Round 1. Justin Oldham v. D.E.M.: Nazi Secrets

The topic for this debate is "Nazi Germany developed or was in the process of developing advanced technologies which remain classified to this day".

Justin Oldham will be arguing the pro position and will open the debate.
D.E.M. will argue the con position.

Each debater will have one opening statement each. This will be followed by 3 alternating replies each. There will then be one closing statement each and no rebuttal.


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During the course of World War Two, scientists loyal to the Nazi regime in Germany were tasked with the development of strategic weapons which might turn the tide of war in favor of the Axis. U.S., British, and Russian intelligence officers warned their respective governments that these "super weapon" programs were under way. The most formidable of these technologies were thought to be in the areas of Rocketry, Aviation, and Nuclear Physics.

As the German war effort faultered, the regime in Berlin shut down and eliminated many of its most questionable and least efficient research programs. As early as 1944, American, British, and Russian military planners were scheming to get their hands on Germany's research data, and its many skilled scientists and engineers. Each of these governments developed their own capture programs, such as "overcast" which was implemented by the United States in 1945 under the directives established for "Operation Paper Clip."

Paper clip was run by the Joint Intelligence Objectives Agency,cl from 1945-1962. During that time, its administrators and staff handled the importation of German scientists and engineers in to the United States, in spite of their questionable backgrounds and loyalties. In many cases, these experts brought with them charts, diagrams, and working prototypes of their experimental technologies.

Operation Paper clip was exposed in 1973. and it has been reported on many times since. Much of the technology that was developed with the assistance of the Nazi scientists is still classified. Key components and theories regarding nuclear weapons, space flight, and atomic physics remain cloaked in secrecy to this day because the winners of World War Two resorted to questionable means to obtain them.

We will not know the full extent of the Nazi technology harvest until all of the historical participants are long dead. The ruthless nature of Hilter's regime and the shadowy behavior of the Western powers after the war are still popular with conspiracy theorists today. Full disclosure may eventually be possible when FOIA statutes of limitation on secrecy have expired, or when more of these closely guarded tech secrets are introduced to the public for commercial or military use.

Ladies and Gentlemen, my Esteemed Opponent, how can i argue such a position? It is well known that Nazi scientists were indeed working on Advanced technologies, Technologies that (had they completed them), would have turned the tide of the war in their favor. However, despite the "advanced" nature of these technologies, none of them remain classified.

Consider the German nuclear program, researching a technology and weaponry that would have been considered "advanced" for its day, is today not classified in the slightest. In fact, the Heavy water test reactor at Haigerloch is now a Musuem.

However, let us also address the problems of the "radical" technology that Germany has been claimed to have possessed. Time travel? UFOs Where would they have obtained the knowledge for such breakthroughs? If the Nazi's could not complete a simple nuclear reactor by the end of the war, much less perfect a missile capable of striking Britain at a distance, what flawed logic gives rise to the idea that they had stumbled upon time travel and anti-gravity?

Yes, Nazi scientists were smuggled out of Germany under operation paperclip, however anyone with an Internet connection can go and look at the types of projects they worked upon afterwards: The space program, Nuclear proliferation, Lockheed's jet programs.

Every time you look at at images of a space launch, you are seeing the end result of Nazi research programs. Every time you board a jetliner to take a flight across the country, you are flying because a Nazi scientist was smuggled out of Germany. Does this seem like classified technology to you? Yet, it is the extent of what the Nazi's could scrape together before they were crushed

The Internet is a wonderful thing, ladies and gentlemen, and in this day and age of global knowledge, of the ability to launch a program and see anywhere on earth in detail, of the ability to (with enough effort) access the most secure databases on the planet, it is unreasonable to assume that supremely advanced technologies remain hidden from us. If the Nazi's had technology as advanced as some have claimed, we would know by now, because somewhere in the past 70 years, someone would have spilled the beans with enough evidence to back it up.

Yes, the Nazi's were developing advanced technology, but no, it is not classified, and in fact, is no longer even "advanced" by todays standards. In reality, it is part of our everyday lives, and hundreds if not thousands of our fellow humans are employed using it every day for the benefit of mankind, and some of it, such as Jet engines and Long-range rockets are easily within the range of the average person to create, due to the de-classified and easily obtainable nature of their designs.

Thank you.

What does it mean when a government declares a document, project, or agency to be "top secret?" It is generaly accepted that 'classified' assets, programs, and personnel are off limits to the average person. This need for limited access stems from the fact that at least one government agency has determined that its in the nation's best interest to keep the precise details associated with a person, place, or thing, under wraps so that they can't e acted on or duplicated.

In the case of known persons and technologies, restricted access is necessary for personal safety and national security. it is generally accepted that known persons and projects have the highest acquisition priority for foriegn governments and their intelligence/espionage agencies. In the case of Nazi scientists and the projects they are associated with, secrecy was and still is employed by the countries that harvested German genius after 1945.

Just because a specific theory, technology, or production program is known to exist doesn't mean that it can't be classified. All nations posessing nuclear secrets guard them closely...no matter how they got them. Access is restricted to nuclear technologies because the governments which have them don't want their non-nuclear opposition to know how to build atomic devices.

The nuclear theory and fissile material research pioneered by the Nazi regime is still dangerous in the wrong hands. As a purely practical matter, the exact mechanics and engineering requirements needed for any military grade device are tighly guarded by all the governments that have them...no matter how they got them--because--they won't mind if you know they have the A-bomb. They just don't want you to build one which might be used on them.

When it comes to the race for space, many nations proudly display their aerospace accomplishments. They just won't tell you how they developed and built them. In the same way that privately held corporations are propritary about their build specs, so too are governments when it comes to their state-funded space programs...no matter how they got those efforts started. As a purely practical matter, the internet provides easy access to what a thing "is," but you won't always be able to find out how certai nthings are actually made or used.

Any government which finds itself in posession of radical technologies...no matter how they got them...will often want to minimixe access and they'lll even go so far as to deny the existence of said theories, devices, or programs. Its not unreasonable to suggest that some governments go out of their way to sew disinformation about radical technologies to draw attention away from other secrets.

Knowing that certain Nazi technologies exist is one thing. Protecting their production specifications is something else, especially when advancing technologies continue to make theories in to realities. Any idea, in the wrong hands, is dangerous to the nation when its enemies can act on they've learned. Most especially if they can actually build and use previously classified technologies to their own advantage.

The specter of disinformation makes even the most ardent conspiracy theorist take what they learn--or what they suspect--with a grain of salt. The ideas that gave birth to the theories which conceptualized many of the secret Nazi weapons of World War Two can be thought of as impossible...for the moment. Those radical lines of reasoning may have come from flawed men who served a questionable cause, but that doesn't excuse the governments who have them under lock and key from keeping them out of diabolical hands. No matter how they got them.

The Nazis may have failed to build many of the things they conceived, but that doesn't make their theory work any less dangerous in the wrong hands. It's worth noting that many of the 'failed' Nazi inventions were later perfected and put in to production inside countries which had been bold enough to sieze them in the first place. In a world where nations compete with each other for supremacy, "the wrong hands" would be any country that seeks to defy, defeat, or destroy your own. The simple truth is that we won't know how many of those wonder weapons are now real until we see them in action. Secrecy really does matter, even when it relates to Nazi engineering.

The problem with the argument that it is in a countries best interests to classify Nazi technology, is that the technology in question is now almost 70 years out of date. It would serve little purpose, in this day and age of instantaneous information; to conceal such details when anyone with a university education can go online and gather the information required to develop such things.

What can we define “classified” as? The dictionary defines it as:
a. Available only to authorized persons.
b. Confidential, or secret.
But using this definition, what factors about the “secrets” which we obtained from the Nazi’s, would be worthwhile to keep “secret” until now? Were they even “secrets” by the time we acquired them? Or were they merely things we had already discovered?

The nazi’s were involved in research primarily in the areas of aircraft, rocketry, and atomics. Jet engines, as I have previously demonstrated, can be developed by anyone with moderate talent in engineering and a home workshop. Rocketry and by proxy space flight, are well within the arena of the private citizen, as shown by the amazing amount of entries (and attempts to win) the X-prize for private space flight. On that note, what would be so classified when an advanced example of modern rocketry technology - the patriot missile – shows up in a junkyard? I would hardly call that classified.

The point is that anything the Nazi’s stumbled upon 70 years ago would hardly be worth classifying today. Why? Because despite the Nazi’s having a nuclear program, the results of that program can be likened unto a babies first steps compared to the adult strides the USA took in the same time. And in this day and age, neither is classified. The mechanics of how to build an H-bomb are easily sought out; it is merely that the process requires thousands of hours of intensive manpower and vast resources that deters the average person from building one.

Consider the Children’s Atomic Laboratory, distributed in the 60’s, or the case of the radioactive Boy Scout, in the mid nineties. In the former, a company actively distributed kits containing samples of uranium-232, and associated experiment booklets. In the case of the RBS, a young man tried to build a ray gun using radium refined from paint from old clocks. In both cases, nuclear knowledge was demonstrated to be freely available to even the youngest of people. Hardly classified.

The bottom line is, that anything the Nazi’s would have developed or researched in the 1940’s would not be secret in the slightest today. Why? Because most, if not all, of the technological secrets of the United states following WWII are now public domain under the freedom of information act, and (as anyone knows) most of the Nazi developments were incorporated into our own technology shortly after the war. In the case of their atomics sector, the developments were little more than notes that we had already written ourselves months or years beforehand.

Originally posted by D.E.M.
The problem with the argument that it is in a countries best interests to classify Nazi technology, is that the technology in question is now almost 70 years out of date.

When a government makes the decision to classify any sort of technology, it is doing so to prevent the spread of that information and its associated industrial and infrastructure requirements.

Originally posted by D.E.M.
It would serve little purpose, in this day and age of instantaneous information; to conceal such details when anyone with a university education can go online and gather the information required to develop such things.

A casual internet search reveals that production-grade technical specifications for some of the most common technologies are NOT commonly available. Generalized diagrams are useful to the curious and to the general researcher, but they are of no use at all to anyone who is actually trying to reproduce items like jet engines, rockets, and nuclear devices of the medical or military kind.

Originally posted by D.E.M.
But using this definition, what factors about the “secrets” which we obtained from the Nazi’s, would be worthwhile to keep “secret” until now?

Governments and corporations alike go to great lengths to guard proprietary information. Complex technologies, no matter how old, can still be hard to reproduce without exacting knowledge. The heavy water process known to enable the refinement of uranium is closely associated with the Nazi nuclear program. It is generally regarded as "common knowledge," in spite of the fact that there are no publicly available engineering specifications which might allow an enterprising person to construct their own processing plant. Why? Because the real nuts and bolts of that technology are...classified.

Originally posted by D.E.M.
The point is that anything the Nazi’s stumbled upon 70 years ago would hardly be worth classifying today.

The Nazi regime performed ground-breaking work in many fields. Conspiracy theoriests around the world are still trying to peel back the layers of secrecy surrounding such developments as anti-gravity, energy weapons, and radical energy solutions. Any one of these technical secrets would still be worth keeping today.

Originally posted by D.E.M.
Because despite the Nazi’s having a nuclear program, the results of that program can be likened unto a babies first steps compared to the adult strides the USA took in the same time. And in this day and age, neither is classified. The mechanics of how to build an H-bomb are easily sought out; it is merely that the process requires thousands of hours of intensive manpower and vast resources that deters the average person from building one.

Any nation or corporation that seeks to develope nuclear technologies must take those first baby steps. It's worth noting that The Iranians have taken such "small steps" such as a 1930's tech Heavy Water plant on their own journey towards nuclear capability. This would be just one example of how an "old" technology is still hard to come by.

The 'process' of building a hydrogen bomb involves nuclear theory which dates back to the Nazi era. Those math equations make it possible for the needed parts to be built to exacting stnadards which can't easily be met. Please remember that ideas (theory) can be classified just as easily physical technology can.

Originally posted by D.E.M.
The bottom line is, that anything the Nazi’s would have developed or researched in the 1940’s would not be secret in the slightest today.

The assertion that NONE of the Nazi technologies would still be classified is overly broad. As we've demonstred here with the examples of heavy water and bomb production--not to mention anti-gravity and energy weapons--age does not have to be factor when it come to government secrets. Sometimes, the oldest secrets are some of the best.

A casual internet search reveals that production-grade technical specifications for some of the most common technologies are NOT commonly available. Generalized diagrams are useful to the curious and to the general researcher, but they are of no use at all to anyone who is actually trying to reproduce items like jet engines, rockets, and nuclear devices of the medical or military kind.

In my first post, I included a link to a website which included an in-depth analysis and tutorial on how to build a Jet engine. I have also mentioned the X-prize, in which the private sector engaged in space-capable rocket construction. While both are on-going designs, they emphasize my point that the private sector does indeed have the knowledge in its hands to construct such things. If the technology were as heavily classified as is thus assumed, would these attempts be succeeding as easily as they are? Remember, even a “generalized Diagram” can be the spark necessary to light the proverbial fire. Once a technology has been duplicated in the publics eye, is it really still “classified”?

The heavy water process known to enable the refinement of uranium is closely associated with the Nazi nuclear program.

The fact that the Nazi’s attempted to construct a heavy water reactor to refine uranium does not mean that the heavy water process is “closely associated” with the Nazi’s experiments. Who do we instantly think of when the terms “nuclear” or “atomic” are spoken? Generally, the United States, or Russia. Why? Because they are the ones who are well known to have pioneered Nuclear technology. The Nazi’s, sadly, failed to even initiate a reaction at their test reactor, resulting in the Nazi nuclear program falling to the memories of the history books for what it was: a failed experiment.

The Nazi regime performed ground-breaking work in many fields. Conspiracy theorists around the world are still trying to peel back the layers of secrecy surrounding such developments as anti-gravity, energy weapons, and radical energy solutions. Any one of these technical secrets would still be worth keeping today.

If the Nazi scientists had discovered such Radical, (and I stress, Radical), technology, would they not have attempted to use it, in any means possible? If the regime, by the end of the war, possessed ANYTHING that would have given them the upper hand, then it is quite safe to say that rather than focusing their efforts and resources on the development of simple (in comparison) technologies, they would have re-focused all of their R&D sector into the creation of something, some weapon, that would take advantage of these incredibly advanced developments. Instead, however, the only technology that ever came out of germany was, as has been stated, Jet engines, Rockets, and some nuclear secrets we already possessed.

Yes, an idea can be kept secret just as easily (probably far more easily) than working technology can. However, secrets of that nature only remain so for so long. In 70 years, a secret of such a monumental nature as the claim of Antigravity, Energy weapons, or Radical energy solutions would not just have been leaked, it would have been implemented in a wide variety of items. There is no logical reason to claim that such technology, (if we follow the claim of the theorists that the Nazis possessed at least a working knowledge of it), would not have been advanced to a working state, if not perfected, since the cessation of the war. If such was the case, it would now be seen in things that we view every day, especially in industry and Aerospace, sectors that would see the greatest benefit. As an example: Why use thousands of tons of Rocket fuel, and thus waste precious resources and money, when an anti-gravity item would lessen the amount of fuel needed by factors of ten?

A problem exists, however. The problem is that humanity, during the time of the Nazi regime, simply was Not advanced enough to make such discoveries on their own. Let us look to the example of the breaking news a few days ago, where scientists just recently discovered how to make atoms levitate by reversing a magnetic force. This discovery took almost a century of the growth of a knowledge base of atomic physics before it could be made. Who could argue that a scientific group that could not even duplicate the secret of initiating a nuclear reaction, would stumble upon a discovery like antigravity, which would also require deep knowledge of atomic physics? The very idea that the Nazi’s were this advanced, when their opponents who possessed considerably more resources were not is, sadly, rather laughable.

It is generally accepted among most historians that Nazi scientists pushed their technical genius to radical heights. From the relative safety of their laboratories, classrooms, and test ranges, they generated cutting edge concepts which required more time, effort, and resources than they expected. it has been asserted by some very keen minds that the German leadership didn’t press these inventors hard enough to come up with more working systems in a shorter period of time. This bureaucratic failure, combined with the rapid conclusion of the war, resulted in a great deal of incomplete work.

Conspiracy buffs are in general agreement that most of the Nazi technology that is still under lock and key today remains “on the drawing board,” or in prototype state because it hasn’t yet been made to work as envisioned. The idea example, discussed at length here on ATS, might very well be the early work done by Nazi scientists in the field of Gravitics. As the linked article suggets, anti-gravity is still out of our reach. To remain competitive, the U.S. government must keep secret what little it knows about this technology.

I'd like to make one last observation about the Nazi technical secrets that are still classified. Most of them are industrial in nature. Some are not. A few of them relate to medicine. Some relate to the mind, others to the body. Eugenics and mind control have been studied off and on in the United States for the last six decades. A great deal of what we think we know about these dark technologies is...still classified.

The ideal example, discussed at length here on ATS, might very well be the early work done by Nazi scientists in the field of Gravitics. As the linked article suggests, anti-gravity is still out of our reach. To remain competitive, the U.S. government must keep secret what little it knows about this technology.

But then, how do you explain the Foo-fighters phenomena experienced by both sides during the war? Are these lightweight, exceedingly fast, and miniaturized craft not evidence that the Germans did indeed have working prototypes of their anti-gravity technology? If so, then they would have put such technology to use, if so, then we would have concrete evidence of such things. Solid artefacts of that nature cannot remain secret for almost a century as has been shown in the past. If not, then another answer presents itself: the foo-fighters were aliens, delivering the technology that the nazi’s are claimed to have possessed. Of course, this means that the nazi’s then would not have been responsible for the invention and “development” of this technology, and explains why it was still in such an infantile state: they did not know what to do with it, and could not develop it. Far-fetched? No more than claiming that the Nazi’s mysteriously had a wider knowledge base to make these marvellous advances with than modern day humanity does…

I'd like to make one last observation about the Nazi technical secrets that are still classified. Most of them are industrial in nature. Some are not. A few of them relate to medicine. Some relate to the mind, others to the body.

By making such broad and detailed observations as to the specific nature of the Nazi technological secrets that supposedly exist, it is implied that the information regarding them is so easily available that you are able to make these categorizations. Does this seem so “classified” if the definition of “Available only to authorized persons” for the term “classified” is to be taken literally? Are you claiming to be an authorized person?

Closing Statement:

When the Nazi regime went to war in September of 1939, the western powers that comprised “The Allies” were unprepared to do battle with Germany’s technologically driven army. Time and time again, British and American troops found themselves pitteda gaisnt new and improved German technologies. In spite of gross inefficiency, and massive Allied air bombardment campaigns, the Nazi bureaucracy still managed to fund, research, and manufacture some of the most advanced weapons and industrial components the world has ever seen.

Early victories lulled Nazi planners in to a false sense of security, which lead them to slow or stop many of their most advanced research efforts. It is for this reason that most of their greatest efforts failed to reach completion, production, and implementation. As discussed in this debate, many of these theorems and technologies were far ahead of their time. Many of their best ideas were simply too advanced for the day. Too ambitious for the timeframe in which they were needed. That’s why their achievable super weapons arrived on the battlefield too late to change the course of the war. Had they beeen less ambitious and a bit more practical, things might have turned out differently.

Germany’s most high-profile super weapons are those which they themselves managed to build. We know twhat they’re called, and we know their purpose; in spite of the fact that actual engineering and industrial specifications remain classified. Their most radical concepts are, even today, still out of reach. It says a lot about the extent of their genius that conspiracy theorists on ATS are still trying to learn the full extent of the nazi research programs. Americans, in particular, are still eager to revisit “operation paper clip” and its associated programs. Time and time again we dig in the hopes of uncovering more of the secrets still kept from us by the U.S. government.

It’s hard for many to conceive that the Nazi regime could’ve spawned anything that might still worth keeping secret. It’s been sixty-two years since Hitler’s reign came to an end. The simple truth is that Britain, Russia, and the Untied States “acquired” Nazi technology by questionable means. Admitting to what they have (no matter how advanced) would force them to admit how they got it. Because the Nazis resorted to unethical practices in the pursuit of their wonder weapons, it is generally accepted that those scientific discoveries are...no matter how advanced....“tainted.”

The Allies aren’t just keeping technical secrets until they can figure out how to exploit them. They’re trying to avoid the judgment of world opinion which already looks unkindly on what they’ve done with the most well-known and high-profile of Nazi medicine and technology., It’s not germane to this discussion, but it is worth noting that more than a few of the nazi technologies came in to being throughteh use of forced labor and involuntary experimentation.

The “national interest” argument, as proven here, demonstrates that we’re not going to know the full extent of classified Nazi technologies until they’ve all been mastered, or rendered obsolete due to superior break-throughs in government-sponsored research or private sector ingenuity. I’d like to finish up by thanking D.E.M. for his carefully considered responses in this debate. Who knows? We may have inspired somebody to go looking for some of that Nazi technology that is still classified.

I would like to begin my closing statement by thanking my opponent, Justin Oldham, for his exceedingly well written arguments, coming up with refutation has been harsh, and i wish him the best of luck in he future.

Ladies and Gentleman, in 1918, we had just begun to develop the aircraft. WWI was fought in planes that were little more than canvas and balsa wood. The weapons on them? Sometimes merely pistols. On the ground, soldiers used bolt-action rifles. On the sea, the ships were powered by steam and fueled by coal.

Following their defeat in WWI, Germany was plunged into chaos. It was cut into pieces, denied an airforce, and its most rich and profitable resource area's were either placed under French control completely, or watched over and persecuted by the French. Germany was also forced to pay 132 billion marks in reparations. What happened because of all of this? Germany fell, and it fell hard. Due to expotential inflation, German currency became basically worthless over night. Germany, it seemed, was a broken country.

When Hitler came to power, it took all of the effort that he could muster to bring Germany back into the world as a fighting force. They were a decade behind other countries in technological advancement, and were still crushed economically. But somehow he managed to bring them back up to par as the worlds most fearsome fighting force, and in record time.

What is being highlighted by this history lesson is that, yes, the Germans did indeed perform miracles by advancing their technology as far as they did, Yes, they could have gone even further, but that Niether the resources, the knowledge base, nor the ability to create such miracles as anti-gravity or beam weapons were within their grasp.

Ladies and Gentlemen, we live in a world of advanced technology, a world humanity has begun playing with the fabric of the universe itself. Yet, it was only a few mere weeks ago that researchers were able to divine a way to make two particles, two of the smallest units of matter (let alone a craft of some sort), levitate. To come to this discovery took centuries of collecting every scrap of knowledge that we have on the workings of the universe.

In closing Ladies and Gentlemen, can you (in all and perfect honesty) claim that an industrially broken, financially destitute nation that was more concerned with genociding its population, could come up with advanced technologies that would remain classified even now? Can you say that a country that could not even create working Nuclear or Jet technology, would have the capability of stumbling upon anti-gravity? Can you say that a mere 20 years after fighting in the same fashion that humans had for a thousand years before, the ageless attack and retreat, that they would be perfecting such radical and almost Fantastical technology?

Thank you for your time.

Outstanding work gentlemen. The judges will now decide on a winner.

The winner is Justin Oldham.

Here's what the judges had to say:

they did not seems to really go after the other arguments untill the very end.

On that note I give the win to DEM. While both fighters articulatied their respective positions DEM's seemed to be more on point.

DEM carried himself pretty well against a tough opponent, and early on, when Justin was softening his position with less exotic technologies, I thought DEM could smash him if he really tried.

The tide began to turn in Justin's 3rd and 4th posts, when he went for the more radical technologies that were on the drawing board. That was important, because the only thing that really made this debate fair to Justin's side at all was the "in the process of developing" clause.

DEM shot himself in the foot in his 4th post. Admitting to the existence of foo-fighters and then making a very weak explanation of how they would not be German in origin was very bad for his case.

I overall had to give my vote to the side of Justin Oldham, though I found D.E.M.'s ability to hold his ground
on this subject well done. It was a pleasure to read this debate and participate in the judging.

Justin Oldham gave us many more sources to check out, which did improve his quality of debate by quantity of information, along with quality. A large factor of my decision was based upon certain points brought up by Justin Oldham, one of the most poignant that struck me was that Iran is indeed building a reactor that would have been build by someone like us back in the first half of the century

[edit on 16-8-2007 by The Vagabond]