It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

Round 1. nyk537 v. Esdad71: Government Isn't Free

page: 1
3

log in

join
share:

posted on Aug, 7 2007 @ 01:27 AM
link   
The topic for this debate is "The Federal Reserve, from its inception, has been a conspiracy to overpower the democratic system in the United States, and it should be destroyed".

nyk537 will be arguing the pro position and will open the debate.
Esdad71 will argue the con position.

Each debater will have one opening statement each. This will be followed by 3 alternating replies each. There will then be one closing statement each and no rebuttal.


A post may not be any longer than 5,500 characters, using the ATS character counter.
Closing posts may not be any longer than 3,500 characters.

This character limit includes all board code, links, etc.
Extra characters will be deleted from the end of your post.

Please notice that the character counter counts backwards. If for some reason your character counter won't let you post a full 5,500 characters in one post, make a second post to finish your 5,500, and then u2u me and let me know.


Editing is strictly forbidden. This means any editing, for any reason. Any edited posts will be completely deleted. This prevents cheating. If you make an honest mistake which needs fixing, you must U2U me. I will do a limited amount of editing for good cause. Please use spell check before you post.


Opening and closing statements must not contain any images, and must have no more than 3 references. Excluding both the opening and closing statements, only two images and no more than 5 references can be included for each post.


Responses should be made within 24 hours, if people are late with their replies, they run the risk of forfeiting their reply and possibly the debate. Limited grace periods may be allowed if I am notified in advance.


Judging will be done by a panel of anonymous judges. After each debate is completed it will be locked and the judges will begin making their decision. One of the debate forum moderators will then make a final post announcing the winner.

When this thread becomes unlocked, you may proceed.




posted on Aug, 7 2007 @ 11:31 AM
link   
I would like to take this opportunity to thank The Vagabond, as well as the wonderful staff here at ATS for giving us this opportunity to debate. I would also like to wish my opponent, Esdad71, the best of luck.

Ever since the initial creation of the Federal Reserve, the American working-class has been victimized by this government’s monetary policy. The average person’s purchasing power has been on a steady decline for decades due to the Feds inflationary tactics. It is quite clear that the Federal Reserve is a cancer to this country, and something must be done.

If you look closely, every major economic slide since the Great Depression can be traced to the policies of the Federal Reserve. This is due mainly to the consistent flow of easy money into the economy. The purpose of this is to create a sort of “bubble” in the economy. The Reserve can flood the market with money to design a spending boom, which is soon followed by a depression when this “bubble” finally bursts. This must not be allowed to continue.

The only way we can overcome this up and down economy caused by the Federal Reserve, is to completely do away with it. If we had a stable currency, it would give American citizens new reasons to save their money as they will no longer live in fear of inflation eating into their savings. It is easy to see that while the Federal Reserve harms the average citizen, it greatly benefits those in a position to take advantage of it. Those who benefit are the ones who have access to this easy money before the impact of inflation hits the entire economy. This is something we as American’s should not tolerate.

The best solution for this country is to abolish the Reserve and return to currency backed by something stable such as silver and gold. This is the way the Constitution of this great country meant it to be. The founding fathers meant for this country to be governed by a monetary policy where the value of money is consistent. The only way to make it consistent is to tie it to a real commodity such as gold. This is the basis of a democratic, free-market economy.

The only purpose the Federal Reserve has ever served is to destroy the democratic economy of this country. We must band together to take down this beast before it chokes the life out of our great land.



posted on Aug, 7 2007 @ 05:31 PM
link   
To nyk537, may insanity and compassion fill both our minds during this exchange. This is difficult since I think the Fed is antiquated, but then again I think credit scores suck and gold bars are too heavy to carry around. Thank you for the oppurtunity to be here. Let me address in my opening some fact and rebuttal. One with the show....


The Federal Reserve, or Fed as it is more commonly known, is the child of the National Monetary Commission . It was a plan to create and implement a complete change in the banking system in the United States based on the failure of the National Banking Act. This push was led by Republican leader Aldrich.

Two separate commissions were created to look at the current banking structure of the US and to research the composition of the European banking community in order to make informed decisions and implement changes for the good of the people of the country. Since it’s inception there have been call for reform based on the benefits provided to certain higher social classes, but can a rich man not spend the dollar printed by the Fed the same as a poor man? Regulation is the key to a continued lifecycle of the Fed in the United States.


Lessons learned during the Great Depression after poor policy making for the Fed included being a proactive power rather than a reactionary solution for poor money trends due to over industrialization, instability during wartime or simple inflation. They did not create the bubble that would have burst but instead let the banks fail during the Great Depression at a time when the amount of money in the reserve shrunk by a third in just one year. The country eventually recovered but the Fed is still blamed for not creating a sense of security at the cost of a greater loss in the future. To me, this shows insight and not the want to make money from the poor. How is this affecting the middle class man today?

The Fed control this with monetary policy, which is a slick way to say they can cause the ups and downs in the money market based on decisions made behind closed doors. This is not a government institution; however the president selects the members to their 14 year terms. They set the federal funds rate and the discount rate which in turn manipulate and effect the prime rate. This in turn affects the rates that the normal person would get for a car or home loan. But whether rich nor poor, it is the credit score not the Fed that determines what rate you are getting on the loan. Therefore, how is the Fed affecting the average man?



For the record, the Federal Reserve currently consists of over 11 billion dollars in gold. The constitution makes no mention of banking and credit card rates that I can remember, nor did it contain information on how much money the country should print. The founding fathers had nothing in place to accommodate the growth and expansion of the nation as it has become. The federal fund rate has dropped close to 16% in the last 20 years so there is no steady increase leading to more money out of the average mans pocket. Why is the criticism there and who is making the noise?


The Purpose of the Federal Reserve was to create a centralized banking system comprised of 12 separate arms that each could be regulated with none growing more powerful then the other, a system of checks and balances. The Reserve banks empower the member banks to allow us to do the simplest of tasks, such as paying for our internet to post this or getting a better rate on a refinanced mortgage.

The Federal Reserve, when governed properly as it has been, creates a balanced banking system for all. Where is the harm in that I ask? These are the first questions that I present....



posted on Aug, 8 2007 @ 09:14 AM
link   
My opponent seems to be missing the point here. He would have you believe that the Fed is perfectly innocent; that they aren’t out to completely control this country. He argues that the Fed is an insightful, balanced banking system that is in place for the good of the country. Let’s take a look at how he is wrong on all these points.

The point was made that the Fed is blamed for the Great Depression for not creating a sense of security. I’ll agree with him that while they did not cause the Depression, they made it worse by contracting the money supply at the exact time when the markets needed liquidity the most. Since the Fed’s entire existence was based on preventing events like the Great Depression, it had completely failed what Aldrich and the original 1913 bill tried to enact. This does not seem very insightful to me.

He also claims that the Fed is not a government institution, when its sole purpose is working hand in hand with the government, for the government. They print federal notes and “lend’ them to the government at extremely high interest rates. This is the sole purpose of the Fed. Since the Fed does not produce any goods or provide any services in exchange for charging interest, they are basically stealing from honest, hard working people.

My opponent constantly questions how the fed is affecting the “average man”. It is affecting them by completely destroying the value of the dollar. The Fed claims that their system was put in place to “protect” the dollar’s purchasing power. However, relative to its value in 1913, the dollar today is worth only four cents. This does not seem like an organization that is functioning for the interests of the people.

My claim that the Federal Reserve is unconstitutional was rebutted with generic statistics about the falling fund rate. This does not change the fact that the Fed is an unconstitutional institution. In the words of Senator Ron Paul, “The United States Constitution grants to Congress the authority to coin money and regulate the value of the currency. The Constitution does not give Congress the authority to delegate control over monetary policy to a central bank. Furthermore, the Constitution certainly does not empower the federal government to erode the American standard of living via an inflationary monetary policy”.

The point was made that the Fed, when governed properly, creates a balanced banking system for all. The problem is, however, is that it has never been properly governed. The only thing left for us to do as Americans is to abolish this terrible entity.



posted on Aug, 8 2007 @ 05:46 PM
link   
I have not led you believe anything, but I have shown that there is no true motive for the FED to control the monetary system to bankrupt the middle or lower class as my fellow debater has already touched on. I have shown that after studying the 2 major banking operations in the world at the time the best solution was taken and it has propelled this nation into one of the major players in world finance. I have shown that there has been no steady increase in the amount of ‘money’ that the FED is extracting from the common man, however at the same time the FED provides that common man the ability to have a bank account, a car loan, a place to live and a debit card to pay for his meals at McDonalds.



There is no insight to the FED and the Great Depression but a point made that during the first major breakdown of the US economy, the FED did not inflate it’s value to give a false sense of security allowing a country to further propel itself for greater fall. As a country we have learned and have grown from the early mistakes our forefathers made and again, act proactively to make sure it does not happen. What the bill enacted was not a safeguard from a major financial depression, but a way to regulate banking in America



My fellow debater would also like you to believe that the only thing that the FED does is print money and loan it out. Where does the money go and who is tracking it?

You see, The Federal Reserve returns its net earnings to the US Treasury every year. Also, the interest the Treasury pays to the Fed is returned so in affect the money borrowed from the Fed has no net interest obligation for the Treasury. If we allowed the government could print its own currency independent of the Federal Reserve there would be no effective safety net against abuse of this power for political gain. In order to make sure the checks and balances are in place, Independent firms conduct financial audits of the Federal Reserve banks and the elected Board of Governors every year. The Federal Reserve is also reviewed within certain types of audits from the Government Accounting Office.




A dollar is now only worth four cents? Hmmm, and gas used to be 12 cents a gallon and a meal was 49 cents. Now you cannot get an extra value meal for less than 5 dollars. It is not the federal reserve who caused this but the commercialization and extended buying power given to the average man. It is not the FED who put a starbucks on every 3rd corner in every city in the US. The value of the dollar is not influenced only the the FED. They make recommendations known as monetary policy which govern interest rates. Where as the fact that these are determined by just over a dozen people may cause concern and this is where the conspiracy will begin to perpetuate. The common man again is not held back by the FED, but by the banking institutions themselves who will no allow the prime rate suggested by the FED for a car loan based on a bad credit rating.



Unconstitutional? You are correct that the constitution does not grant the ability to create banks, but Congress is given the right to regulate the money used in those banks based on the US Constitution. They did not define the word value in the text but give no basis for that value. The constitution also grants Congress the ability to regulate interstate commerce, so there is another reason that the Federal Reserve is truly not unconstitutional. In the case of McCulloch v. Maryland (1819), and in the words of Chief Justice Marshall who sat the case “After the most deliberate consideration, it is the unanimous and decided opinion of this court that the act to incorporate the Bank of the United States is a law made in pursuance of the Constitution, and is part of the supreme law of the land” The Court affirmed this opinion in the 1824 case Osborn v. Bank of the United States. This gives precedence that the Congress, empowered by the Constitution, has the power to regulate US currency. Ron Paul needs a better speech writer.




Congress, private banking firms and the GAO were originally used for the auditing and the review of the Federal Reserve. In 1978, Congress passed the GAO, (Government Accounting Office) Act that would make the FED from that point forward. Since it’s inception, it has performed over 100 audits of the Federal Reserve in the past 30 years, which would average out to 3 times a year. The FED is required to submit financial records twice a year to Congress also. Now, an average of 3 GAO audits per year and bi-annual congressional review to me does not sound like lack of properly governed banks, does it?

The FED was created to make sure that the government did not control all the money but it according to the Constitution Congress has the ability to regulate. This is a perfect form of checks and balances. The FED is not the problem, it is the greed of the private banker who makes the dollar worth less. When you buy a car and drive it off the lot, it loses its value immediately. That is not the FED, but the global economy itself making it harder on the common man. Paying 6.00 dollars for a gallon of milk is not the FED, but it makes it harder on the common man. The FED however can attempt to control that inflation and does with decisions handed down to financial institutions and adjusting the prime rate. Can my opponent give me an option to the Federal Reserve System that is now in place?

(this post has been edited to remove a typo of significant effect)

[edit on 8-8-2007 by The Vagabond]



posted on Aug, 9 2007 @ 08:39 AM
link   
My opponent has once again rebutted my claims that the Fed needs to be abolished by repeating the same points. He has attempted to use United States court cases as examples for why the Fed is Constitutional, when in fact those cases have no relevance at all. Both the cases used as examples by my opponent were tried nearly 100 years “before” the creation of the Fed, and were describing the Bank of the United States as a Constitutional entity, not the Fed.

He would also have you believe that the Fed is an entirely transparent and fairly regulated firm, when in fact they have very secretive, closed door meetings. They then hold the minutes and transcripts from these meetings for a period of at least five years before releasing them. Also, prior to 1994, the Fed flat out refused to release transcripts, even under the Freedom of Information Act. When a judge ordered the transcripts released, the Fed claimed they had stopped taking them at all. Then in 1993, Representative Henry Gonzales confirmed that the Fed did in fact have transcripts, and could have complied. They chose however to misrepresent their existence and ignore questions from Congress.

Now, to avoid falling into a repetitive cycle of debate, I will proceed to answer the final question of my opponent, and explain a viable option to the Federal Reserve System that is now in place.

My answer to this is simple; we can return to the gold standard. It has been three decades since the dollar’s tie to gold was cut off. There is no supply of gold currently held by the Fed or the Treasury that backs our currency system. The government does own gold, but not as a monetary asset; it owns gold the same way it owns everything else. It is just another asset the government keeps to itself. Currently, the dollar is nothing more than what it appears to be: a fancy piece of linen paper. You can exchange this for goods or other currency, but there is no established exchange rate between the dollar and gold.

You might wonder why the gold standard was done away with. Quite simply, government destroyed the gold standard. They did this because they regarded it as too inflexible. Without the ability to create money out of nothing, the government would have to run too tight a financial ship. Banks are also more careful about lending when they can’t rely on a lender with access to a money making machine like the Fed. With a fixed money stock, the problems of inflation disappear. In fact, under the gold standard, increased market productivity causes prices to decline over time as the purchasing power of money goes up.

When money is backed by something as solid as gold, the government cannot manipulate the supply for its own agendas. A gold standard puts limits on the government’s ability to spend and borrow money. It is forced to raise its revenue through taxes, not inflation. Without the gold standard, government is free to work with the Fed to inflate the currency without limit. Under the gold standard, the supply of money regulated itself. The government was forced to operate within limits, and banks were more careful. Savings were much higher because credit was tight and saving money was actually rewarded.

Is it possible to get back to the gold standard and the way things were? Yes. We could redefine the dollar in terms of gold. Then interest rates would reflect real supply and demand, and not an imaginary number. We could completely abolish the Fed and never again worry about how they could change our economy. The only thing keeping the gold standard from becoming reality again is the love of big government. Gold and freedom go together. Gold money is both the result of freedom, and one of its main protectors. If we ever get our country back from politics and big government, the topic of the gold standard will once again become a hot topic in public debate.



posted on Aug, 9 2007 @ 12:23 PM
link   
It is time to seperate fact from fiction.

I have only provided case information on how the Fed is regulated not only by Congress, which is constitutionally correct, but the GOA as well. This has occurred for the last 30 years. In order to find answers and show progress, one must look to the past to not make the same mistakes. I wanted to first show that the FED is legal as Mr Paul want you to think otherwise along with many anti-government institutions and thinkers.

One reason that it should not be abolished is that it is currently held in balance with the separation of this entity from the US government. If the US government was in control of the monetary policy there would be no oversight. They would have complete control as you would have with a gold standard. In the case of the Fed, this is delegated by the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System who appointed by the sitting president. The term is 14 years and they can only serve one term. This shows that there can be no political or bipartisan control as most representatives span the era of many presidents and work independently after appointment.



Wikipedia is a good resource, but look a little deeper and you will see the truth to the secret dealings that go on ‘behind closed doors’. Many meetings are held in private and this is a fact. The minutes are not released for five years, and this is also a fact. The FED did refuse previous attempts in the 70’s, but that was 40 years ago. Currently they are obligated to turn over the minutes within the span directed and comply. Many industry analysts, including the current chairman Ben Bernanke, state that the release of these materials or speculation on “Fed speak” as it is called is not good for the economy as a whole. Investors and banks can react to misinformation and cause financial worries for the common banker. Monetary policy is set in place to be a detriment to inflation, not to cause inflation. In fact, take a moment and read the minutes of the FOMC from, gasp, last year.

www.federalreserve.gov...

Where is the conspiracy? Here, these were released not within 5 years but five weeks of the meeting last year.

www.federalreserve.gov...

There is nothing to hide. It is all there in black and white. The days of the Rockefellers and their boys deciding the fate of a pre WW2 era United States behind closed doors is no longer an issue. The internet is fascinating. One cannot judge an entity only on past performance, but can use that knowledge to make it better. This is the current role of the FED. In his “The Great Moderation” speech, current chairman Bernanke stated that “Whether the dominant cause of the Great Moderation is structural change, improved monetary policy, or simply good luck” it is ” This conclusion on my part makes me optimistic for the future, because I am confident that monetary policymakers will not forget the lessons of the 1970s.” They have learned and they are working to make sure that the financial worries of the past do not once again come to light.


Two financial institutions at different times actually came to the same conclusion about the gold standard as related to the Great Depression and the change in the global economy shifting from the gold standard. It seemed that the longer that a country remained committed to gold, the deeper its depression and the later its recovery. This led many countries who held onto the gold standard to take longer to recover post WW1 and into the 1930’s. The finding that leaving the gold standard was a key to recovery from the Great Depression was confirmed by the U.S. President Roosevelt eliminated the U.S. monetary policy created by the gold standard, first by allowing the dollar to float and then by resetting its value at a significantly lower level. He called what was known as a ‘bank holiday’ in which no bank could reopen without meeting FED standards that it was a sound financial institution. With the gold standard constraint removed and the banking system stabilized, the money supply and the price level began to rise. Between Roosevelt's coming to power in 1933 and the recession of 1937-38, the economy grew strongly. That fancy linen paper bought out country back faster and stronger than those who tried to remain with the gold standard. This proves that it would be non-advisable to return to a standard that has proven no merit in modern society for banking.

Now I ask, would removing the institution of the Federal Reserve be beneficial when history has proven otherwise? You would restrict growth and increase unemployment which has been shown to occur when the monetary policy is not adjusted for inflation. This was proven in the 70’s as previously mentioned. My question is, who would regulate the exchange and value of gold? The government? An appointed body? Whether it is fancy linen banknotes or gold bars, someone has to assess the value. Is it global? Local? National?

Guidance is needed to point the economy in a direction for growth, and that is the monetary policy. The average man is not poor because of closed door dealings, but because of consumer demand and greed. The government is not fleecing you with the prime rate, Citigroup is with your 21% interest rate. The FED is not telling you to put that 42 inch HDTV on your Best Buy card at 17%, you are making that decision. The federal reserve does not need to be abolished.

(This post violated the 5500 character limit and has been trimmed from the end.)

[edit on 10-8-2007 by The Vagabond]



posted on Aug, 10 2007 @ 09:10 AM
link   
It seems we have become stuck here. My opponent has not presented any new information, but instead continues to repeat the same propaganda he has been “fed” by the Fed. I’d like to take this opportunity to step back, and provide a fresh new look at the Fed, so that you may garner a deeper understanding of why this organization is attempting to strangle the life out of our great country.

All misconceptions aside, the Fed “is” a central bank. Central banks were created to implement a country’s fiscal policies. They monitor commercial banks, and do business such as currency transactions, with other central banks. In theory, a central bank should be good for a country. They are not, however, when they are not owned or controlled by the government. Private central banks, just like our Fed, operate not for the interest of our country, but for profit.

Now, we already agreed that the Fed did not directly cause the Great Depression; but did they help get us out of it? The Fed could have pumped lots of money into the market to stimulate the economy and help the country, but did they? Instead they restricted the money supply very severely. Why would the Fed do this? During that period of depression, asset values and stocks were at rock bottom prices. Who do you think was buying all this at pennies on the dollar? I am sure this practice is known as “consolidating the wealth”. How many times do you think the Fed has done this? How can you be sure they won’t do it again?

Let’s take a look, for example, at today’s economy. Markets are currently declining. The reason for this is because the Fed has been very liberal with its money. The market has also been hyper inflated. Inflation is caused by the fed, who deals with inflation by restricting the money supply. What have we learned happens when they do that? The market collapses.

Even our local banks are affected by the Fed. Since they are all members of the Fed Banking System, it is legal for them to create money from nothing and lend it to you. Let’s say you are approved for $10,000 dollars to purchase a car. Obviously you know the bank doesn’t take $10,000 dollars cash from their stack and put into yours. They simply transfer the number into your account on a computer. Basically they are creating, from thin air, a debt, which you have to repay “with” interest.

Another little piece of information you may find interesting goes hand in hand with our discussion of interest and taxes. Take a wild guess as to when the income tax was created. OK times up. If you guessed 1913, the exact same year the Fed was created, you deserve a cookie. What are the odds of this? If you are going to use the Fed to create a debt, you are going to need someone to repay that debt. The income tax was created by the same individuals who created the Fed, to complete the facade that real money had been lent, and therefore real money needed to be repaid.

So again I ask, what can we do about this? If we as a country don’t take action now, there may come a time “we as a country” no longer exist. Article 1, Section 8 of the US Constitution specifically states that Congress is the only body that can “coin money and regulate the value thereof”. This Constitution has never once been amended to allow for this delegation of our currency regulation. Yet we continue to allow it to happen. So how is it possible for the Federal Reserve Act of 1913 and the Fed it created, to be constitutional?

Thomas Jefferson said it best, “If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issuance of their currencies, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all their prosperity until their children will wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered”.

It appears Thomas Jefferson saw this coming 150 years ago. Why then can we not see now what is in store for us if we allow the Fed to continue controlling our country?



posted on Aug, 10 2007 @ 11:57 AM
link   
I have not become stuck, you have. You stated that the abolishment of the Fed is what is needed for the country, stated we needed to return to the gold standard and initially backed it up with a quote by a presidential candidate that was proved incorrect in his statement. I provided a new look, and old look, and the history of the FED. I explained and gave evidence when requested and provided the information that you stated is kept ‘secret’. I have shown in black and white what the FED is. It is a centralized banking community that is governed and regulated by Congress and the US government Accounting Office. It is not strangling the nation but trying to save it after big business has over extended itself with loans to the common man who tries to live outside his means until he can declare bankruptcy.

The FED is a central bank and it is regulated by the US government for auditing purposes only, not decision and policy making. Lets make that clear because it is a little fuzzy when you read my opponents words. Congress enables the FED to continue to publish the money that is needed and grant the loans to float our nation to enable the common man to continue to live day to day on credit cards and short-term loans. There is no ‘profit’ to be made by the FED, on a stable economy.

Yes, the FED and the US government got out of the Great Depression by abandoning the gold standard that you were suggesting we move to. The FED restricts/floods the marker with money to make sure that spending is controlled and that inflation does not grow rapidly out of control. It is a simple model that when paired with the prime rate allow the economy to not bubble or to go flat. As you referenced in todays economy, the FED helped us with a billions of dollars post 9/11 when not only the US but the global economy came to a standstill. The nation after quarterly losses, layoffs, rising inflation and poor job markets has finally risen to a point of a growing economy once again, and this was directly affected by the adjusting of the prime rate and the restriction of loans. Today, we are facing a crisis because of poor lending practice and foreclosures that cannot be covered and loans are coming due. The economy is collapsing and that is why the FED released over 30 billion dollars in the last 2 days to work proactively, as I stated in my first post, to make sure that another Great Depression does not occur by non intervention from the FED and trying to clean up afterward.

In response to your example of the FED, an auto loan is a note, and has nothing to do with the FED except the interest rate you get on the car, which if at prime should be about 5 ½ right now.Instead, you are charged 15% because you did not pay a doctor bill 4 years ago. This is not the FED, it is corporate greed. The corporations are not following the guideline that is set by the FED as a ‘normal’ interest rate because they have to make some money on the money they borrowed to ‘float’ to you for your new SUV. This argument was why to abolish the FED, right?

Another law passed in 1913 was to require U.S. Senators to be elected in each state and not in a popular vote. I figured I would put in a cool fact since you decided to include the information about the creation of Income Tax the same year and attempted to connect the two with a veiled reference to show some type of conspiracy. Remember, the FED has actually been around since 1862 in one form or another and it was only 1913 it was finally put in action.

You asked what we as a country can do to make sure that we will continue to exist? Stop the raping of the average consumer’s bank account with outrageously priced items that they are driven to buy that we do not need to survive and are used to only enhance our short term needs and wants. As far as the constitution, Congress is the only body who can “coin money and regulate it”, which they do by enabling the FED to do their job “with” Congressional oversight and independent audits.

Thomas Jefferson also said once ‘He who knows nothing is closer to the truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods and errors”, and that is what this debate is about. It is about not remembering what someone said on talk radio, what was printed on the latest right/left wing rag or your favorite extreme website. Research a subject with a clear mind, absorb the knowledge and use only that which is applicable until it is needed.


We are not a slave to the FED, the FED is a slave to us and with proper regulation as today has shown is actively present by our congress we should continue to grow as a nation and feel minimum impact from inflation caused by the bankrupting of big business and the collapse of wall street. The days of the Federal Reserve bieng a punching bag for all of the countries problems are over.

I feel that I have not been given sufficient proof that the FED should be abolished nor that we would be better off without it based on the fact that there has been no solution that can be applied that would fit the modern era we live in. The FED will not make our men and women of this nation homeless, sub-prime mortgages will.....



posted on Aug, 10 2007 @ 02:22 PM
link   
In closing I would like to once again thank Esdad71 and The Vagabond for allowing us to have this most interesting debate. My opponent has argued his stance ferociously and with great effect, and I commend the effort. However, no amount of Fed propaganda will change what I have shown here. The Fed is an unconstitutional, privately operated central bank with the sole purpose of overpowering the democracy of the United States of America.

I have shown that the Fed was created with personal interests in mind, and continues to operate with the same selfish principles. I have offered irrefutable evidence that the Fed has a history of secrecy and dishonesty that has left a stain on the economy of this country. While my opponent has made many excellent points during the course of our debate, he has yet to prove to me beyond the shadow of doubt that the Fed is a constitutionally sound entity.

I would like to leave you with the words of the honorable Louis T. McFadden. McFadden served as Chairman of the Banking and Currency Committee for more than 10 years, and was the best informed man on these matters in America when this comment was made on the floor of the House of Representatives. Due to the fact this comment, among others, are set out in full in the Congressional Record, they carry weight that no amount of damning on the part of any one individual could hope to carry.

“Mr. Chairman, we have in this Country one of the most corrupt institutions the world has ever known. I refer to the Federal Reserve Board and the Federal Reserve Banks, hereinafter called the Fed. The Fed has cheated the Government of these United States and the people of the United States out of enough money to pay the Nation’s debt….This evil institution has impoverished and ruined the people of these United States, has bankrupted itself, and has practically bankrupted our Government. It has done this through the defects of the law under which it operates, through the maladministration of that law by the Fed and through the corrupt practices of the moneyed vultures who control it”.

Thank you very much for you time.



posted on Aug, 10 2007 @ 04:01 PM
link   
Before completing the tirade that shall commence, I would like to thank nyk537 for the compelling arguments and the ability to not sway. I would also like to thank the Vagabond and the rest of the ATS family. Now, on with the show.

Correct in stating that no amount of propaganda can change what you have shown, I chose to only provide fact, which you have chosen to ignore. I have referenced the constitution of the United States as well as laid out the changes made to ensure full congressional oversight in the last 30 years. The FED is not destroying or overpowering democracy in America, it is keeping it afloat.



You continue to state the personal interests of the FED but cannot provide hard information. There is nothing selfish in attempting to counter the sway of domestic and foreign markets to make it affordable to live in our country, which is what monetary policy strives to provide. A previous history of secrecy has been broken with more oversight by the GOA and Congress as well as independent audits, newer technology and the availability of meeting documentation to remove the clouded delusions of the 70’s era closed door meetings. No amount of doubt can be removed until one first sees the problem with clear eyes.


I find it odd that again you must use an antiquated quote from a man who not only once served on the banking commission and ‘bathed in the riches’ as you would want one to believe the FED does. I myself would have exploited the fact that attempts on his life after his outspoken comments on the FED and his ensuing lawsuits gave credit that there may at one time have been dealings that would show those who may be associated with the FED behind the scenes in a bad light.

The Federal Reserve was created and has proven to be a proactive resource for the continued stability of the Banking System of the United States. Empowered by congress and our own constitution, it forges forward to provide the security and appointed resources to safeguard the United States from the economic implosions of the past. Our country, contrary to popular belief is still growing and the FED has helped in this endeavor. The GNP of the US is 10 times that of China and people are worried the dollar is weak and the gold standard is needed. Can you still tell me it is not working?

I will finish with a modern quote from Ben Bernake, the current chairman. He has stated that the FED is there to make sure that if there is a crash on Wall Street, that it does not find Main Street also. The FED is not there to protect the investor. He stated, and I quote.

“Over the years, the U.S. economy has shown a remarkable ability to absorb shocks of all kinds, to recover, and to continue to grow. Flexible and efficient markets for labor and capital, an entrepreneurial tradition, and a general willingness to tolerate and even embrace technological and economic change all contribute to this resiliency.”

Thank you, and have a pleasant tomorrow.



posted on Aug, 10 2007 @ 05:33 PM
link   
Alright this one is ready for the judges.

(If anyone saw my previous post at the end of this thread, which has been deleted, please disregard it. quote was pressed instead of edit- the matter will be corrected momentarily)



posted on Aug, 16 2007 @ 02:05 PM
link   
This was an amazing debate and very close, but alas there can be only one winner, and that was Esdad71.

We look forward to seeing nyk537 in future debates.


While both sides did an excellent job, I feel that esdad71 was able to refute many of the claims presented by his opponent and present convinving arguments for his side of the debate.



Esdad has done a far better job of taking the bull by the horns and indeed has managed to make the money grubbing devils seem like perfect angels out for nothing but the good of the Nation that is the U.S of A and for that I award my vote to Esdad71



This was a stellar debate for both fighters. Given the chance, I'd keep them both in the tournament. It's seriously to the credit of Esdad71 that he kept me on the fence despite my immense distrust of the fed. I think that breaks the tie in my mind- Esdad71 wins.



I had a lot of troubles with this and trying to pick one. But I'm going to give it to nyk537.

I give him the win because his opponent did waver from the topic in most of his posts, and at times I was growing bored with the history lesson. Even though he refuted his opponents stance as best to his ability, his going off topic was his downfall in my opinion.

Both deserve it, but only one can win. I give it to nyk537.



This one was a beauty. I could see both sides. Nicely played by both members. You guys are FIGHTERS! I had to go back to the original question to make a determination on this debate:

"The Federal Reserve, from its inception, has been a conspiracy to overpower the democratic system in the United States, and it should be destroyed".

Tough one. Thanks guys for making me think on this. Well debated.

The winner in my mind is nyk537.

Esdad71, well done. Keep it up.



new topics

top topics



 
3

log in

join