Dogs...good or bad idea?

en.wikipedia.org...

I'd go for some sort of mutant shepherd or shepherd mix. Shiloh Shepherd, most probably. But yeah...definitely get them to Schutzhund ASAP

DE

Bug-out-Dog?

I was talking with my father about the idea of re-designing a dog-jacket to carry his photographic gear (tripod etc) and I wondered if anyone had considered the idea of using the faithful hound as a pack-mule to carry extra survival/BoB gear?

I would bring along my German Shepherd. Although she has not been trained in schutzhund she is a very smart girl. She has the ability to sniff out whatever it is I show her. I can take her toys, treats, and other things and hide them from her, let her sniff the scent on my hands and she will find it. I am sure in a survival situation with some fine tuning she would be able to hunt down prey. She is definitly a watch dog, and if she hasnt met you before and I dont let you in the house you'll find yourself stuck in a corner with her barking and not letting you past until I tell her it is ok.

I personally would recommend getting a dog from a shelter/rescue. Mainly because they will be your companion for life. When you take a dog out of that hell hole they will repay you for it their entire lives. I got my shepherd at a year old, she had no formal obedience training and was aggresive towards all other dogs. Within 3 months she can now walk off of a leash, play at the dog park, and is as obedient as could be.

I noticed a lot of people mentioned a husky, while a great choice (I have one also) it is not the dog I would choose for a few reasons. The first is that they are runners, when you let them off of the leash they tend to bolt and go their own way, they are stubborn, and one of the most difficult breeds to train. Not to mention the husky is extremely friendly, unless the potential attacker is allergic to dog saliva I dont think she would pose much of a threat. A GSD would be able to do just as much physical labor as a husky, afterall its a working dog.

My biggest concern would be feeding the dog. My GSD weighs 80 lbs and eats 40lbs of food/month. No she is not over fed like most dogs in america, her measurements are exactly what they should be for her breed.

To sum up my post I would take my GSD for these reasons:
-- tracking and hunting ability
-- obedience
-- shes a swimmer
-- she loves the snow
-- she has been hiking with me on some pretty serious rocky terrain
-- protection
-- intimidation
-- companionship

There is a reason that more often than not seeing eye dogs and K9's are GSD's.

My opinion may be a little biased but I have had experience with many of the breeds mentioned in these posts.

And to close, I would die beside my dog from starvation before I even thought of eating her.

kaferwerks says: "the key is to have a well trained dog...then almost any(even a real poodle) would do just fine."

This, I think is the key point. And your dog would have to be trained to do the sorts of things you'd need for the day when the SHTF. Schutzhund or Ringsport training (at which GSDs and the Belgian breeds excel) would be ideal, but be prepared to put in a pile of time and money to get a title in those sports, and then you need to continue the training to keep the dog's responses crisp. But then, in any survival situation, both the dog and the human's training is going to make the difference.

And if the feces hit the turbine and I had the option of taking any dog in the world with me, it'd probably be this guy. But then, I'm partial to the Belgian breeds, as I have a Tervuren at home.

reply to post by shadow_soldier1975


I would have to agree, I adopted a Husky/Akita mix and they are damn good Dogs.

Ain't nobody sneaking in here and he is not afraid to scrap.

[edit on 20/8/2007 by SButlerv2]

If you do take a dog and your on foot you may want to start training them now to pull a cart. See link

K-9 cart training

My Dog and I are working on this one. She is being stubborn as usual but she will get it.

Jack Russel.

Defensively not going to take down a man but they dont know there own size and will take on anything. This may be a help if you encounter other dogs especially bigger dogs because you would be surprised at a jack russels ability to exert there dominance over much bigger dogs.

They are also extremely good hunters of rodents (what they are bred for) also not bad at catching birds. They are quick, agile, alert, EXTREMELY intelligent, EXTREMELY brave, boundless energy, require little food, hardy and have good vision at night.

Ive watched a documentary about an adventurer who walked from the bottom of Australia to the top of Australia through the middle of Australia. Now those of you not familiar with Australian geography may not appreciate this feat but this is probably one of the toughest things you could do due to the tough desert and arid landscape your walking through. Hot by day i.e. up to 55 degree heat and freezing by night. All this time as his companion on this adventure was a female jack russel which managed the trip with ease, happy and content. Constantly warning him of a pack of wild dingos following him by barking and chasing them off, eventually he had to shoot the alpha dingo.

Now i doubt many of the big dogs suggested in this thread could ever manage long trips and would soon become a liability. Remember your big dog may be fine running around down the beach or hunting if you had driven it to that location but have you ever walked it there? Do you expect your dog to be able to walk hundreds if not thousands of kilometers? I guess it really depends on the location, its hot and dry where i live. If you wanna bug out somewhere in my country its probably going to be a hot place you go to and very far away.

In my opinion most of the dogs that have been suggested seem to be big gaurd dogs. I dont really see how there going to fend for themselves thus they would quickly become a liability if you had to traverse land on foot accompanied by the dog to get to your bug out location. How are you going to feed it? I would go with a 'natural' hunting dog (not a retriever or dog that goes and fetches your ducks after you've shot them) but a dog that can actually fend for itself. A work dog bred for running all day long everyday would be another good option (not a gaurd dog that sits in your back yard and comes with you on holidays every now and again).

Im sure alot of you are thinking yeah ill take my hunting (retriever) dog with me and he/she will be a big help when I'm shooting wildlife for food as they can retrieve. Do you really think you have enough ammunition to be killing your food with bullets? Can you afford to be firing your gun giving away your location? I hope your using a crossbow. Unless you can drive these gaurd/hunting dog breeds to your bug out location i doubt they will be of much help during the trip. I also foresee that you will be walking on foot to your location cars will be a precious commodity as well as a beacon to other desperate survivors/baddies. They also heat up during the day and would show up on Thermal Imaging I wouldn't want a car within 50km of my hidey hole . I also foresee that most of your moving around will be done at night, how well can your dog see at night?

So i guess that kinda sums up my thinking. Go with a work dog that can fend for itself, don't take your play dog with you. Wolves have an economic lope that enables them to traverse great distnaces your pit bull Doberman etc does not.

[edit on 22-8-2007 by blahdiblah]

[edit on 22-8-2007 by blahdiblah]

Originally posted by DontTreadOnMe
Siberian Huskies (vs Alaskan Husky which are bigger animals with much bigger appetites) are VERY fuel efficient. Mine often doesn't need to eat everyday, a plus in lean times. They eat when hungry, not just when they see food.

Add Malamute to that list, Smart and only barks when needed.

reply to post by angryamerican


How is your dog going to protect you or alert you to danger if its pulling a cart?

Originally posted by blahdiblah
How is your dog going to protect you or alert you to danger if its pulling a cart?

First off The dog will alert in the usual way dogs alert. Second off not every sit X is going to be the same. This is yet another option. There will be lots of people who will bug out and make it of those there will be lots who will never see another living sole while there bugging out. this is a great option for them. Nothing in survival is black and white. what works for some will not work for all.

If they were domestic, I'd choose a Dingo. Smart, brave, obviously good hunters, and they dont bark!

Otherwise, I'd choose a crossbreed - possibly a blue heeler X (what you guys know as an australian cattle dog) or something of a similar size. jack russells are great, but not intimidating if need be, and mastiffs/shepherds/rotties are all going to eat a lot of meat. The heeler cross is tough, medium sized, and smart

Originally posted by METACOMET
This is a great thread and ill try to keep this short. I spend 24 hours a day with dogs. I work with specialist dogs for a living. Due to my work, one of my guys is a German Shepherd.

IMO Schutzhund trained GSD(germanshepherddog) are an ideal situation X dog. It is arguably in a league of its own when you talk about a dog you would want in a situation X. Even among working breeds.

However, my vote would go to The Australian Cattle Dog. It is roughly a cross between Australian kelpie, the dingo, and the smooth collie. They have the stamina to withstand extremes of temperature and the resourcefulness to forage and to feed itself on an omnivorous diet like a wild dog.

The breed's strong work ethic rivals the GSD, but their intelligence is above and beyond anyother dog I'am aware of. They are simply amazing.

Check out this video of "skidboot". This is the NORM I have witnessed with Australian Cattle Dogs. In the end though, the key is always the right owner.

Google Video Link

[edit on 6-8-2007 by METACOMET]

I have to agree. Being from Australia, i am aware as to how amazing our cattle dogs are. Watching them round up 100 sheep at a time is amazing, and they are becoming so renowned a lot of farmers overseas are starting to pay prices above $10,000 for them. Unbelievably intelligent and stamina to not only survive the heat in our country, but thrive in it. And when they need to, they will get agressive.....just ask any disobedient sheep or cattle who has been nipped by one of them for not responding.

I

i'd be rolling with my basset retriever, no question.
this is th emost alert and th smartest dog i have ever owned...plus, he zones in on rabbits and squirrels no problem....
they are good at energy conservation and of course their sense of smell is off the charts...
thats what i would take

In my experience, the Alsatian/GS is the most well rounded of the highly bred dogs. They are basically capable of doing whatever you train them to do, and training is of course the key. They do have their problems because of over breeding, and that’s why I think a GS/Lab mix might be just what is needed in a sit-x. Mixes usually drop any of the inbred problems, and tend to bring out some great characteristics. Of course you’d have to pick out the right individual, not every pup is going to fit the bill. My GS/Lab/Chow mix is the smartest dog I’ve ever known. He’s a beta, and so is easily trainable (not stubborn), he’s a rescued dog and so is incredibly loyal (I couldn’t run him off with a stick), literally the only problem I have ever had with him is keeping him out of the neighbors yards when I let him out. The first time we had a tornadic storm come close last spring, he was all up in my face, yapping and obviously trying to warn me. He usually sleeps on the floor at the foot of my bed, but that night he slept right beside me all night. I would cut off and eat my own arm before I would my dog. (and share it with him) Probably a foolish and emotional statement, and I should probably add that I’ve never been truly hungry.

I would caution against any dog with a shortened muzzle or ears that are not upright. These traits may have their specialized uses, but are always a detriment to survival. See any wild canid for confirmation. A shortened muzzle means a reduced ability to cool the body, and I never understood the floppy ear thing. A dog with a proper nose should have no need of floppy ears to help channel the scent, and upright ears are obviously how nature designed them, and so more effective. I’ve no doubt there are many breeds that would make effective helpers in a sit-x. As mentioned before, training, training, training.

Great thread, BTW!

edt for grammer

[edit on 2-9-2007 by resistor]

If they were domestic, I'd choose a Dingo. Smart, brave, obviously good hunters, and they dont bark!

You had better learn to sleep with one eye open my friend, the odds would be high that you would become dinner for one of those guys..heh. I saw a documentary on Dingo's not long ago on NGC and they are quite ferocious and are known to chase away much larger predators when confronted. May as well have a Lion or a Hyena in your camp...cool idea though

There are several breeds that come to mind.
I do not care for the GSD, it is over bred in my opinion, and anything with a bit oif show blood makes it suspect for HD, because of the set, which encourages it, through that "sloping hip"
I like a breed of dog, though rare, is related to the GSD, and may well be an ancestor of the Doberman, and that is the Beauceron, which is also known as the French Shepherd.
This dog is just as good as the GSD, but a little more independence, which is great IMO. They have done studies where dogs that are bred to be up under people have a tendency to NOT think well for themselves, like the border collie for example, and though a hound is not a good choice for an obedience dog, it scores well on independent thinking tests.
The beauceron has a good inbetween coat, often with the heavy guard hairs of the Rott, and the inner coat of the GSD, but lay's flatter. This is a thinking breed of dog, I have seen them think their way into and out of trouble many time, and it never fails to amaze me. Their size is a good one too, they tend to be a little taller than GSDs, but weigh a little less.
There is a book, and I cannot for the life of me remember the name, but the man who wrote it does all kind of protection training, and he made a point, something about a 40 lb Malinos hitting the arm of a PC hopped up suspect, and the man walking off with the dog attached to his arm, but of a 40 lb pit bull hits you, you are going DOWN.
Pound for pound, the pit bull is the strongest dog in the world. I was at the Dover Nationals a few years ago, and watching in amazement as a 22 lb pit bull by the name of Tiny Tim pulled 220 lbs.. 100 times his own weight.
The reason that pit bulls make such good fighting dogs, is they have learned to ignore pain.
They are a highly intelligent breed, and very motivated by the need to please their owners, so a pit bull will pretty much turn into the dog you want it to be. If you want a people friendly dog, that is what you have, if you want a terrible guard dog, that is what you have.
Further, these dogs have been trained in many disciplines, herding, hunting, tracking, you name it.. There is a saying, a pit bull can do anything any other breed of dog can do, and then whup that other breed as well.
Someone mentioned the American Bulldog.. well... Depending on the type, they can be too large, (70-120 lbs), and brachycephalic, which can give it breathing problems.
Also if the AB is NOT bred from say hog hunting stock, you might end up with a dog that just does not have the physical structure to handle physical stress.
I will say the same thing goes for pit bulls, sad to saw, but the ones best suited for a survivor companion are going to be the ones bred from fighting stock, NOT the AKC/UKC watered down version.
Along with the Maremmar, I would like to mention a similar breed.. The Kangal Dog. Some people think the Akbash, Anatolian, and Kangal are the same breed of dog in different forms, (like the Mal, Turv, Groen, and Laek Belgian Shepherds). These dogs are primitive types, with strong pack loyalty, and the ability to care for themselves in the wild.
Unlike the pit bull, who would likely need some help to get through a winter, (though I know of one feral pack that was alphaed by a female pit for several years, even through one of the worst non super blizzard winters I have known), these breeds are used to temperature extremes, and have been bred hardy.
I would avoid any highly independent breed. The Northern breeds are great pack dogs, but they don't take instruction well, even the sled bred dogs. Basinji's and Canaans are a little too independent for my tastes, and don't IMO have the bite to back anything up. Canaans are good in a pack situation, but do you REALLY want at least 10 of them underfoot when you don't need them, and no where to be found when you do?
These dog evolved where lions and leopards roamed, and those that were smart enough to hide swiftly, and quietly when the big kitties went hunting where the ones that survived and bred. EXCEPT when they were in a pack, at which time they banded together, and would chase off the big cat.
Caucasian Ovcharka would be an EXCELLENT heavy duty winter survival dog, and I would like to put in for an honorable mention two more breeds.. One is the Canis Panther.. Look it up,, This would be a great dog for warmer climates. And last of all, The Black Russian Terrier.
The problem with MOST of these dogs, is for me, they are just too big, though they CAN hunt for themselves.
I'd prefer a dog in the 50-70 lb range in a survivor, so I suppose if I had to, I would cross my beaucerons with my pit bulls, and breed for the best of them both, which is how these breeds were created anyway, breeding for ability, and not just for paper, or pretty looks.

Also, someone said something about having a dog that was trained to hunt.. Please remember, dogs are not stupid, they know the difference between a small child, and prey, ESPECIALLY hunting dogs. Think about it, how many people have a lab that regularly goes out and brings in shot down fowl.. that dog has tasted blood, some people may even give the dog a bit of the birds he brings in now and again as a reward. Do you REALLY think that this dog is going to turn and try to eat the masters kids?
Lets look at hog hunting dogs, which uses a bunch of coonhound crosses as bay dogs, and some kind of AB type catcher dog. These dogs are active HARD hunting dogs, and they know the difference between that boar and the kids.
If anyone has any questions about the kind of dog we would need in a survival situation, and if it would be safe with children, I would advise you to go and re read Ole Yeller, who in MY opinion was either a pit bull, or a black mouth cur, which is a pit bull derived breed.
Take away the thieving parts, and that is the ideal dog.
Not too big, smart enough to think on his own, obedient enough to work with people, brave enough to stand against anything, and loyal enough to die for his owner.
What BREED of dog would be best, is all academic. The best breed of dog is any breed that can do the job, without an excess of health issues, and special grooming.


[edit on 9/3/2007 by FalseParadigm]

Originally posted by resistor
They do have their problems because of over breeding, and that’s why I think a GS/Lab mix might be just what is needed in a sit-x. Mixes usually drop any of the inbred problems, and tend to bring out some great characteristics.

Labs have the same problem with over breeding espically with hip displacement and hyper activity

Of course you’d have to pick out the right individual, not every pup is going to fit the bill.

Most people just don't tend to relies that. they think any dog can be trained to do any thing and its just not true. Dogs like people have different personality's and different ability's to learn

he’s a rescued dog and so is incredibly loyal (I couldn’t run him off with a stick),

Bless you for giving a dog a chance. if I could afford it i would adopt every dog and cat at the pound.

literally the only problem I have ever had with him is keeping him out of the neighbors yards when I let him out. The first time we had a tornadic storm come close last spring, he was all up in my face, yapping and obviously trying to warn me. He usually sleeps on the floor at the foot of my bed, but that night he slept right beside me all night. I would cut off and eat my own arm before I would my dog. (and share it with him) Probably a foolish and emotional statement, and I should probably add that I’ve never been truly hungry.

Sounds like you found your true best friend.

I would caution against any dog with a shortened muzzle or ears that are not upright. These traits may have their specialized uses, but are always a detriment to survival. See any wild canid for confirmation. A shortened muzzle means a reduced ability to cool the body, and I never understood the floppy ear thing. A dog with a proper nose should have no need of floppy ears to help channel the scent, and upright ears are obviously how nature designed them, and so more effective. I’ve no doubt there are many breeds that would make effective helpers in a sit-x. As mentioned before, training, training, training.

Floppy ears are how the best trackers track. the ears go over the eyes so they are not distracted. Thats why Bloodhounds have the floppy ears. Basset hounds too. believe me these dogs have proper noses. you are right about specialized uses for these dogs, but just wanted to educate you on the use of floppy eared dogs.

[edit on 3-9-2007 by angryamerican]

reply to post by angryamerican


THX for the response, aa. So you’re saying that the floppy ears are more for use as blinders rather than helping to channel scent? First I’d heard of that, and an interesting concept, but I still think that a dog with proper instincts and a good nose needs no such help. Upright ears don’t seem to hinder wolves from tracking their prey, right? There’s no denying that the good ol’ hound has the best nose of all though, floppy ears and all. I wonder if a hound has a better nose and tracking abilities than a wolf? I somehow doubt it.

Originally posted by FalseParadigm
If anyone has any questions about the kind of dog we would need in a survival situation, and if it would be safe with children, I would advise you to go and re read Ole Yeller, who in MY opinion was either a pit bull, or a black mouth cur, which is a pit bull derived breed.

I take it your not from the south. Here in the south, your random mutt is what’s called an ‘old yaller dog’. If they were allowed to hang around, they typically lived under the porch and were fed scraps when available. When dogs start breeding indiscriminately, and are left mostly on their own to survive, they quickly reduce back to the characteristics that allow for survival. See the dingo for confirmation. They tend to have a yellow-red coat, long narrow muzzles, upright ears and are around 75lbs in size, but your individual may vary. There were no doubt VERY few , if any, pit bulls in the old south era this book was written about. Most of the ‘old yaller’ mutts were from run away hunting dogs who’s interbred offspring were brought home by a child and tolerated by doting parents. As hunting dogs became less necessary for survival, and standards of living improved, these mutts turned into pets. Of course the Old Yeller in the movie was mostly Lab, but the one in the book was about 50 years too early to have any pit bull in him. I think the PB is wonderful breed, BTW.

I'll stick with my Lab. While he may not have the coat required for winter survival he is the only choice I will make.He is trained and is not a pet but a friend.He's the type of dog that if he does bark then I know to get up and check it out as opposed to a dog that barks at everything it hears or sees.I don't have to worry about him running off as I don't even need a leash with him(other than the leash law here in town).

Most of you are talking of what breeds you would want. I wouldn't think of a certain breed per say but your own family dog to me would be the best choice.He/she is already trusted by you and you trust it.You both will know each other's personalities and how you will react to each other. For example my lab knows if I stop walking he stops.

Unless you already have the breed you would want in a survival you're going to have to go out and get one.That will require for you to spend money(many times hundreds of dollars) that can be spent on other gear you'll need.

You will have to spend time getting to know your new puppy or dog.Time that'll be best spent honing your own survival skills.

To me it comes down to which would you be more comfortable with? A dog that you've only had for a few months to a year? Or would you rather have a friend that has been in your life or your family's life for years.

Nothing is a better choice to me than Carter..I trust him with my life.


Hope any of this made sense or helped..cold an flu medicine kicked in after the first few sentences

We have three dogs, they are part of our family and part of any bug out plan.
The kitties would be left to care for themselves in a true apocyptic type scenario or follow at will if we were on foot. But frankly they dont transport well and i know for a fact they can both hunt sufficiently for themselves to stay alive. I would mourn leaving them horribly but i also know that a cat carrier isnt practical in the woods or true survival mode.
I also know that the dogs would provide a sense of security, comfort and stability for both me and my son in a time of upheaval. We are a pack and they would play an indespensible role in our survival both mentally and physically.

our dogs are
a black and tan coonhound treeing walker mix, her son and a Husky.

In a survival X type situation the Our Black and Tan would be indespensible she is fiercely loyal, highly protective, scared of nothing and would defend me or my son to the death..however she is aging and i dont know about her stamina anymore so that would be an issue, i also know i would never leave her, she is my best friend and the best dog i know.

Dog #2 her son is sweet as can be and highly protective but also dumb as a rock....so is protection and companionship worth having a challenged dog along with you? He is young and strong and full of vitality so able to work at tracking or hunting which he does somewhat naturally, he would probably also help the husky pull.

Dog # 3 the Husky, He can run for literally hours on end on rough terrain without tiring, i watched this weekend as he ran up and down rough scrabble and swam in the water all day and then just for kicks he did about 10 laps up and down the stairs from the house to the dock...about 50 feet of steep uneven stairs. He can also hunt and while i certainly dont encourage it right now he can catch a squirrel or a bird or a rabbit with a quickness, he has brough all three to me as gifts, so he would certainly help us eat in a survival situation.

As a husky he could pull a wagon, or a scooter or a bike helping us with transporting the little ones or supplies as well as keeping us warm

The original tribes of siberia that bred the husky used them as pack dogs, to pull sleds and also to keep the children warm at night or in severe blizzards. that warm fur and keen sense of pack the husky has would go a long way in a cold climate.
...and ya know all that extra fur they shed could certainly be spun into wool to make gloves, scarves, etc.
However he is not protective at all, everyone is instantly part of his pack, this may change as he gets older.

so i might be biased but really i think more than one dog might be the most helpful, and that both Hounds and huskies would be perfectly suited to survival. They are tough, hard working and proven breeds to aid in the survival of the people who originally bred them.