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Prayer, and the Divine plan Logic vs Religion

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posted on Aug, 7 2007 @ 11:13 AM
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Although I don't believe in God, I want to know the reasoning behind every Christian for their prayer. And their claims of them being answered.

I see a sad pattern around me where a lot of Christians turn to prayer, and hope of gods guiding hands to turn up in a bad situation. In my opinion this is toxic thinking. But this is because I think you are waiting around for the guidance of something that is not there.


Matthew 18:19
Again, I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven.


According to what I understand, this is about prayer, so what this says is that god will automatically help if we all just come together and pray?
Well it's what it says right? But when has this ever worked. I'm sure at church you've prayed for someone who is sick and dying, or something bad happening elsewhere in the earth. And though you think you are doing those other people good, it's really just pointless. No matter how many people pray or how many times you pray, the outcomes are always the same as if you never prayed at all.

So maybe you know what i'm talking about and you have prayed for someone, and they have died. I can guess that your response would be that it's gods divine plan, but where is it ever stated in the bible that god has a divine plan. We are all free willed beings, therefore there cannot be a plan. And if you say there is one, well then why did god plan for people to stop believing in him, and to have some brutally murdered. And some die peacefully.

If all of what is happening is part of a divine plan, then god is one messed up asshole.

Now I know not every christian believes in a divine plan, I just wanted to bring it up because it is a very mainstream belief. I have relatives that say it all the time.


Anyway, prove me wrong. So we can debate it
.




posted on Aug, 7 2007 @ 11:37 AM
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When a believer is praying for a particular event to happen, there is already a probability for that event to happen anyway.

Now if the event takes place, the will thank god for anwering their prayers and if it doesn't they will just say it wasn't god's will, so they win both ways.

In the end it's just statistics and probabilities though.



posted on Aug, 7 2007 @ 12:18 PM
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don't assume everyone that believes in god is a christian.
prayer is like meditation. real prayer should be a decision to have or realize something. god leaves it up to us to answer our own prayers. because, afterall, we are god, and god is everything.
this life we live is all illusion, and we create our own reality.



posted on Aug, 7 2007 @ 12:28 PM
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I've had prayers answered, and then some not. Later in life, I look back on some of those not answered and realized that if those prayers were answered I would not be in a good place....Kind of vague, but in other words the unanswered prayers led me to a better path. I dont believe its possible for my prayers to all be coincidense...it's just really not possbile.



posted on Aug, 7 2007 @ 01:02 PM
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Originally posted by NateNute
I've had prayers answered, and then some not. Later in life, I look back on some of those not answered and realized that if those prayers were answered I would not be in a good place....Kind of vague, but in other words the unanswered prayers led me to a better path. I dont believe its possible for my prayers to all be coincidense...it's just really not possbile.


I'd say it was coincidence. DarkSide put what i was trying to say into words beautifully.

And to corusso: I asked for the answers from Christians. So I didn't assume that everyone who believes in god is a Christian. I just assumed that everyone was who was Christian, was also a believer in god.



posted on Aug, 7 2007 @ 01:18 PM
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When something happens in the exact manner you ask....still coincidence?

[edit on 7-8-2007 by NateNute]



posted on Aug, 7 2007 @ 01:32 PM
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Originally posted by NateNute
When something happens in the exact manner you ask....still coincidence?

[edit on 7-8-2007 by NateNute]


Yes, I would still say so.
What did you pray for/about, that was so specific. Unless of course it's too personal. But just elaborate please.



posted on Aug, 7 2007 @ 01:33 PM
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Originally posted by norbin
I can guess that your response would be that it's gods divine plan, but where is it ever stated in the bible that god has a divine plan.


I would like to address this statement, as responding to the question about prayer would take far longer than I have available now and there are many others here who are just as, if not more, capable of explaining prayer.

It is most certainly written, both explicitly and implicitly, in scripture that God has a divine plan. From the opening statements in Genesis to the closing statements in Revelation, the Bible is loaded with prophesy. Prophesy as it is in scripture is words, visions, dreams, directives and visitations documented that point to something God is planning to do or is in the process of doing. Often Biblical prophesy is obscure, other times more obvious. Yet, it is there, and much has come to pass. A great example that historians have tried and tried to explain is Daniel's vision of the statue that predicted the rise and fall of several great empires, as well as how they fell. Before the Dead Sea scrolls were discovered, or the Septuagint was dated to 400BC, many put forward that the date Daniel was written was closer to 500AD to account for the explanation of the fall of the Roman empire, as well as Greece, Babylon and Persia. The very fact that it was predicted is evidence that God does have a master plan, and He will enact it despite us.

That would be an example of the implicit Word of God stating He has a master plan, but there are also explicit examples. One of the most obvious being Ephesians 1:11


In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will (English Standard Version)


The reconciliation can be tough...If God has a master plan, and works all things according to the counsel of His will, then how do we account for free will? Free will is something that is discussed implicitly (in my interpretation, others would disagree and state that free will does not exist), and often our concept of "free" will is grossly inaccurate. For example, someone born into poverty will have their will greatly influenced by their environment differently than someone born into affluence.

But alas, that discussion will have to wait until later



posted on Aug, 7 2007 @ 01:47 PM
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But that does raise the question of free will. What we act out has been predicted so therefore there is no free will? Or is there free will, just that god as an all knowing being can already see what we will do. That leaves us with free will, but it's all pre-determined. Sort of contradictory. And very confusing.

However the wording of the passage you cited, confuses me even more. As it leads me to believe that, everything we do is toward this divine plan. So wouldn't god have to make us do certain things to get to this divine plan, this is assuming we still have free will most of the time.

Also when I spoke of divine plan, I meant in a sense of our personal lives. As in everything working out for the best. Yadda yadda, the types of things people tell themselves in the face of grave tragedies.


[edit on 7-8-2007 by norbin]



posted on Aug, 7 2007 @ 02:10 PM
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okay well pretty much a prayer is the same thing as a birthday wish. you want something to happen, and someone says "hey, if you ask GOD, he will think about it and maybe he will decide to make it happen"

also, i read a post a while back where when people though of an outcome near a random event generator, the even thought of was more probable to occur. dont remember where i saw it though.



posted on Aug, 7 2007 @ 02:12 PM
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Originally posted by junglejake
Before the Dead Sea scrolls were discovered, or the Septuagint was dated to 400BC, many put forward that the date Daniel was written was closer to 500AD to account for the explanation of the fall of the Roman empire, as well as Greece, Babylon and Persia. The very fact that it was predicted is evidence that God does have a master plan, and He will enact it despite us.

That would be an example of the implicit Word of God stating He has a master plan, but there are also explicit examples.


Would that mean that god also has his part in the rise and fall of the nazi empire?

I find that hard to believe.



posted on Aug, 7 2007 @ 02:54 PM
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Originally posted by DarkSide

Originally posted by junglejake
Before the Dead Sea scrolls were discovered, or the Septuagint was dated to 400BC, many put forward that the date Daniel was written was closer to 500AD to account for the explanation of the fall of the Roman empire, as well as Greece, Babylon and Persia. The very fact that it was predicted is evidence that God does have a master plan, and He will enact it despite us.

That would be an example of the implicit Word of God stating He has a master plan, but there are also explicit examples.


Would that mean that god also has his part in the rise and fall of the nazi empire?

I find that hard to believe.



Which would also mean God was with the Americans when we slaughtered millions of natives and stole their land.

Not that I really find it hard to believe, God seems pretty pleased by blood, death, and war. A great model for society to live by.
Look around and see what it's done for us so far. War, corruption, dehumanization, all around good stuff.

Oh yeah, and a platform for corrupt politicians to gain control of the American government.



posted on Aug, 7 2007 @ 02:57 PM
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Originally posted by norbin


I see a sad pattern around me where a lot of Christians turn to prayer, and hope of gods guiding hands to turn up in a bad situation. .


Sad? Nah... What's sad is the gross materialism that exists in this world. It leads to nothing but emptiness and hopelessness. I've tried it,not for me. Sorry bout that, sport.

[edit on 7-8-2007 by SpeakerofTruth]



posted on Aug, 7 2007 @ 03:05 PM
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It does not effect your free will. You have many paths in life. He may know the paths in front of you, but only you can choose the right one.



posted on Aug, 7 2007 @ 03:16 PM
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Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
Sad? Nah... What's sad is the gross materialism that exists in this world. It leads to nothing but emptiness and hopelessness.


I agree, but most atheists I know are quite happy to think that they will die and cease to exist, in fact they hope that will happen.



posted on Aug, 7 2007 @ 03:18 PM
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I really dont know why they'd want that. Would you wrather believe in God, then die to find out there isnt one, or not believe, just to find out there is.



posted on Aug, 7 2007 @ 03:25 PM
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Originally posted by DarkSide


I agree, but most atheists I know are quite happy to think that they will die and cease to exist, in fact they hope that will happen.


Well, that's true.. I have never quite understood this fear of death. There is one of two things that is going to occur:

1) We continue on is some form, which is what I believe.

or

2) We just completely cease to exist, in which case, we will never know we ever existed at all.

Either way, I really don't see what the fear stems from. Now, I am not in any hurry to die, but, when it happens, it happens.



posted on Aug, 7 2007 @ 03:33 PM
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Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth

Originally posted by norbin


I see a sad pattern around me where a lot of Christians turn to prayer, and hope of gods guiding hands to turn up in a bad situation. .


Sad? Nah... What's sad is the gross materialism that exists in this world. It leads to nothing but emptiness and hopelessness. I've tried it,not for me. Sorry bout that, sport.

[edit on 7-8-2007 by SpeakerofTruth]


I suppose if false hope and fooling themselves is the path that Christians wish to choose then by all means let them. But it's not for me.
I am an atheist and I'm neither empty nor hopeless. In fact my life is full of meaning and I live every day for happiness. And when I help others, it's because of my morals instead of some hope that i'll get into heaven.

If there is a god (in the Christian sense), trust me, I doubt the majority of Christians in this time will get in to heaven. They are all sinners, for things that they don't even realize, because not all Christians read through the bible. Sins that they aren't truly sorry for, and never actually will be.

So no thank you to the thought of a god who has abandoned it's people. Forced us into a world only to be the topic of much bloodshed. And didn't even care about really letting people into heaven, until the time of Jesus.

If there is a god (not the Christian one), it is not one who wishes to be worshiped. A wise choice I would say.



posted on Aug, 7 2007 @ 05:32 PM
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the scope of the thread is way broad ...

Prayer: do it if it makes you feel good, i cannot say if Prayer is only a Placebo

As for a Divine Plan: the only plan that was undertaken was to aid the tribes of Israel in establishing a homeland and for Jerusalem to be the focal point for a continued observance & subservience to the tribal G-d,
known variously as EL or YHWH/

[the Divine Plan is also understood as the concept 'Karma'
where 'Laws' exact a cost or reward for your free-will actions]

men, priests, have befuddled and contaminated the masses with a serpentine code of do's & dont's with which to conduct their behaviors & lives....& a bunch of men...claim their visions & rantings are Divinely cast...

believe as you will/must



posted on Aug, 7 2007 @ 05:40 PM
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Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
Either way, I really don't see what the fear stems from. Now, I am not in any hurry to die, but, when it happens, it happens.


Because, for me anyway, the idea of non-existance is unbearable. I want to exist, I want to experience. As an atheist that's how I feel, so I'm either a lost soul or a disillusioned biologicalmachine.




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