The effects of hurricane Katrina on the north ward of New Orleans were severely worsened by a government conspiracy, one I would call “A Conspiracy
of Neglect”.
The Army Corps of Engineers authority over river works in the United States began with its fortification of New Orleans in 1812.
During the American Civil War the New Orleans quite a few levees were destroyed to aid in military activity. Since the people couldn't pay for the
repairs themselves the delta was overflowed almost every year. Until 1866 when a State Board of Levee Commissioners took over. Then another flooding
happened in 1867 after which a State Board of Public works took over the job of rebuilding the levees and yet it was never finished.
Another flood happened in 1871.
In 1958 a project was started called Mississippi River Gulf Outlet (MRGO).
MRGO is a 60 mile 500 ft wide 36ft deep shipping channel going from the Louisiana coast to the Industrial Canal in New Orleans. It was completed in
1968. The benefit of this MRGO would be that the St. Bernard parish would have more growth, ships, docks, wharves, business and prosperity for a mere
$95 million.
The bad part was that in 1965, hurricane Betsy came through raising the levels of the MRGO. The levees broke and water went into the lower 9th ward.
It also causes 35 acres a year to disappear from the wetlands.
In time there were occurrences of subsidence of the levees. They were patched up with the porous soil dredged from the river to save money even though
the civil engineers recommended to use a less porous soil.
The people of New Orleans have asked the Corps numerous times to fix the levees. Every year repair was held back due to “lack of funding”.. At the
time of hurricane Katrina the levees should have been at a hight of 17ft but some were to be found at 6.6ft. That 6.6 ft would not hold back a
category 1 hurricane. That is why I am saying yes, it is a Conspiracy of Neglect.
Round 1. EvilBat v. Tuning Spork: There Goes the Neighborhood, page
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)reply posted on 8-8-2007 @ 09:30 PM by Tuning Spork
What we are debating here is a simple question: Were the effects of Hurricane Katrina on the Ninth Ward of New Orleans severely worsened by a
government conspiracy? My esteemed opponent posits that the answer is yes, and opens this round by citing two relevant quotes to support that
position. (I'll ignore the Hillary quote since I have no idea what it's context was.)
While those two quotes are meant to bolster the case for the resolution, the quote from James Joyner does not support the resolution. Joyner simply accused the Louisiana politicians of bad judgement, not malice, as his concluding remark illustrates: "Obviously, they guessed wrong–with tragic consequences.” Former Senator Breaux's comment, likewise, speaks of "hindsight". But, since we are dealing with the aftermath of Katrina, let's spend this installment examining that aftermath.
For this second round, EvilBat makes two basic assertions: 1) that government officials treat the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina as a money making scheme and, 2) that the federal government is used money meant for aid, for other things.
As for point #1: While EvilBat sites no specific examples to back up the claim that officials were trying to make money off the clean-up, I can refute it with one glaring example of blowing just such an opportunity.
There were an estimated 50,000 destroyed and/or abandoned vehicles in New Orleans, largely in the flooded 9th Ward. A Texas auto crushing company offered Mayor Ray Nagin $100 per vehicle -- "as is, where is" -- to tow and crush the vehicles, a deal that would have netted the city an estimated $5,000,000. Instead, Mayor Nagin opted to pay, with city funds, towing contractors in Georgia, then Alabama, $23,000,000 to get the job done.
Far from this being a government conspiracy, the Georgia contractor, in fact, is currently being sued by the federal government for fraudulant claims of it's personnel and equipment.
On point #2: EvilBat claims that "FEMA was given $2,000 debit cards that were intended to pay for necessities but instead they bought TV's and other luxury's. Some of them even got themselves tattoos and seasonal sports events tickets." But, in fact, the $2,000 debit cards were handed out, over a two day period, to displaced victims of the hurricane, not to FEMA employees.
Some New Orleans refugees did, indeed, spend their aid money unwisely. (And at least one debit card issued by the Red Cross, who instituted a similar plan, was fraudulantly debitted after a photo of it was printed in the media.) But this is fraud by the victims themselves, and doesn't fit the bill of a government conspiracy that severely worsened the effects of Hurricane Katrina on the 9th Ward of New Orleans.
As for the claim that FEMA was billed for up to $400,000 per mobile home built to house hurricane victims, the only mentions of this that I could find all lead back to an op-ed peice in The Wall Street Journal.
But, assuming that's a true story, we're talking about private contractors defrauding the federal government, not the government defrauding the victims of Hurricane Katrina and severely worsening their plight.
So, where did all the money go? Into the pockets of hurricane victims and the contractors that were paid to make their situation better. While it may seem at times that defrauding the government has become a national pastime, there is no evidence that a government conspiracy has negatively effected the Nine Ward of the city of New Orleans.
While some fraudsters and hucksters may have made money in it's wake, the flood and it's victims have been helped by the assistance that made it's way to them, no matter what it cost the rest of us taxpayers.
While those two quotes are meant to bolster the case for the resolution, the quote from James Joyner does not support the resolution. Joyner simply accused the Louisiana politicians of bad judgement, not malice, as his concluding remark illustrates: "Obviously, they guessed wrong–with tragic consequences.” Former Senator Breaux's comment, likewise, speaks of "hindsight". But, since we are dealing with the aftermath of Katrina, let's spend this installment examining that aftermath.
For this second round, EvilBat makes two basic assertions: 1) that government officials treat the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina as a money making scheme and, 2) that the federal government is used money meant for aid, for other things.
As for point #1: While EvilBat sites no specific examples to back up the claim that officials were trying to make money off the clean-up, I can refute it with one glaring example of blowing just such an opportunity.
There were an estimated 50,000 destroyed and/or abandoned vehicles in New Orleans, largely in the flooded 9th Ward. A Texas auto crushing company offered Mayor Ray Nagin $100 per vehicle -- "as is, where is" -- to tow and crush the vehicles, a deal that would have netted the city an estimated $5,000,000. Instead, Mayor Nagin opted to pay, with city funds, towing contractors in Georgia, then Alabama, $23,000,000 to get the job done.
Far from this being a government conspiracy, the Georgia contractor, in fact, is currently being sued by the federal government for fraudulant claims of it's personnel and equipment.
On point #2: EvilBat claims that "FEMA was given $2,000 debit cards that were intended to pay for necessities but instead they bought TV's and other luxury's. Some of them even got themselves tattoos and seasonal sports events tickets." But, in fact, the $2,000 debit cards were handed out, over a two day period, to displaced victims of the hurricane, not to FEMA employees.
Some New Orleans refugees did, indeed, spend their aid money unwisely. (And at least one debit card issued by the Red Cross, who instituted a similar plan, was fraudulantly debitted after a photo of it was printed in the media.) But this is fraud by the victims themselves, and doesn't fit the bill of a government conspiracy that severely worsened the effects of Hurricane Katrina on the 9th Ward of New Orleans.
As for the claim that FEMA was billed for up to $400,000 per mobile home built to house hurricane victims, the only mentions of this that I could find all lead back to an op-ed peice in The Wall Street Journal.
But, assuming that's a true story, we're talking about private contractors defrauding the federal government, not the government defrauding the victims of Hurricane Katrina and severely worsening their plight.
So, where did all the money go? Into the pockets of hurricane victims and the contractors that were paid to make their situation better. While it may seem at times that defrauding the government has become a national pastime, there is no evidence that a government conspiracy has negatively effected the Nine Ward of the city of New Orleans.
While some fraudsters and hucksters may have made money in it's wake, the flood and it's victims have been helped by the assistance that made it's way to them, no matter what it cost the rest of us taxpayers.
reply posted on 9-8-2007 @ 03:11 PM by EvilBat
As I have said before, neglect comes from not only federal government but also from the local government: a government of elected officials that also
includes the mayor, and people that are in charge of the wards.
For many years they have neglected the levee repairs, allowing shabby workmanship, or simply ignoring the problem. It is the responsibility of the government, Fed to local, to maintain the levees, not the people. When the people have to hire civil engineers to check the work of the Army corps to show the work is wrong and they don't fix it, that is neglect.
From National Geographic link
New Orleans' Levees: Can Disaster Strike Again?
May 16, 2007 “The U.S. Army Corps of Engineers declared almost a year ago that it had restored the barriers to pre-Katrina strength. But leading experts from the U.S. and the Netherlands say the system is riddled with flaws. They say that even a weaker storm than Katrina could breach the levees if it hit this season.”
Here are a few promises from Bushes speech 9/15/5 link
Are these promises fulfilled? No. Why? Because they have “more important things to do now”.
From a news story with Barack Obama, posted on Jul 14, 2007, link
“Approaching the second anniversary of Katrina that rocked New Orleans in 2005, many are still homeless; some are still living in government trailers and others scattered across the country. Rents have skyrocketed in New Orleans, jobs are scarce and crime is rampant. “
Hurricane Katrina Victims, One Year Later: Neglect, Heroism and Despair link
Seems to me, that if the Government was doing its job, people wouldn't still be complaining and other officials wouldn't be trying to get things fixed. If the government was doing what they say, wouldn't the levees be in better condition?
The peoples needs are not being met, just skirted around. I agree the mayor did a horrible thing to the people and the money should have been used more wisely, as he neglected his duties. I have no idea why elected officials do this but they do. They have been doing this for many years. If they had made a better system, as they promised back in 1958 with construction of MRGO, then there wouldn't be problems like there are today with the north ward.
For many years they have neglected the levee repairs, allowing shabby workmanship, or simply ignoring the problem. It is the responsibility of the government, Fed to local, to maintain the levees, not the people. When the people have to hire civil engineers to check the work of the Army corps to show the work is wrong and they don't fix it, that is neglect.
From National Geographic link
New Orleans' Levees: Can Disaster Strike Again?
May 16, 2007 “The U.S. Army Corps of Engineers declared almost a year ago that it had restored the barriers to pre-Katrina strength. But leading experts from the U.S. and the Netherlands say the system is riddled with flaws. They say that even a weaker storm than Katrina could breach the levees if it hit this season.”
Here are a few promises from Bushes speech 9/15/5 link
Are these promises fulfilled? No. Why? Because they have “more important things to do now”.
From a news story with Barack Obama, posted on Jul 14, 2007, link
“Approaching the second anniversary of Katrina that rocked New Orleans in 2005, many are still homeless; some are still living in government trailers and others scattered across the country. Rents have skyrocketed in New Orleans, jobs are scarce and crime is rampant. “
Hurricane Katrina Victims, One Year Later: Neglect, Heroism and Despair link
Seems to me, that if the Government was doing its job, people wouldn't still be complaining and other officials wouldn't be trying to get things fixed. If the government was doing what they say, wouldn't the levees be in better condition?
The peoples needs are not being met, just skirted around. I agree the mayor did a horrible thing to the people and the money should have been used more wisely, as he neglected his duties. I have no idea why elected officials do this but they do. They have been doing this for many years. If they had made a better system, as they promised back in 1958 with construction of MRGO, then there wouldn't be problems like there are today with the north ward.
reply posted on 10-8-2007 @ 10:19 PM by Tuning Spork
The term "a conspiracy of neglect" has, indeed, become a somewhat oft used phrase. While it may seem poetic (and even rhetorically
useful because it can evoke a psychological response), is the phrase any more accurate than any other contradictory phrase, such as "hurry
up and wait"? As Linda Richman once said on an episode of Coffee Talk, "The Holy Roman Empire was neither holy, nor Roman, nor an empire.
Discuss."
Far from the government turning it's back on New Orleans in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina, an unprecedented response was launched by FEMA, The Red Cross, as well as the governments of not only Louisiana, but of many, many other states; most notably, Texas.
The debit card programs, and the direct deposit program that immediately followed, helped evacuees with some personal needs that they were not being assisted with directly. Remember, New Orleans, alone, had a population of about 450,000 that needed to be temporarily relocated in a hurry. Add to that the surrounding areas as well as the areas whose structural damage was done by the hurricane's winds themselves rather than the breach of the levees; most notably, Biloxi, Mississippi and her outlying areas.
The almost immediate creation of the Gulf Opportunity Zone was, and is, a major effort to provide "immediate incentives for job-creating investment, tax relief for small businesses, incentives to companies that create jobs, and loans and loan guarantees for small businesses, including minority-owned enterprises, to get them up and running again. It is entrepreneurship that creates jobs and opportunity; it is entrepreneurship that helps break the cycle of poverty; and we will take the side of entrepreneurs as they lead the economic revival of the Gulf region." -- George W Bush, 15 Sept 2005.
Were there mistakes along the way? Sure. Could more have been done? Well, more can always be done. But neglect? I saw just the opposite. I saw and read the stories of dislocated New Orleanians taking up residence in private homes in states from Massachussetts to California. And none of them had to hitchhike to get there.
The response was monumental, not neglectful. It eased the severity of the victims' predicament and improved their prospects for a prosperous future and, therefore, could not be called a "conspiracy of neglect" -- or any other conspiracy -- that "severely worsened" the unfortunate situation caused by Hurricane Katrina.
Far from the government turning it's back on New Orleans in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina, an unprecedented response was launched by FEMA, The Red Cross, as well as the governments of not only Louisiana, but of many, many other states; most notably, Texas.
The debit card programs, and the direct deposit program that immediately followed, helped evacuees with some personal needs that they were not being assisted with directly. Remember, New Orleans, alone, had a population of about 450,000 that needed to be temporarily relocated in a hurry. Add to that the surrounding areas as well as the areas whose structural damage was done by the hurricane's winds themselves rather than the breach of the levees; most notably, Biloxi, Mississippi and her outlying areas.
The almost immediate creation of the Gulf Opportunity Zone was, and is, a major effort to provide "immediate incentives for job-creating investment, tax relief for small businesses, incentives to companies that create jobs, and loans and loan guarantees for small businesses, including minority-owned enterprises, to get them up and running again. It is entrepreneurship that creates jobs and opportunity; it is entrepreneurship that helps break the cycle of poverty; and we will take the side of entrepreneurs as they lead the economic revival of the Gulf region." -- George W Bush, 15 Sept 2005.
Were there mistakes along the way? Sure. Could more have been done? Well, more can always be done. But neglect? I saw just the opposite. I saw and read the stories of dislocated New Orleanians taking up residence in private homes in states from Massachussetts to California. And none of them had to hitchhike to get there.
The response was monumental, not neglectful. It eased the severity of the victims' predicament and improved their prospects for a prosperous future and, therefore, could not be called a "conspiracy of neglect" -- or any other conspiracy -- that "severely worsened" the unfortunate situation caused by Hurricane Katrina.
reply posted on 10-8-2007 @ 10:39 PM by EvilBat
From the beginning, the neglect has presented a “snowball effect” that over the years has resulted in severe degradation of the levees' ability
to perform the function for which they were intended. Even though countless times, it was brought to the attention of the Army Corps of Engineers,
they still did not heed the warnings and effectively turned their backs on the people of New Orleans..
There is a class action law suit in the works against the United States Government and Army Corps of Engineers:
link
“ This action results from one of the most predictable and preventable catastrophes in American history- The tragic devastation of homes and lives during the Hurricane Katrina – caused by the United States Army Corps of Engineers” negligent design, construction, maintenance, and operation of the Mississippi River Gulf Outlet (“MRGO”) “
These are sufficient “eye openers”.
Here is the Mississippi River Gulf Outlet “Deep-Draft De-Authorization Interim Report to Congress” by the Army Corps in Dec 2006
link
Hmm...MRGO is being closed.
In closing, I would like to say, people need to wake up.
Thanks for the debate.
There is a class action law suit in the works against the United States Government and Army Corps of Engineers:
link
“ This action results from one of the most predictable and preventable catastrophes in American history- The tragic devastation of homes and lives during the Hurricane Katrina – caused by the United States Army Corps of Engineers” negligent design, construction, maintenance, and operation of the Mississippi River Gulf Outlet (“MRGO”) “
These are sufficient “eye openers”.
Here is the Mississippi River Gulf Outlet “Deep-Draft De-Authorization Interim Report to Congress” by the Army Corps in Dec 2006
link
Hmm...MRGO is being closed.
In closing, I would like to say, people need to wake up.
Thanks for the debate.
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