Problems with God and Why God must lie outside time.

It's interresting...

If we go faster than light then time stop.
But...
The only light in this world - Comes from the sun. Is it 7 minutes light from the sun takes to reach earth? So I have been told.

In everydaylife terms of words and understanding of time, we see a clock.
Right now it's 10:55 where I am at.
It's a counter - the clock count numbers.

And that originally comes from the rotation of Earth. It is the changing of seasons. The position of the sun - and the usefull benefits the rays of the sun, have on the farmers crops.
Like - usually in the northern hemisphere - summer is the best season for all kinda plants to grow - And that is because of the Sun.

That is where our calendar comes into the picture. The position of the stars - the comming of a new age is the slow movement of the Zodiacs - wich was freely named in the past by people who needed a serial number on the stars to recognize them

- serial numbers like -

Or zodiacs such as Leo the lion, Pisces the two fish, Taurus the bull, Cancer the crab, Virgo the virgin, Libra the scales, Aries the ram, Gemini the twins, Aquarius the water barer, Scorpio the scorpion, Sagittarius the archer, and Capricorn the goat.

And there is about 12, i dunno about number 13. But I think there is a hidden Zodiac that is called Cross. I wouldn't be surprised if such was.

You know - How many hours is there - 24?
Horus - the ancient dude who fly across the skies...Hours.
I dunno if it was Horos who had trouble with Zeth - you know - Sunset.

It's a terrible disaster that has happend to this planet. IMO - we have been lied to - about that guy called Jesus. They made it into a man in flesh and blood and stood by that lie.
Je-Sus is The-Sun.

So basically - there is no time - it's an illusion.

The way to see time is the age. Trees grow and people get older with wrinkels. And that is a good bedtime story.
So - Je-sus is sacrificing he's light everyday Lemmings goto work - he's right there up on the skies.
Doing he's light upon you and all that...

And that is a real messiah - happends everyday - every night...

Now - If we try and go into all that God thing... Then your heading for a circle of philosophy that basically never ends..

The integrated circuit of electricity that goes through all matter - It's so wast and big that we can go insane from thinking of it - because we are part of the circuit - doing what humans do.

And it's to early on a SUN-day morning to do that.
And I am not gonna post this..

[edit on 5-8-2007 by Ram]

this thread died and i never got my answer ..

Where was khrishna when he created his own abode? what was his location then .. or did he come into being at the same time? (massive problems) see original post...

Paul Tillich would say that God is the ground from which existence has it's being. So God doesn't exist per se, but is the ground of existence itself.

He also made great pains not to be have this idea confused with the notion that God is everything in the phenomenal world, but the ground of it.

Originally posted by plague
No one created the creator he has always exsisted and will exsist for ever. It is hard to grip this notion because here in the material universe we are held captive by time. One of the rules of creation under time is it has a beginning, but in the spiritual realm there is no such rule.

I posted this once already... the creator and the spiritual realm where never created they have no begging nor do they have an end. Only the manifested material universe is created and destroyed.

well, in my opinion to create something timeless wouldnt be as hard or strange of a concept to understand if only we could experience timelessness. we have a hard time because we are bound in time. allow me to explain.

imagine that magic is real, and time as we know it is a "spell" one has casted on our world. the effects of the time spell are that whatever it is casted upon will decay at a set rate, depending on its' contents, as well as its surroundings. theres many more effects from time, but many are too hard to put into just a few sentences of words. we all understand what time is, as we know it.

now, imagine this spell never being cast. Things would not decay over time, skin would not become wrinkled, the human body would not fill its' cells (over the majority of a century worth of time) with "toxins" that it cannot remove causing ailments, wrinkles, an aged appearance, and death. Theres scientific talk of "nanotechnology" in the works that may be available 20 years from now that could go into each individual cell and remove these toxins that age us, keeping us looking a certain age as long as we could afford the treatments, however often theyd be required.

timelessness is such a hard concept for some to understand, for this reason I do not blame their skepticism toward a timeless afterlife, and in the same vein, a timeless God. But "I AM" means exactly that .. always was, always will be. For him there is no past tense, present tense, or future tense, its all the present, and as it is said, "I AM" .. always.

why would God create the universe and the Earth and everything as it has been created? only God could totally explain God's intentions. although I will say, somebody was having a lot of fun with wacky fantasy-like creatures roaming the Earth, ones like Tyrannosaurus, the shark Megalodon, etc. What massive, terrifying creations... its almost something like a human being would do if they had God-creation powers and a blank slate (planet) to start creating crazy stuff..

[edit on 8/10/2007 by runetang]

Yes Lord Bhrahma has one great imagination. Well its actually Krishnas imagination and Brahmas just fullfilling it. I was watching this thing on the discovery channel about how the meteor that they think killed the dinos was actually what caused them. Sorta like Godzilla.

Originally posted by plague
Now once again according to the Vedas..... Krishna is the supreme personality of godhead. He resides in his own abode created from his own energy.

your original post clearly states that krishna created his own abode ' He resides in his own abode created by his own energy'


now if your saying he is in his own realm of energy that he did not thoughtfully create then who did? his abode exists 'CREATED' by his own energy .. thus a process of creation took place for his own realm.

if your just saying the realm exists because krishna exists and that realm comes along with him (wether its timeless or not) then he appeared at the start of his own exsistence implying a finite being probing one to ask what was there before?

your constent replies of it just is coz krishna is..... eludes to this part of my post

If the reply is 'it's unfathomable' then the chain of explanation peters out. If the answer is that the choice was blind then again the element of design is lost, because if the selection was purely whimsical, then the universe is reduced to a divine plaything.

[edit on 11/8/07 by Quantum_Squirrel]

Quantum....
I concede man. Im out and yes my answer is just cuz. Krishna is eternal has no beggining nor end. He is untouched by time. Since he is eternal he always was.... so no nothing was before him... I no its hard to fathom because its our nature to look at things through our own perceptions but when dealing with the creator you must percieve things on his level which at the material platform is impossible.

Originally posted by Quantum_Squirrel

Originally posted by plague
Time is only a material concept. Acording to the Vedas there is a material universe and a spiritual universe. In the spiritual universe there is no concept of time. In the material universe there are many different concepts of time depending on where you live. Since god is the creator and both the material and spiritual energy are of his energy and creation they have no effect on him. Thus he is uneffected by time even when he appears in the material creation.

ok so u agree God must exist outside of time , so what about the problems of creation that arise form being outside? Did u read the whole post ? or just the begining then quote a religous book written by human beings thousands of years ago? i am intrested in peoples current opinions on my post coz your post falls into the section of ' it just dosn't effect him coz it dosn't' and there your explanation breaks down and discussion afterwards mute.

here's something. I don't claim to be a philosopher or anything but I really liked this explanation

www.avatarpublication.com...

which, if I recall correctly, suggests that God is in fact above time or outside of time or timeless. I don't remember exactly but the book, which is free, short, and nice and simple to understand (bonus in my books) has a pretty neat theory for the emergence of creation out of consciousness.

Originally posted by plague
Quantum....
I concede man. Im out and yes my answer is just cuz. Krishna is eternal has no beggining nor end. He is untouched by time. Since he is eternal he always was.... so no nothing was before him... I no its hard to fathom because its our nature to look at things through our own perceptions but when dealing with the creator you must percieve things on his level which at the material platform is impossible.

i appluad this reply and thank you for your honesty, dont worry every single explanation for creationism requires us at some level to take a fact on faith alone!! even the most complicated scientific ones.. it all breaks down at some point !!

dont apologise for your views they have as much validty as everyone elses!! i am just searching for questions that cant really be answered ..its easy to sit on the fence and dish out philisophical rheotoric .. again i applaud you for choosing a side and attempting to argue the point !!! you have given me much to think about and have been a valuable contributer to this thread .. this is what i love most about these forums food for thought !! thats why i post what i do !! i am confused and searching always !!

And no i fathom your points more than you realise, i guess as a human being i need a solid explanation..and guess what !! sometimes there aint one!!!

keep it comming people!!!!

So if time only exists on our earth and just for us then aliens would also have to transend time to visit earth. That means aliens are also timeless.

reply to post by WolfofWar

If our "creator" of the universe does infact exist, is it not possible we are just another experiment from a different dimension?

You and I think along the same lines. Check out my thread; www.abovetopsecret.com...'. If we are an experiment - so many things would make more sense.

reply to post by plugandplay

This is my first post and I expect to get hammered. My personal view is; the future , the past and the now are happening all at the same time.

Actually this statement is similar to a view I have been struggling with for some "time". It occurs to me that for every moment of my life, it has never been anything other than "now". Has anyone ever been to the past? It was "now" for me, when I was there. Should I see tomorrow, it will still be "now" , for me, when I get there. The point is, it is always now. Past and future are only abstractions. All of life, and creation, (or evolution) is taking place in the now.
Or is that also an abstraction?
edit for clarity (hopefully)

[edit on 27-4-2008 by wayno]

Originally posted by soulstealer2099
Do not put your faith in science...

I agree here
.

Originally posted by soulstealer2099
I am hate religion and everything it stands for... so i am not preaching.

I myself do not agree with religion but God is not religion. Religion is a man made thing where they talk God down to their level to suit their needs and greeds.

Time has no meaning in God's view hence why He offers us Eternity. As for different times as a believer i know God as Omnipresent, He can be where He chooses at any time or place. For us as man to understand that which is beyond anything we can imagine,God and His ways are too "complicated" to try to comprehend. We are but flesh who live by materialistic means before a spiritual life by choice.

This is Skyfloating's sig which is awesome, then try to imagine the true unlimited power of what i call God.

To see the world in a grain of sand,
and heaven in a wild flower.
To see infinity in the palm of your hand,
an eternity in an hour.

Cheers

Originally posted by Quantum_Squirrel

And this is were Problems start to arise with 'God'

The difficulty of a timeless designer, however, is in making sense of the concept of design. what does it mean to design something 'timelessly'?

In human experience, a designer is a being who thinks through in advance the consequences of certain choices, and then selects one. But 'thinking' and 'in advance' are inescapably temporal descriptions.

Even if some more abstract notion of 'timeless design' is accepted, a further difficulty arises with the specifics of the designers choice.

The idea of, "intelligent," design is the problem because God is not human and intelligence is a human characteristic, God only has a will which is quite different from an intellect.

In spiritual talk if you say God is, "intelligent," then it would be the use of a figure of speech I believe is called, "condescension," or bringing God down to the human level.

Choices by God are not a problem at all, if the creator exists outside of time, then our experiences and the universe are merely the product of that reality the reactions to His creation.

Creation may be a process of the Creator not a design, the inevitable manifestation of the reality of His living outside of space time.

As God is everywhere present, outside of space time, so also God may be life, and therefore our being, that is our perceptually based experiences, our "intellect," and all of what we observe to be factual, merely a manifestation of the reality of a creator living and existing outside of our space time.

I think the real problem with the whole intelligent design thing is that the people engaged in the attempt to control the parameters of the debate, that is the scientist, religious figures and media, can only at best have an intellectual understanding of God with very little real practical working experience in the area of concern.

God is not an intellectual concept He exist in reality, in the way described by holy men throughout all ages of human history,

Until God is approached from the point of view of belief in his existence, His willingness and ability to reward those who seek Him with definable measurable evidence of the truth of His presence, you can not prove or disprove anything about Him.

All that any one will ever be able to do is either mentally assent or descent to the existence of a creator and what good is that its just a mind game.

Originally posted by Quantum_Squirrel

Christians, however, traditionally believe something quite different.

You see hear is a perfect example of what I am saying.

Even if it is not your intent to establish control of the debate that is the effect produced when you make claims like, "Christians traditionally believe this or that."

I am sure you have lots of theological works you can cite as evidence that what you are saying is correct, but the idea that there is or has ever been a unified belief on the subject of creation amongst Christians or any people for that matter, is ridiculous.

Just because some christian writes down his or her opinions on a subject means nothing, because you can't get ten people to give you a unified belief system on anything about creation, let alone an entire group of religious people.

I have personally spoken with thousands of people who would describe themselves as Christian, and if you asked them all individually to tell you what they believe about creation, you would get thousands of different ideas like what would happen with any group that you asked the question..

The only people who fully believe and agree with the opinions of the scientist, religious authorities, or media, are the exceptions like the fundamentalist, and the ones who tell you they believe the same thing don't know what they believe, they are just telling you that because that is what you told them.

Originally posted by Quantum_Squirrel

And this is the problem of God , and if God/designer/creator exists why he/she/other MUST lie outside of time ...

There is no problem with God being outside of time, other than the one you are insisting on inflicting into things.

Like I said the only problem I see is the whole debate is being controlled by people who don't actually believe in God at all, they only mentally assent to His existence at best, whither they be scientist, religious people or media figures, otherwise they would manifest spiritual power and have all the evidence they need to make a decision.

Which in my opinion, contention for control of the debate, produces the effect of a conspiracy against true spirituality of the individual, because it reduces God to the false choice of religion or non-religion when in fact if God exists in reality then religion is as much a lie as non-religion.

Don't misunderstand me, I don't mean you are doing it intentionally, you only recognize spiritual things as intellectual constructs, it is your lack of personal experience with the things of God that is causing you to say what you have, and therefore it is understandable.

We suffer such a faithless generation today.

I would suggest that people should stop giving so much intellectual thought to the idea of God and try believing in Him, that He might do something in our lives to give us more faith in His ability to evidence His presence in measurable ways.

It's Just a thought anyway?

[edit on 27-4-2008 by newday]

im really not an expert on time so im just adding my two cents to the discussion. nothing im saying here is based on anything more than just my brain working it out.

i think we (humans) get stuck on time because we use it to measure things happening. so you walk from point a to point b and it took a certain amount of time to get there. physics says that time is different to different things and it create anomolies, like if you are near a black hole you can theoretically come out before you go in.

ok.

but now comes a paradox. for example, 2 ships near a black hole. time slows as you approach the event horizon. if one ships sits back and watches the other approach, this wierd thing occurs, the ship appears to freeze. does that really happen or does it just appear that way.

if time stops or freezes, then can action take place? is a black hole really just a paused space in the universe? like i said im no expert so i have no idea

my thoery goes one of 2 ways

time always existed and always will (im not sure but think there is proof that this is not true)

or time IS just a perception and that action is capable without time.

i dunno

reply to post by miriam0566


Very interesting, sound like a good topic idea for the start of another thread....