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Round 1. DonWahn v. Simulacra: Light-Blue Dawn

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posted on Aug, 7 2007 @ 01:29 AM
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The topic for this debate is "Conspiracy theorists who educate themselves in survivalism have a good chance of surviving and successfully resisting a seizure of absolute power by the New World Order".

DonWahn will be arguing the pro position and will open the debate.
Simulacra will argue the con position.

Each debater will have one opening statement each. This will be followed by 3 alternating replies each. There will then be one closing statement each and no rebuttal.


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When this thread becomes unlocked, you may proceed.




posted on Aug, 7 2007 @ 05:02 PM
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Let the debate commence...

First off, I would like to thank Vagbond and the Mods for allowing me this opportunity to present my ideas and defend my stance here on ATS. I have always wanted to participate and now is my chance. Simulacra, I bid you the best luck and hope for a good solid debate.

I apologize if my attempts at debating are weak, but this is my first opportunity and I am a little unfamiliar with the process. Here goes nothing.

New World Order defined

Since George H.W. Bush's state of the union address in which he mentioned the emergence of a New World Order, speculation has arisen that there is a secretive society pulling the strings of world leaders in order to advance their agenda. This grouping of global elite has managed to advance their agenda enough, where average everyday citizens have become fearful that their civil liberties are at risk of being seized or completely eliminated for that matter.

With those thoughts in mind, the idea that one could possibly escape this seizure of willful God-given rights has undoubtedly crossed the minds of many. Surely there are and have been many people that have decided to forego the luxuries of everyday life, to submit themselves to a more natural and balanced life with Mother Nature at their side. When the topic of the New World Order comes about, many conspiracy theorists must revel in the thought that they could possibly defy all odds and survive on their own, in the wilderness and completely avoid detection and suspension by the impending cabal.

With the emergence of such television shows such as Survivorman and Man vs. Wild, the public is becoming increasingly informed as to the hardships and struggles of one that is trying to survive in the wilderness and living off of the land. Without these commercial outlets, one would have little to no idea how to live in these conditions and not die within a week. Before these programs, one would have had to spend countless hours reading books and doing research, in order to gain the appropriate knowledge to brave these conditions willingly. Now, all one has to do is diligently tune in on a weekly basis (or more for DVR's) and gain a vast amount of survival knowledge that would take years to amass otherwise.

The idea that one could legitimately survive these conditions, and avoid detention by the NWO is very much a reality. With the information gained by the outlets I have named above, as well as other independant research, one could theoretically remove themselves from the day to day experiences of life and submit to a life of solitude and survival, provided the individual is properly equipped (clothing, minimal supplies/technology). With some sort of dense forest or camouflaged land in nearly every state, it would be easy for the well informed to slip away one day, never to be detected again. Knowing what to eat in nature, knowing where to look, and knowing how to defend yourself and keep safe is all that one needs to survive the NWO.

If you cannot manage to convince yourself that braving the elements that Mother Nature has to throw at you is the best way out, then you risk being subservient to a group of individuals that closely resemble a modern day Nazi Germany. Commanding you to do this, and forbidding you to do that. All of this can be circumvented by just doing yourself a favor, and living off of the land. If you pay attention to the right things and absorb the right information, it is only your will that would cause you to falter in survival mode. I would personally rather live off of bugs and berries than be relegated to a governmental serf. I am confident that anyone equipped correctly(conspiracy theorists or not) could survive in the wilderness and successfully resist the seizure of absolute power by the NWO. All it takes is a strong will to survive and the attitude that nothing is impossible, even if it might seem that way.

This can absolutely be done.



posted on Aug, 7 2007 @ 06:56 PM
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Thank you Vagabond for letting me tag along in the 2007 debate. Topics look interesting...this one in particular should also be exceptional.
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Survivalism and the modern conspiracy theorist. Never in history has there been such an unreasoned and illogical association between two branches of thought within humanity. The notion that a surfacing New World Over, one of which who will force it's citizens to revert to a nation of survivalist is highly unreasonable, if not impossible.

The question at hand is Will being a survivalist help one resist the New World Order. The answer is 'No it will not'.

Being a survivalist may assist you in surviving an ecological disaster such as another Hurricane Katrina. It will aid in your survival should our planet be unexpectedly struck with an asteroid. Survivalism will also be beneficial if there is a sudden loss of electricity such as the 1977 New York Blackout which lasted for 25 hours.

But the belief that survivalism can solely aid one in resisting a governmental takeover such as a New World Order is delusional.

Exactly how can stockpiling on canned goods and bottled water be the main aggregate for defeating the NWO? First, it is best we define what exactly the 'New World Order' is in regards to modernity.

Old World Order - Our Old World Order has been based upon the principle that sovereign governments own and control their subjects.

New World Order - Our New World Order has been based upon the principle that citizens own and control their governments.

George Bush Sr. goes further to mention the implication of the New World Order in modern society.


A new partnership of nations has begun, and we stand today at a unique and extraordinary moment. The crisis in the Persian Gulf, as grave as it is, also offers a rare opportunity to move toward an historic period of cooperation. Out of these troubled times, our fifth objective—a new world order—can emerge: A new era—freer from the threat of terror, stronger in the pursuit of justice and more secure in the quest for peace. An era in which the nations of the world, east and west, north and south, can prosper and live in harmony. - George H. W. Bush, Given to a joint session of the United States Congress, Washington D.C. on September 11, 1990.


So the question arises, are we living in the New World Order as you read this? If so then do you believe that fundamental survivalism has played a prominent role in your current existence? Of course not.

I'm not here to defend or support the myriad of concepts regarding the New World Order or whether 'they' are truly out to get you. What I'm illustrating is the simple fact that survivalism will not aid you in resisting a governmental entity. Survivalism is about surviving. There is nothing political about it. If Earth decided to throw the planet in chaos, it will not know your political affiliation, nor whether you're a conservative or a liberal.

Survivalism is a practice, New World Order is a theory. They simply do not relate.



posted on Aug, 8 2007 @ 03:55 PM
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In response to Brother Simulacra's statement that surviving the takeover of the NWO is "highly unreasonable, if not impossible" seems like an ignorant stance to take with such weighty subject matter. Even without being versed in survivalism. Ones ability to survive is an instinct that comes from mans need to survive before (cavemen times), even without modern amenities.

The idea of the NWO has been around since Albert Pike wrote the groundwork for establishing a One World Order in the 19th century. This groundwork pertains to the notion that through manipulation of the populous fear, that they can be controlled into forfeiting their human rights in order to benefit the rest of society. This can be circumvented if one decides to be independent of the rules that govern and create their own framework to live by.

I feel that your definitions of Old vs New World Order seems a bit backwards (eventhough I know you got them from credible sources). The notion of the upcoming New World Order is believed that all national governments are going to be done away with in favor of a central one world government, with religion included. Personal beliefs and freedom will be stripped in order for the populous to follow the fascist agenda of one group. So this would be the "principle that sovereign governments own and control their subjects." However the word government would be singular.

The conspiratorial nature of the New World Order stems from the fact that nobody knows that this secret agenda is being fulfilled unbeknownst to the general public. It is being carried out on a day to day basis, with the unknowing subjects being shuffled into the desired place everyday. War, television, capitalism have made us what we are today. It is possible for any one person to disconnect themselves from this mindset and bring about a personal revolution against the NWO.

This agenda is not in place, nor has it been in place for any amount of years. The agenda is a long process which is aimed at slowly converting the subject into a willing participant, having no rights, and no freedom of personal expression, all while allowing them to believe that their sacrifices are for the good of the entire group.

The ability to survive this takeover is not an overnight decision. The decision comes from being acutely aware of the ever changing surroundings and political/social climate of the world. So I guess we are surviving the NWO as we speak, and we will continue to survive it in the future. The question that matters is, when will we become aware of the breaking point, and revert to animal instinct.

Simply stockpiling canned goods is not the main intent of the survivalist. Their intent is to sacrifice their "perceived freedom" for real freedom, without the governing forces dictating their every move. You've seen "V for Vendetta" haven't you? The world is becoming a police state and we are losing freedoms everyday. From warrantless wiretapping, to cameras tracking your every move, the need to survive is increasing daily.

The decision has to come sooner than later to leave everything else behind, and commit to being a leader and not a follower. The majority has been content following, but to make it through these changing times, it takes a leader. One that will forego all luxuries and concentrate on defying the NWO and living as they wish.

Survivalism is a practice and the New World Order is a reality. They DO relate to one another, in that if you believe the reality of the NWO, then you will be forced to survive in order to keep living as you have done your whole life. With freedom of expression, religion and decision, with all of your God given rights. With the NWO at the helm these will be impossible, and you will be forced to survive outside of your comfort zone.

The ability to function in survival mode directly correlates to the impending takeover. If you can survive outside of "the box" then you will surely be able to foil governmental plans to ensure that you are a willing, mindless subject, with no objections to helping fulfill their agenda.



posted on Aug, 9 2007 @ 11:39 AM
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Originally posted by Don Wahn
So I guess we are surviving the NWO as we speak, and we will continue to survive it in the future.


Just exactly how are we surviving this current NWO? What survivalist activities have we employed? We are still just dependent on the government and corporate markets as we were decades ago. Nothing has changed.

How are you getting that electricity you're using to read this post? Surely it cant be from an external generator in your backyard.

What about the food in your cabinet and refrigerator? Is it home-grown or was it obtained at your local grocery store?

And the clothes on your back? Were they hand-made or simply purchased from some large corporation?

The prevailing point is since we are living in the NWO (as you suggested) then we are doing so without the employment of survivalism.



Originally posted by Don Wahn
The conspiratorial nature of the New World Order stems from the fact that nobody knows that this secret agenda is being fulfilled unbeknownst to the general public...This agenda is not in place, nor has it been in place for any amount of years.


Here you contradict your argument. If the agenda for NWO is unknown, not taking place and has not been taking place for years then how could you possibly state that survivalism will aid in this unknown force that is simply not in place nor has it been in place?

What are we preparing for if there is simply NO agenda? (yet above you mentioned we are living in NWO, blatant contradiction)



Originally posted by Don Wahn
In response to Brother Simulacra's statement that surviving the takeover of the NWO is "highly unreasonable, if not impossible" seems like an ignorant stance to take with such weighty subject matter.


I think you have it wrong here. Survivalism is not going to stop a leviathan like government entity from exerting their power. In fact, practicing survivalism is a reactionary method to disaster. The practice simply waits for catastrophic events to occur and then, after losing all 'quality of life' remnants, forces one to live in a deprived and minimalistic state. If one wanted to surely prevent a 'NWO', it would be through political action and uniting the people. Unity is what it takes to make everyone fully aware of a modern crisis such as an 'NWO'. Survivalism takes a selfish stance and forces an 'every man for himself' behavior.


Originally posted by Don Wahn
Even without being versed in survivalism. Ones ability to survive is an instinct that comes from mans need to survive before (cavemen times), even without modern amenities.


Still the question remains, how will practicing survivalism stop the NWO?.


Originally posted by Don Wahn
The idea of the NWO has been around since Albert Pike wrote the groundwork for establishing a One World Order in the 19th century.
This groundwork pertains to the notion that through manipulation of the populous fear, that they can be controlled into forfeiting their human rights in order to benefit the rest of society.

Still, this does not address survivalism in relation to preventing the NWO. You must show that survivalism will prevent the NWO. You're simply not doing so.



Originally posted by Don Wahn
This can be circumvented if one decides to be independent of the rules that govern and create their own framework to live by.


One's desire to become independent of a ruling authority is not liberation nor will it prevent the NWO from exerting their force. It's a selfish activity that simply enables the NWO to still exist.



Originally posted by Don Wahn
I feel that your definitions of Old vs New World Order seems a bit backwards (eventhough I know you got them from credible sources). The notion of the upcoming New World Order is believed that all national governments are going to be done away with in favor of a central one world government, with religion included. Personal beliefs and freedom will be stripped in order for the populous to follow the fascist agenda of one group. So this would be the "principle that sovereign governments own and control their subjects." However the word government would be singular.


Interesting view on the New World Order. Yet you are still not providing a reason how survivalism will prevent the NWO. You are not addressing the debate question.


Originally posted by Don Wahn
The ability to survive this takeover is not an overnight decision. The decision comes from being acutely aware of the ever changing surroundings and political/social climate of the world.


Being acutely aware of an ever changing political/social change is not survivalism. Besides, its not about surviving anything, its about preventing the NWO.



Originally posted by Don Wahn
The ability to function in survival mode directly correlates to the impending takeover. If you can survive outside of "the box" then you will surely be able to foil governmental plans to ensure that you are a willing, mindless subject, with no objections to helping fulfill their agenda.


How? Just tell me how exactly this will happen?


(This post exceeded the 5500 character limit and has been trimmed from the end.)

[edit on 10-8-2007 by The Vagabond]



posted on Aug, 9 2007 @ 03:52 PM
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Originally posted by Simulacra
Just exactly how are we surviving this current NWO? What survivalist activities have we employed? We are still just dependent on the government and corporate markets as we were decades ago. Nothing has changed.

The prevailing point is since we are living in the NWO (as you suggested) then we are doing so without the employment of survivalism.


Lets look at the question at hand. "Conspiracy theorists who educate themselves in survivalism have a good chance of surviving and successfully resisting a seizure of absolute power by the New World Order".

The question does not state that we have to be living in the NWO as we speak. It states that being well versed in survivalism will give you a good chance of surviving a seizure of absolute power. To my knowledge, absolute power has not yet been seized from all citizens. Until that happens, it does not matter where I get my clothes or groceries from, what matters is that I am mentally and physically preparing for the time and date that absolute power is seized. At that time, I would take advantage of my survivalist preparations and do what I had to do to keep myself alive and free.

We are living in times in which the NWO is gaining momentum towards their end goal which is the seizure of absolute power. I never stated that absolute power had been seized but I apologize for not making that clearer in my previous post.


Originally posted by Simulacra
If the agenda for NWO is unknown, not taking place and has not been taking place for years then how could you possibly state that survivalism will aid in this unknown force that is simply not in place nor has it been in place? What are we preparing for if there is simply NO agenda?


If I had a secret plan to rule the world, do you honestly think that I would be advertising it on billboards and papers? "Hey I'm going to take over the world, try and stop me". The agenda of the NWO is unknown to everyone aside from the global elite that are perpetrating these chains of events. This ensures that the sheep will go right along with the master, regardless of the situation.

Given the amount of information that one can find regarding the NWO, or lack thereof, it appears that we are currently living in what seems to be a run-up to the seizure of absolute power. No one knows when this will happen or what events will transpire leading to this, but given the track record of "events" that are to lead up to this end result, it appears that it WILL happen eventually. Until that "eventual" date when absolute power is seized, it would behoove one to become acquainted with being a survivalist so they could "resist" and "survive" the NWO and their agenda.


Originally posted by Simulacra
Survivalism is not going to stop a leviathan like government entity from exerting their power. In fact, practicing survivalism is a reactionary method to disaster. The practice simply waits for catastrophic events to occur and then, after losing all 'quality of life' remnants, forces one to live in a deprived and minimalistic state. If one wanted to surely prevent a 'NWO', it would be through political action and uniting the people. Unity is what it takes to make everyone fully aware of a modern crisis such as an 'NWO'. Survivalism takes a selfish stance and forces an 'every man for himself' behavior.


True that survivalism is a reactionary method to surviving disaster, but once absolute power is seized does this not constitute disaster (metaphorically)? If I want to survive the NWO then why would I NOT revert to the life of a minimalist? You suggest unifying with others to take political action. This defeats the purpose of resisting and surviving. If your rights have been seized by a NAZI like government, then by showing support for a cause other than what is being commanded would surely get you locked or killed up for showing your dissenting opinion.


Originally posted by Simulacra
Still the question remains, how will practicing survivalism stop the NWO?.

Again, the question is not "How can I stop the NWO from happening". The question refers to one person being able to resist and survive the seizure of absolute power. To try and stop the NWO from happening, as it is happening would surely result in death or imprisonment.

You keep referring to the prevention or stopping of the NWO, when the word "prevent" or "stop" is never mentioned in the debate question. The question is will being a survivalist help me "resist" and "survive" a "seizure of absolute power" not prevent and stop the NWO. If you pay attention to what is happening around you, then you should be able to successfully resist and survive, once absolute power has been seized. It is not a selfish act, it is simply thinking about how you can make it out alive. If a major catastrophe takes place, I am not going to try and help the millions of people in the same boat as me (I know, pretty selfish). I am going to figure out how I can resist the takeover and survive by any means. Once the deed has been done, I swoop into action and revert to minimalist tactics with the clothes on my back and whatever supplies I can take with me.

It is simply not possible for one man or even hundreds of men to "prevent" or "stop" the NWO, however it IS possible for one to resist the takeover and survive.



posted on Aug, 10 2007 @ 09:56 PM
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Simulacra's 24 hours have expired. He has forfeited this response. Don Wahn may proceed.



posted on Aug, 11 2007 @ 02:19 PM
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Being able to resist and survive the seizure of absolute power by the New World Order is a reality and can be achieved by anyone that chooses to take that path.


Originally posted by Simulacra
Being acutely aware of an ever changing political/social change is not survivalism. Besides, its not about surviving anything, its about preventing the NWO.


As I stated in my previous post, the issue at hand is ones ability to resist and survive the NWO, not stop and prevent the NWO. With regard to the above statement made by my opponent, I never stated that being acutely aware of political and social change was equal to survivalism. What I did state, maybe not in as great of detail as I should have, is that ones decision to abandon life as they know it and decide to brave the wrath of mother nature comes from ones view of the volatility and constant change of the political climate around them.

Obviously, if one day you go outside and walk to work and your commute is unimpeded, then that day you probably would not want to abandon all of your worldly possessions and take to the forests. Now, say that night you get home from work and on the news President Arbusto declares a national state of emergency, forces police and army into the streets of our nation, and then states that all money is useless and we have to be implanted with a microchip. At that point, being aware of the negative political climate around you may just cause you to change your mind and be a survivor rather than a follower.

The notion that abandoning all of your possessions to stay alive in the wilderness may seem absurd to people, but if you take into account the possible ramifications from NOT doing this, it seems like a perfectly good idea.

Reading up on survivalist techniques and studying the methods used to get certain results in the wild can make all the difference when making the decision to venture into the open expanse of nature. Knowing what you absolutely need and what you can do without would also help in your task of surviving. Simple items can mean the difference between life and death, while bringing trivial items may slow you down and impede your ability to hide and avoid detection.

In these situations, having a military background or experience outdoors is definitely a benefit, but by no means does not having either of these preclude you from being able to survive.

Survival is an instinct that we all have, it is just a matter of a situation bringing it out that causes us to implore its use.

The NWO is a likely end result for the global elite and it is simply a matter of time before most or all of their ideas and goals come to fruition. As I stated, as my references above noted, the timeline of the NWO coming to power is a lengthy one indeed. The gradual nature of these events being on other events has been going on for a long time. The change is not going to happen overnight, it will still continue to be slow and gradual. However, the NWO and its key players will continue to brainwash us all and make us believe that they are looking out for our best interests, when they will actually be stealing all of our God-given, unalienable rights from us, right from underneath our noses. and turning us into mindless NWO abiding slaves.

It is your own decision to judge the situations at hand and make the call, regardless of what the outcome might be. If you feel that staying involved in the worsening climate and increasingly tight NWO stronghold is beneficial for you, then that is your choice. But at that very same instant, it is also your right to judge for yourself that survivalist techniques must be used, then that is your queue to gather what you need and take to the new frontier for NWO survivors.

Hunting, gathering and foraging for food and shelter are not the preferred methods of the majority of inhabitants of planet Earth today, but given a persons will to survive, these traits WILL arise from their dormancy and aid us all in our quest to resist and survive the seizure of absolute power by the New World Order.



posted on Aug, 12 2007 @ 01:32 PM
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Originally posted by Don Wahn
Lets look at the question at hand...The question does not state that we have to be living in the NWO as we speak. It states that being well versed in survivalism will give you a good chance of surviving a seizure of absolute power.

No. It asks will survivalism aid in resisting the NWO. You stated that we're living in the NWO right now, yet you've just changed your definition. Stick with what you first told me, we're living in the NWO. In turn, if we're living in the NWO, survivalism is not a requisite to exist in these times since all of us are reliant on the 'system'


Originally posted by Don Wahn
To my knowledge, absolute power has not yet been seized from all citizens. Until that happens, it does not matter where I get my clothes or groceries from, what matters is that I am mentally and physically preparing for the time and date that absolute power is seized.

You've flip-flopped once again Don Wahn.


Originally posted by Don Wahn
We are living in times in which the NWO is gaining momentum towards their end goal which is the seizure of absolute power.

You're invalidating your argument. You previously stated that there is no agenda in place nor has there been one for years. How could the NWO gain momentum if there is nothing to work towards? Keep in mind, absolute power is an agenda. And how could survivalism repeal this empty agenda?


Originally posted by Don Wahn
No one knows when this will happen or what events will transpire leading to this, but given the track record of "events" that are to lead up to this end result, it appears that it WILL happen eventually. Until that "eventual" date when absolute power is seized, it would behoove one to become acquainted with being a survivalist so they could "resist" and "survive" the NWO and their agenda.

Why Don Wahn? You've never explained why or how NWO can repeal this? You just present a definition of the NWO and give survivalism as the solution. But how? How? That is all I ask.


Originally posted by Don Wahn
True that survivalism is a reactionary method to surviving disaster, but once absolute power is seized does this not constitute disaster (metaphorically)? If I want to survive the NWO then why would I NOT revert to the life of a minimalist?

Because survivalism is simply a way to cope with a variety of deprived elements in one’s life. Whether this deprivation is lack of running water, lack of shelter, lack of consumable food…etc., it constitutes a sense of surviving…not overcoming. To resist the NWO, one must overcome it, squelsh it. Not simply cope with it.


Originally posted by Don Wahn
You suggest unifying with others to take political action. This defeats the purpose of resisting and surviving. If your rights have been seized by a NAZI like government, then by showing support for a cause other than what is being commanded would surely get you locked or killed up for showing your dissenting opinion.

Are you serious? How has every revolution been established and ultimately successful throughout history? It’s not from a group of survivalist that waits for events to transpire, and then try to survive the end result. No, it’s from individuals that unite and work as a collective force first politically then continues to defy the unjust authority until a revolution, and ultimately a power shift occurs.


Originally posted by Don Wahn
Again, the question is not "How can I stop the NWO from happening". The question refers to one person being able to resist and survive the seizure of absolute power. To try and stop the NWO from happening, as it is happening would surely result in death or imprisonment.

Although I disagree with you, I will entertain your mode of thought simply to ask you what I’ve been trying to get at the entire debate. How will survivalism aid in what you stated?


Originally posted by Don Wahn
You keep referring to the prevention or stopping of the NWO, when the word "prevent" or "stop" is never mentioned in the debate question. The question is will being a survivalist help me "resist" and "survive" a "seizure of absolute power" not prevent and stop the NWO. If you pay attention to what is happening around you, then you should be able to successfully resist and survive, once absolute power has been seized. It is not a selfish act, it is simply thinking about how you can make it out alive.

Don Wahn. Just to make sure that you fully understand what ‘resist’ means, here is the number one definition from Dictionary.com:

re•sist-
–verb (used with object)
1. to withstand, strive against, or oppose: to resist infection; to resist temptation.

Once again, I pose the question show me how survivalism will resist the NWO? I’m really not asking for much for you just to address the debate question. You’ve given me examples of NWO and examples of survivalism, but you still have not linked the two.


Originally posted by Don Wahn
If a major catastrophe takes place, I am not going to try and help the millions of people in the same boat as me (I know, pretty selfish).

Yes a catastrophe implies a disaster. Absolute power is not a disaster, its absolute power.


Originally posted by Don Wahn
It is simply not possible for one man or even hundreds of men to "prevent" or "stop" the NWO, however it IS possible for one to resist the takeover and survive.

How? You tell me its possible, yet you fail to show me how it is possible.

Look, Don Wahn. I'm not attacking you. I just want to debate about how survivalism will assist in resisting the NWO. So far you've given me definitions of the NWO and definitions of survivalism.

Please, in your next post, address the debate question.



posted on Aug, 12 2007 @ 06:42 PM
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In closing, I would like to reaffirm my stance that conspiracy theorists who educate themselves in survivalism have a good chance of surviving and successfully resisting a seizure of absolute power by the New World Order, as I have done in my posts above.


Originally posted by Simulacra
It asks will survivalism aid in resisting the NWO. You stated that we're living in the NWO right now, yet you've just changed your definition. Stick with what you first told me, we're living in the NWO. In turn, if we're living in the NWO, survivalism is not a requisite to exist in these times since all of us are reliant on the 'system'


I never once stated that we are living in the NWO. Survivalism is not a requisite to live, however, being versed in survivalism will help you resist and survive a seizure of absolute power.

How could I flop when I have never flipped, Simulacra? I think you may have misconstrued some of my statements.


Originally posted by Simulacra
You're invalidating your argument. You previously stated that there is no agenda in place nor has there been one for years. How could the NWO gain momentum if there is nothing to work towards?


I am not invalidating my argument. There is no agenda in place that has been made apparent to the public on a mass scale. We see nothing that spells momentum out on mainstream television and news, because this is done behind closed curtains away from the public.


Originally posted by Simulacra
Why Don Wahn? You've never explained why or how NWO can repeal this? You just present a definition of the NWO and give survivalism as the solution. But how?


If the NWO wants to repeal everyones free rights/seize absolute power, they will just do so by imposing new laws away from the public eye. The Jews didn't ask Hitler how he was going to do the same thing to them. He just did it.


Originally posted by Simulacra
Because survivalism is simply a way to cope with a variety of deprived elements in one’s life. Whether this deprivation is lack of running water, lack of shelter, lack of consumable food…etc., it constitutes a sense of surviving…not overcoming. To resist the NWO, one must overcome it, squelsh it. Not simply cope with it.


Yes, survivalism is indeed a list of the above elements, however the question at hand is surviving it. Not squelching it or coping with it. Overcoming it is done through surviving by any means possible.


Originally posted by Simulacra
How has every revolution been established and ultimately successful throughout history? It’s not from a group of survivalist that waits for events to transpire, and then try to survive the end result. No, it’s from individuals that unite and work as a collective force first politically then continues to defy the unjust authority until a revolution, and ultimately a power shift occurs.


Yes, the survivalist will wait in the wings, resisting and surviving the takeover, while your group of revolutionists are captured, tortured and killed. If a dent is made he may just come out and reassess the situation, only to go back to surviving.

What still remains true is that resisting and surviving a seizure of absolute power by the NWO is indeed possible. I wish I had more time to debate, but I have said my part.

Thank you Simulacra, Vagabond and ATS for this fine debate.



posted on Aug, 14 2007 @ 04:56 PM
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My closing statement is not going to involve perpetual rhetoric nor is it going to employ theoretical circumnavigation.

Round 1. DonWahn v. Simulacra: Light-Blue Dawn

"Conspiracy theorists who educate themselves in survivalism have a good chance of surviving and successfully resisting a seizure of absolute power by the New World Order".


I don't understand why conspiracy theorists who educate themselves in survivalism would be any different than a normal person educating their self in survivalism. However, this still does not negate the fact that practicing survivalism is pointless in regards to the NWO. Survivalism will not prevent the NWO from obtaining absolute power.

From what I can discern from Don Wahn's argument, major points of his argument are:

- Provided that the individual is properly equipped and versed in survivalism will aid in resisting the NWO

The defining point of survivalism is that the person will not be properly equipped, hence he/she will have to revert to primitive and resourceful methods to exist in one’s environment. Having amenities is not survivalism, it’s living comfortably. Both methods of existence still fail miserably at resisting absolute power by the NWO.

- A constant reference to ‘personal freedoms’ and ‘god given rights’.

I believe Don Wahn is referring to such freedoms as:
- A right to vote
- A right to politically make a change
- A right to have your message heard

All of which will, theoretically be taken away (at least to some degree) with the administering of the NWO. However we still do not know exactly who or what the NWO is or what agenda they possibly have planned (as mentioned by Don Wahn). However, survivalism simply will not help in regaining these ‘personal freedoms’ mentioned by Don Wahn.

Don Wahn also mentions that these survival traits are based on instinct and arise from dormancy. He states the traits are innate. If this were so then How would being educated in them make any difference?

In fact, survivalism will only fuel the NWO, and here is why…

If everyone who is opposed to the NWO becomes survivalist (if such a feat is even possible), then the NWO simply becomes more powerful. There would be no political or military force organized by the people to stop such a force. If there is no resistance to the NWO, then survivalists have created a path in which absolute power can easily be exerted. Survivalism has always been and will always be a temporary practice. It’s a mean to temporarily survive with deprived resources in a, at times, hostile environment. With lack of medication and nutrients, the survivalist will be a dying breed. The NWO would greatly benefit from its citizens reverting to survivalism.

I still stand by my first statement in this entire debate:

“If one wanted to surely prevent a 'NWO', it would be through political action and uniting the people. Unity is what it takes to make everyone fully aware of a modern crisis such as an 'NWO'. Survivalism takes a selfish stance and forces an 'every man for himself' behavior.”

Don Wahn mentions Hitler in his example of absolute power, so I will extract on that definition of what an ‘absolute seizure of power’ relates to. First, I would like to state that this is a horrible example because Jewish people weren't being killed because they were standing up to the government; they were killed because of an immutable characteristic. Nevertheless, survialism simply did not serve a role in resisting absolute power by Hitler’s regime. Hitler’s absolute power was not resisted by forging in the woods or running away from authorities. However, don’t take my word for it, look it up in the history books to see how absolute power was resisted and eventually prevented in humanities timeline. It wasn’t from survivalism.

Another point that Don Wahn presents in his argument is

- The NWO has a hidden agenda, unknown to all.

This is an unreasonable assessment of the debate. It is illogical to state the NWO has a hidden agenda that no one understands but then Don Wahn rests on a multitude of assumptions that would require knowing the exact agenda of the NWO substantiate.

Of course knowing about survivalism would help one survive-- that's like saying one who goes to elementary school would have a good chance of being a literate adult. But will it aid in resisting the NWO? No it will not.



posted on Aug, 14 2007 @ 07:07 PM
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This one is off to the judges.



posted on Aug, 16 2007 @ 01:16 PM
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After careful deliberation, our judges have come to a decision. Simulacra is victorious. Here is what our judges had to say:


Both sides... generally missed what the debate was about until their closing posts.

Don Wahn was stronger at first, but even with Simulacra having to concede 1 round, Simulacra came back strong and cornered Down Wahn, and therefore won.



Don Wahn had a controversial position and he had to draw a picture of reality for us to prove his point. Instead he tried to simplify his position and this made it easy for Simulacra to play defense, just swatting down arguments piecemeal without having to build a credible defeatist worldview, which would have been more difficult.



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