Georgia: Russia dropped bomb on village

Care to back up why moving of sov.block countries to the EU is a good thing to the "world"?
Because i feel that we really don't need new underdeveloped countries to mess up the allready f'd up EU system... Bringing them in creates more problems than it solves, as EU isn't even offering any security quarantees. (and i surely am not willing to fight Russia over Georgia)

Well this interview with Emmanuel Karagiannis, a lecturer in International Relations specializing in Eurasian affairs, the University of Macedonia at Thessaliniki, Greece, sure made me think again...:

Georgian hostile strategy towards Moscow may alienate Abkhazia and South Ossetia

I would not say that the Georgian leadership is eager to escalate crisis in the bilateral relations, but rather it has adopted a high-risk confrontational strategy towards Moscow in order to attract international attention to the country’s frozen conflicts.

The Saakashvili government’s belligerent rhetoric is also for domestic consumption since anti-Russian sentiments run high in Georgia. However, such a strategy could only alienate the breakaway republics of Abkhazia and South Ossetia further and play into the heads of Russian ultra-nationalists who desire the restoration of the Soviet Union.

Then again - it could be Russian ultra-nationalists who "conspired" and orchestarted this incident, since it could play into their hands of re-uniting the former Soviet Union. Just a thought...

Georgian foreign ministry no claims that the missile was Raduga KH-58antiradiation missile, used to destroy radar stations.

Reuters says that missile was not launched but rather dropped.

Russian ambassador Popov said that Georgian evidence was invalid and that Georgia had missiles with the same serial number. (Russians should know, they left them to Georgians)

[edit on 8-8-2007 by northwolf]

Originally posted by northwolf
Daedalus, Some comments on few of your points:
A. I think we'll have to salute maloy for a job well done

Agreed. Its good to have a homegrown localised opinion from that part of the world. Really puts the 'A' in ATS.

G. The pic is really cool, could Helmutt provide me a bigger version

Agreed. I want one too!

H. Read my sig

I really hate how US media is twisting and over simplifying these issues. Since this conflict is mainly not caused by russia and they have rather attempted to keep the region peaceful. But i still don't like russians too much, sitting within their artillery range might explain that

hmmm.. Let me re-phrase.. I perceived you to be more anti-russian than pro-western so to say..
Anyways.. I understand your sentiments.
I live in a place that is marked as a primary nuclear bullseye by two non-democratic,militaristic and dictator-esque states!
no sweat!


On a more relevant note; if this is a Georgian con-job(and it does seem to be one) one must congratulate the Georgian administration for its balls. Trying to frame a nation of the size and stature of Russia(in comparision to its own size) is no small undertaking.

Originally posted by northwolf
Care to back up why moving of sov.block countries to the EU is a good thing to the "world"?

Because Russia is just as dangerous as it was as the USSR, and the less power/influence
they have the better.

Originally posted by iori_komei
Because Russia is just as dangerous as it was as the USSR, and the less power/influence they have the better.

Dangerous? To whom? The capitalists who desire the complete exploitation of the globe? Or to the United States who has openly declared its desire to make this century, the American century?

I fail to see how the Russians are dangerous to any one except the monied groups who love nothing more than subverting national sovereignty and turning a profit come what may.

How many countries has Russia invaded in the last 10 years? How many has the bastion of democracy and freedom?

There is an article in a Russian newspaper (I'd post it, but I think no one here reads Russia), which states that the Russians are themselves demanding a full investigation of Georgia's accusations, and the Russian military officials have presented an alternative theory. Basically these are the facts it points out:

1. There have been no flights out of Mozdok all day yesterday, and that is the military airport where these types of operations are staged from on Russia's side. There are in fact no battle-ready SU-24 currently in service at Mozdok, especially not 2.

2. How did Georgia figure out the mass and caliber of the bomb, and what type of jet it was dropped from so quick? The news about the 700kg bomb broke within hours of the event - while the bomb was still over 5 feet underground in the awkwardly shaped crater. They could not have determined the mass of the bomb without having prior knowledge of it. Nor was there any way to determine that the aircraft that dropped it were Su-24's from the radar signature. It just seems Georgia was too well prepared for this.

3. And the newest breaking news: Russian radar installations on the border with South Ossetia have detected Georgian aircraft (most likely Su-25) not long before the incident, which crossed into South Ossetia airspace. There is no mention of it bombing anything there (although on previous occasion Georgians did attack South Ossetia via their airforce), but soon after it crossed it started receiving heavy ground fire (Su-25 is a slow and low-altitude ground attack aircraft). After this it quickly rose to a high altitude and flew back into Georgia (appearing to be flying from Russia).

It is very plausible that because of the damage it was forced to drop its munitions at high altitude to make it back. Because the missile was dropped and not fired, the perfectly round deep crater can be explained, as well as the lack of detonation, and reports of other - smaller falling objects (smaller missiles?).

4. Why the conflicting reports? First it was 2 Su-35 aircraft then 2 Su-24's - which are completely different planes. Also the Georgian minister first said it's a bomb weighing 700kg, then he corrected that it's a missile, and both remarks were made before it was taken out of the crater - and why would a missile make a crater as if it fell straight down? Also Georgia does have mutions to match the descriptions (K-58 missile), which are basically located in an old Soviet-Era munitions dump. They might not be battle-ready, but seeing how it was dropped and not launched...



But Saakashvilli doesn't waste time with facts. He already stated in somewhat angry manner that this incident will force Georgia to vastly increase its armed forces, and mobilize near the separatist borders. And guess who will pay for the increased armed forces? Georgia is broke, and can't afford to provide electricity in its capital Tbilisi 24/7. Yep - the good old American tax payer. You already sponsored Saaka last year to the tune of $300 million, but that was barely enough to resupply his militia with new assault rifles and fix up the tanks and old weapons from the Soviet Era. Forget about feeding the population, or improving the economy (as if Georgia has a defined economy). And now I bet he will want F-16, and patriot missiles.

Georgia is building up to be a military state- by the military, for the military. Forget the people, forget the economy, forget the country. As long as the military is strong Saaka can stay in power indefinitely. And American tax payers are only too willing to sponsor him, after reading sob stories about how Vlad the Terrible is trying to bomb Georgian villages and goat sheds into submission.

Here is just one of the Russian articles that talks about Georgia Su-25 that crossed into South Ossetia that night (it's in Russian):

www.rosbalt.ru...

Lets see how long before BBC and CNN picks it up with breaking news: "Georgia Bombs its own Village and Attempts to Cause an International Incident by Framing Russia".

Yeah I bet you won't see this on BBC, because thats not what the majority of people want to hear about they new sweet heart- Saakashvilli.

Originally posted by iori_komei
Russia really should'nt be allowed to get away with this, I realize military action is
not the answer, but still.

Then what is...

Lets just sit down and talk with them.
Mabye bring them here, give them tours of our counrty, and our military forces and technology.

Russia is just testing its limits out, the whole world is right now, Russia, China, Turkey, Iran, seems everyone but North Korea is making a lot of noise right now... and isn't it N.Korea that recently acquired the n-bomb...?

The US already has most of its troops on that side of the world, as well as a large portion of its reserves.

The US certainly has the firepower to wage war with any enemy on earth and win, if the have the will and fortitude is anouther question altogether.

Its getting realy old haveing to play nice war with an enemy to ferocious.

Originally posted by ArMaP

Originally posted by Donoso

What is there to make of these photos, if anything?

I hope Georgians can read English, otherwise they will not know what is written on those yellow plastic bands, putting them upside down does not translate them...

Police line do not cross.

Ha, ha.

Good eyes ArMap! I almost peed in my pants.

Originally posted by TKainZero

and isn't it N.Korea that recently acquired the n-bomb...?

I still don't believe it. I don't believe North Korea is capable of producing any nukes yet. They've tested a suitcase nuke they got on the black market, that's what I believe...

Originally posted by maloy
But Saakashvilli doesn't waste time with facts. He already stated in somewhat angry manner that this incident will force Georgia to vastly increase its armed forces, and mobilize near the separatist borders. And guess who will pay for the increased armed forces? Georgia is broke, and can't afford to provide electricity in its capital Tbilisi 24/7. Yep - the good old American tax payer. You already sponsored Saaka last year to the tune of $300 million, but that was barely enough to resupply his militia with new assault rifles and fix up the tanks and old weapons from the Soviet Era. Forget about feeding the population, or improving the economy (as if Georgia has a defined economy). And now I bet he will want F-16, and patriot missiles.

Georgia is building up to be a military state- by the military, for the military. Forget the people, forget the economy, forget the country. As long as the military is strong Saaka can stay in power indefinitely. And American tax payers are only too willing to sponsor him, after reading sob stories about how Vlad the Terrible is trying to bomb Georgian villages and goat sheds into submission.

Well it's true what you say,but you know that when you live next to Russia there is only two option-are you whit Russia,or against it.And if we look at historical background in that region than it is logical that post soviet country's most prefer an U.S support that Russians.About feeding the population-it's not only in Georgia,Russia is also spending more money to military than to it economics.
''Vlad the Terrible" that's good one

Originally posted by TKainZero

Originally posted by iori_komei
Russia really should'nt be allowed to get away with this, I realize military action is
not the answer, but still.

Then what is...

Lets just sit down and talk with them.
Mabye bring them here, give them tours of our counrty, and our military forces and technology.

Yes for all of the above except the military and tech bits of course

Russia is just testing its limits out, the whole world is right now, Russia, China, Turkey, Iran, seems everyone but North Korea is making a lot of noise right now... and isn't it N.Korea that recently acquired the n-bomb...?

Didn't quite comprehend that.
A quick heads-up on the situation here:
The general understanding seems to be that this was a Georgian setup job(now reported to be accidental by Tavarish Maloy :lol. Russia is not convicted of any violations here as yet. Not yet by ATS opinion at least.

The US certainly has the firepower to wage war with any enemy on earth and win, if the have the will and fortitude is anouther question altogether.

That is definitely not true. Whichever way you look at it; nuclear or conventional.

Originally posted by Daedalus3
That is definitely not true. Whichever way you look at it; nuclear or conventional.

Your newer know until it's happen.But I agree,only country that has that ability, I think is China.There isnt simply so much bullets to kill them all!
)

Originally posted by swesais
Well it's true what you say,but you know that when you live next to Russia there is only two option-are you whit Russia,or against it.

Not at all. Look at Finland, Mongolia, Kazakhstan, Belarus, Azerbaijan. They all maintain decent relations with Russia, and yet are not submissive to it in any way and rule and ally themselves as they see fit (yes even Belarus which has strayed further from Russia during the last few years).

The only countries are are as you say "with Russia" are Armenia and Kazakhstan, to a degree. And the only countries that can be said to be "against Russia" are the Baltics, Poland, Moldova, and Georgia. Even Ukraine understands that it can't allienate Russia, because it is its biggest trading partner. The rest of the countries are neutral.

Russia is not forcing anyone to be its ally, but for obvious reason is wary of potential enemies on its border, especially its southern border. The small states like Baltics, Georgia and even Poland think that they are major player in the post-USSR era and that Russia is out to get them. No one is out to get anyone, it's all just politics - and nothing to do with USSR. All large countries are to some degree alike, and Russia and US and China are no different. Small countries near these powers have to position themselves carefully, and if they want to be enemies than there is just no way they can win.

The Russophobia in Eastern Europe is fueled not by Russia's actions, but by local politicians and news media which have a biased view on all of Russia's actions. It is time to stop living in the past. Russia will never be communist, and has not invaded anyone for over two decades.

Originally posted by swesais
And if we look at historical background in that region than it is logical that post soviet country's most prefer an U.S support that Russians.

I don't see that logic. US never had much presence in Eastern Europe, while Russia had long standing relations dating to the Russian Empire. And it wasn't all conquest and domination either. Look at Georgia and Amermenia - they joined the Russian empire for common protection against the Turks. Nor did Russia real conquer the Asian ex-Soviet countries - there was a mutual benefit of uniting to face common threats. Ukraine and Belarus were always with Russia throughtout history - always close allies and never enemies. The only countries that never really belonged to the USSR were the Baltics, Poland, Hungary, and Romania.

These countries I understand wanting to go with the US, but they will soon learn that neutrality is the best side they can choose. As for other countries, like Ukraine and Georgia, I see no reason at all for any US involvement there. They are historical allies and partners of Russia.

Originally posted by swesais
About feeding the population-it's not only in Georgia,Russia is also spending more money to military than to it economics.

Russia has an economy, and one that is growing at a very healthy pace- outpacing every country in Europe. It is still a far way off from the likes of China or even Germany, but it will get there gradually (well maybe not China). Russia has its own industry, its own business sector, and a considerable amount of foreign investment, not to mention natural resources. It can afford to keep a strong military, and cannot afford not to in fact.

As for Georgia - it has no industry, few if any large business, virtually no foreign investment (even now that they are improving ties with the West - Europeans are still wary of investing there). The only economy Georgia has, revolves around agriculture, and trade with Russia - and Saakashvilli could successfully end it. Instead of focusing on its economy and Standard of Life, like other ex-Soviet nations (Baltics, East Europe, Kazakhstan, Ukraine), Georgia is now focusing all of its efforts on its military. While people's lifestyles are worse than they were in 1989.

And Georgia thinks that if it succeeds in getting back Abkhazia and South Ossetia - all of its problems will be solved, and it will live hapily and prosperously. The problems then will only get worse, because Georgia is unable to take care of the land it has, and wants even more land, much of which is impoverished. Without economy, there can be no Democracy. And Saakashvilli is trying to build a country out of military and call it a Democracy - but a band of armed militia does not a sovereign country make.

Originally posted by iori_komei
Because Russia is just as dangerous as it was as the USSR, and the less power/influence
they have the better.

Yes, so, instead you'd like one country to hold all the power on this planet? That gives them the ability to do whatever they want across this planet. There IS an equilibrium right now and that's exactly what we need up until the point we can reach an understanding and a democratic world order. Up until then? We need checks and balances to keep us safe from a self inflicted end of the world scenario.

"Russia is not forcing anyone to be its ally, but for obvious reason is wary of potential enemies on its border, especially its southern border. The small states like Baltics, Georgia and even Poland think that they are major player in the post-USSR era and that Russia is out to get them. No one is out to get anyone, it's all just politics - and nothing to do with USSR. All large countries are to some degree alike, and Russia and US and China are no different. Small countries near these powers have to position themselves carefully, and if they want to be enemies than there is just no way they can win.

The Russophobia in Eastern Europe is fueled not by Russia's actions, but by local politicians and news media which have a biased view on all of Russia's actions. It is time to stop living in the past. Russia will never be communist, and has not invaded anyone for over two decades."

I can not agree whit you.They are pressing on everyone who isnt pro-Moscow.And I really doubt than any of small country's wants to be an enemie of Russia,but when Russia wants an major influece in post soviet countrys, of course we will resist.And if no one is to get anyone that russian goverment is very carefully hiding that statement.Look at your speaker Zirinovski-his statements are very agresiv and he wont mis a chance to trow something mean to so calle dsmall countrys.Ok I know his a litle bit wierd person and probably a drunker,but it's no matter-he is an employed of RF goverment and speaks for them. And Russophobia isnt and produkt of last 17 years and not an produkt of media.You have invaded half an europa as USSR,humiliated small countrys,tried to russificate them.We can simply forget it and talk whit you as nothing happened.And not only we are living in past,but also Russia.Your celebrating all soviet celebration, your army still has red star as mayor symbol,you like to tell everyone that you are the great liberators.As for Georgia-well I simply dont understand what do you gain by supporting that seperate State South Ossetia??No other country around the globe has recognized it, only Russia.A litle bit strange isnt it??

I was told a story from an importer who claimed he had bought oil from russia and sold in on the open market ....He gave lots of money as a part payment to Russia.....But he saw no oil..so he flew to russia and spoke with the person in charge ....the commander told him he could fill as many ships as he wants but cannot take the oil out of the country.......He had a gut feeling he would not get the oil......so he sold his stake in the oil lost alot of money...the new guy flew over to Russia and argued with the commander ...the commander told him he could tell him in private why he could not let the oil go... they both went out side .....and the oil guy was shot in the head.... this is how Russia pays its bills.....
This is just one of many ..I have heard.

Originally posted by swesais
I can not agree whit you. They are pressing on everyone who isnt pro-Moscow.

How are they pressing on them? By raising prices for RUSSIAN gas? By playing the same politicical name calling that the small countries play? It is not like they are threatening anyone. It's minor political bickering, and I think no one is really afraid that Russia would invade them. And now since they got NATO to hold their hand, why do they still appear to fear Russia? I think it is the local politicians playing rusophobia to their advantage.

Originally posted by swesais
And I really doubt than any of small country's wants to be an enemie of Russia,but when Russia wants an major influece in post soviet countrys, of course we will resist.

Georgia openly acts as an enemy of Russia. The Baltics and Poland appear to be very confrontational towards Russia for no reason at all. They start these accusations for no other reason than to rouse up the people and get something from their new Western masters. Let me tell you - Russia cares very little about Poland and the Baltics right now (other than the missile shield), and in most bickerings tries to simply ignore them. It knows it has no influence there, and is not trying to have any.

Originally posted by swesais
And if no one is to get anyone that russian goverment is very carefully hiding that statement.Look at your speaker Zirinovski-his statements are very agresiv and he wont mis a chance to trow something mean to so calle dsmall countrys.

Why does everyone always pick that clown Zhirinovsky to prove that Russia is sinister? He is like the American Pat Robertson - he says what the ultra nationalists and fanatics (a small minority) want to hear, and I don't even think he believes in half the sh*t he says. He is a political clown, and is treated as such by nearly everyone. He is more of a comedian than a serious politician representing Russia.

But in truth - the Putin administration benefits from him staying in his position in the Duma, because he keeps the serious nationalist-fanatics (such as Nationalist-Bolsheviks) away from power. He is meant to take up the seat of the nationalists, and do absolutely nothing.

Originally posted by swesais
Ok I know his a litle bit wierd person and probably a drunker,but it's no matter-he is an employed of RF goverment and speaks for them.

As I said he does not in any way voice Putin's views. His sole mission to seemingly represent nationalists, and keep the real nationalist politicians (such as the nutjob Limonov) away. I read the guy's biography for God's sakes. It might not seem Democratic, but in this case it's a good thing. Don't listen to anything he says, because 95% of Russia doesn't.

Originally posted by swesais
And Russophobia isnt and produkt of last 17 years and not an produkt of media.

It is product of a series of events and changes in ideologies that followed the fall of the USSR. Russophobia was unvoidable and undestandable in the 90's, but why its resurgence now? In my opinion it has more to do with what NATO is planning, than with what Russia is doing.

Originally posted by swesais
You have invaded half an europa as USSR,humiliated small countrys,tried to russificate them.

Ukraine, Belarus, Georgia, Armenia, Azerbaijan and all the 'stans' (except Afghanistan) were never invaded by the way. They joined the Bolsheviks during the Civil War, and all had their own Bolshevik parties.

As for the rest - they were occupied (not really invaded since there was not so much of a resistance) during the Stalinist era. Russia has long denounced Stalin and his regime, not to mention Communism. Russia suffered under Stalin just like everyone else. The later Soviet leaders just felt that they had to hold on to the Warsaw pact countries. And just so you know - there were large protests in Moscow against forced occupation by Russians when Hungary and Czechoslovakia were reoccupied later on.

And Communism is long gone. The Bolshevik party has been barred from government positions. Why all this talk about Soviet Union and occupations? Or maybe all of Europe should rouse up new accusations against Germany and demand energy subsidies and place missiles on their border to protect from a new Reich? The past is past- USSR is not coming back, no one wants it back, and Russia is just another country with a sizeable military to protect itself. I don't see how Russophobia makes sense. Just let the past die.

Originally posted by swesais
We can simply forget it and talk whit you as nothing happened.

Communism has been renounced by Russia many times. If you got issues with the madman Stalin, then complain to Georgia - they still seem to idolize the man over there. Should all of Europe still be pissed at Germany in your opinion?

Originally posted by swesais
And not only we are living in past,but also Russia.Your celebrating all soviet celebration, your army still has red star as mayor symbol,you like to tell everyone that you are the great liberators.

History is history, and not everything associated with communism was bad. Russia has denounced the communist regime and ideology - that should be enough. The Great Patriotic War was a major event, and why shouldn't Russia celebrate the end of WWII like the rest of the world. They contributed to its end like no other nation.

Originally posted by swesais
As for Georgia-well I simply dont understand what do you gain by supporting that seperate State South Ossetia?

South Ossetia and Abkhazia have a large population of Russians. When the war with Georgia started, attrocities were commited by both sides, however if Georgia succeeded in overpowering the separatists, they would likely have carried out ethnic cleansing there. Russia felt it necessary to protect its citizens there, and thats why Russian Peacekeepers intervened. Russia has been pressuring Georgia to end the war when it started, but Georgia only escalated it.

Currently Russia does not support the separatists' government. In fact they already stated that they do not want Abkhazia and South Ossetia to join Russia, but to work out a deal with Georgia, but without a war.

You say that there are many russian citizens(In South Osetia).The key word is citizen and by that are you meaning thay have russians citizenship.In that case I have an question why are they there??It like mayor problem in every country where is russians presents-the same is in Baltics,Poland.You are calling us as provocative-WHY???We only want that ruskies who lives in our country's speak in our language an is loyal to country they are living.You know there are russians in my country that have lived for more than 40 years there, but they still dont know any word in latvian and dont want to learn.
Offtopic.I must say that I'm very happy to see an inteligent russian,Maloy, because I have large populaton of ruskies in my country and they are (here you can enter every mean word you know).I thought that in Russia people's are different,but my opinion about Russia after I visit it several times was-it is a hole ganstas nation.