanese and Koreans and the Chinese and what they are doing to this country thank the national debt and thank the corporations who put profits first and ship our jobs overseas.

As for Iraq, they have, like many peoples a long history of occupation and a long history of opposition to that occupation. If bush minor and his advisors had paid any attention to history; say the history of the English in the 20's and 30's in that region, they would have known what was coming.

The whole assumption of your thread that the Iraqi's are somehow stupid because they don't bend over and spread em for the Americans occupying their country is deeply offensive and I am an American. I however respect other cultures besides my own and don't assume that we are always right.

You could have just as easily phrased it to read "Why are the Americans so stupid to insist on staying in Iraq when they are obviously so hated and not wanted?

Remember the Iraqi parliment has already asked us to leave twice now.

[edit on 13-8-2007 by grover]

I tend to agree with Grover - the real question ought to be "why are the American people so stupid?"

After all, we're the ones that invaded a country that hadn't attacked us, we're the ones that disbanded the only forces keeping order in the country, we're the ones that brought all this upon ourselves, not to mention the Iraqi's.

America does have a good track record for building countries eg West Germany (western Europe to some extent), Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, Israel. Compare them to countries that have opposed the US eg Russia/USSR, China, North Korea, Vietnam, Iran, Iraq, Sudan, Zimbabwe, Libya, Cuba, Venezuela.

Although, China has ditched communism over the past 15 years and copied the West. Also, if they didn't have oil, countries like Russia, Iran, Iraq, Libya, Sudan, Zimbabwe, Cuba and Venezuela probably would have collapsed like the USSR by now.

Iraqis have been held down by a dictator, and theyre religion promotes murder in the name of the universaly misperceived God.

I wonder though how many roadside bombs arent built by subversive americans, to keep the war going for another reason other than securing Iraq for future peace. Maybe like a stargate or other artifact? The military needs to clean itself of those that "shouldn't" be there. like neo nazis, psychotics given a free pass etc..
you know, the mental cases.