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Problems with God and Why God must lie outside time.

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posted on Aug, 4 2007 @ 09:43 AM
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Time is a part of the physical universe, inseparable from space and matter. Any Designer/Creator must therfore transcend time, as well as space and matter.

That is god Must lie outside time if God is to be the designer and creater of time.

If it is possible that time had a begining (big bang) its also possible it could have an end. Most theologians would Not want God to come into being at the beginning of time and cease to exist if it should come to an end.

And this is were Problems start to arise with 'God'

The difficulty of a timeless designer, however, is in making sense of the concept of design. what does it mean to design something 'timelessly'?
In human experience, a designer is a being who thinks through in advance the consequences of certain choices, and then selects one. But 'thinking' and 'in advance' are inescapably temporal descriptions.

Even if some more abstract notion of 'timeless design' is accepted, a further difficulty arises with the specifics of the designers choice.

Could the designer have choosen a different universe, or chosen not to make a universe at all? .... if the answer is no, then God had no alternative but to create this universe and plays no role at all in the explanation - and so does not merit the title 'designer'.
Nature is reduced to a subset of the divine being rather than a creation of this being. in fact this scenario might as well do away with a designer altogether.

Christians, however, traditionally believe something quite different.

They believe that God created this particular universe as a free act: that is, God was free to not make this universe. but this comes with its own set of difficulties, because we can ask why it was that God chose to make this universe, as opposed to a lifeless one, or one with maximum suffering. If the reply is 'it's unfathomable' then the chain of explanation peters out. If the answer is that the choice was blind then again the element of design is lost, because if the selection was purely whimsical, then the universe is reduced to a divine plaything.

But if the answer is that the decision to make the universe was a profound and considered one which proceeded from God's nature, then one is prompted to ask about the source of this nature. In other words who designed the designer? making God not god/designer/creator after all..


And this is the problem of God , and if God/designer/creator exists why he/she/other MUST lie outside of time ...

Discuss

thanx to paul davies for exerpts



[edit on 4-8-2007 by Quantum_Squirrel]




posted on Aug, 4 2007 @ 09:59 AM
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Time is only a material concept. Acording to the Vedas there is a material universe and a spiritual universe. In the spiritual universe there is no concept of time. In the material universe there are many different concepts of time depending on where you live. Since god is the creator and both the material and spiritual energy are of his energy and creation they have no effect on him. Thus he is uneffected by time even when he appears in the material creation.



posted on Aug, 4 2007 @ 10:24 AM
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Originally posted by plague
Time is only a material concept. Acording to the Vedas there is a material universe and a spiritual universe. In the spiritual universe there is no concept of time. In the material universe there are many different concepts of time depending on where you live. Since god is the creator and both the material and spiritual energy are of his energy and creation they have no effect on him. Thus he is uneffected by time even when he appears in the material creation.


ok so u agree God must exist outside of time , so what about the problems of creation that arise form being outside? Did u read the whole post ? or just the begining then quote a religous book written by human beings thousands of years ago? i am intrested in peoples current opinions on my post coz your post falls into the section of ' it just dosn't effect him coz it dosn't' and there your explanation breaks down and discussion afterwards mute.



posted on Aug, 4 2007 @ 10:42 AM
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Time is only what we base our life on. If other species exist than so must other theories...to them them time may not exist. God is a creature that exists.....but trust me on this...he/she/animal( depends on what you feel God is) does not follow what our scientists or theologians go by. Do not put your faith in science...it has been proven wrong many times and is definitely done been proven again. I am hate religion and everything it stands for... so i am not preaching.



posted on Aug, 4 2007 @ 10:52 AM
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Yes I read the whole post. And it is an intersting topic. Only one problem.
You dont understand the creator or the creation. I gave you a simple answer that Ihave learned from studing the Vedic scriptures. Im sorry if my answer was to simple and the end all be all of the subjct, but that is my fault.
Now once again according to the Vedas..... Krishna is the supreme personality of godhead. He resides in his own abode created from his own energy. He then created Maya Vishnu who then creates the first human being in the spritual universe ..... Bhrama. Bhrama then creates the material universe. The spiritual universe has always existed and will never end. The material universe only last as long as one of Bhramas days. He is meditating on the creation and therefore creating this world around us. When his day is done (his day last millions of years earth years) he rest and his creation is destroyed. He designs this and many universes under the direction of Krishna. Now Krishna is infallible and is all perfect and unexplainable. Now here lies the problem with your post. You are trying to discuss something that you cant understand or comprehend. So how can you have a discussion. Or you can but then your just giving opinions which are little more then a guess. which is fine and can be fun and entertaining but leads to only speculation.
I gave you my opinion in my first reply and you tried to belittle me. Which I dont understand why. you wanted a discussion so i discussed then you attacked.



posted on Aug, 4 2007 @ 10:55 AM
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Originally posted by plague
Yes I read the whole post. And it is an intersting topic. Only one problem.
You dont understand the creator or the creation. I gave you a simple answer that Ihave learned from studing the Vedic scriptures. Im sorry if my answer was to simple and the end all be all of the subjct, but that is my fault.
Now once again according to the Vedas..... Krishna is the supreme personality of godhead. He resides in his own abode created from his own energy. He then created Maya Vishnu who then creates the first human being in the spritual universe ..... Bhrama. Bhrama then creates the material universe. The spiritual universe has always existed and will never end. The material universe only last as long as one of Bhramas days. He is meditating on the creation and therefore creating this world around us. When his day is done (his day last millions of years earth years) he rest and his creation is destroyed. He designs this and many universes under the direction of Krishna. Now Krishna is infallible and is all perfect and unexplainable. Now here lies the problem with your post. You are trying to discuss something that you cant understand or comprehend. So how can you have a discussion. Or you can but then your just giving opinions which are little more then a guess. which is fine and can be fun and entertaining but leads to only speculation.
I gave you my opinion in my first reply and you tried to belittle me. Which I dont understand why. you wanted a discussion so i discussed then you attacked.

Quantam ...if you cannot except others opinions..then why post?

[edit on 4-8-2007 by soulstealer2099]



posted on Aug, 4 2007 @ 11:05 AM
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Originally posted by plague
Now once again according to the Vedas..... Krishna is the supreme personality of godhead. He resides in his own abode created from his own energy.



There are no personal attacks meant and if taken so i apologise, i am open to all forms of discussion and infact look forward to it ..

one question from me tho .... were did Krishna reside whilst he was creating his own abode? because if there was a point he created .. then there is a point where it did not exist.. therfore where was krishna then? or did he erupt into life the second he created the aboad naturally being part of it .. thus implying a finite being ...that woukld maybe end if the abode ever ended? meaning there must have been something before that so who created the creator?



Quantam ...if you cannot except others opinions..then why post?

[edit on 4-8-2007 by soulstealer2099]

i dont have to 'except' any opinions as fact.. only as opinions which i assure you i do



[edit on 4-8-2007 by Quantum_Squirrel]



posted on Aug, 4 2007 @ 11:09 AM
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your basing your ideas on books written thousands of years ago. Thousands of years ...the story will change.

[edit on 4-8-2007 by soulstealer2099]



posted on Aug, 4 2007 @ 11:13 AM
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No one created the creator he has always exsisted and will exsist for ever. It is hard to grip this notion because here in the material universe we are held captive by time. One of the rules of creation under time is it has a beginning, but in the spiritual realm there is no such rule.



posted on Aug, 4 2007 @ 11:16 AM
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Originally posted by soulstealer2099
your basing your ideas on bokks written thousands of years ago. Thousands of years ...the story will change.


They havent changed in over 5,000 years and will not change in the future.
The Vedas are absolute. Unlike other spiritual scripture which are changed and then changed again ... this has never happend to the Vedas and will never.



posted on Aug, 4 2007 @ 11:55 AM
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Originally posted by plague

Originally posted by soulstealer2099
your basing your ideas on bokks written thousands of years ago. Thousands of years ...the story will change.


They havent changed in over 5,000 years and will not change in the future.
The Vedas are absolute. Unlike other spiritual scripture which are changed and then changed again ... this has never happend to the Vedas and will never.

LOL.....LOL........LOL........LOL

------------------------------

please read ABOUT ATS: Warnings for one-line or short responses

www.abovetopsecret.com...

[edit on 4/8/07 by masqua]



posted on Aug, 4 2007 @ 12:00 PM
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Forgive me for my comments...no excuse...just being a jerk.



posted on Aug, 4 2007 @ 01:23 PM
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Originally posted by plague
No one created the creator he has always exsisted and will exsist for ever. It is hard to grip this notion because here in the material universe we are held captive by time. One of the rules of creation under time is it has a beginning, but in the spiritual realm there is no such rule.



i think we maybe arguing the same point but just from different angles ...my thread titles says ..why god must exist outside of time .. ie timeless.. yes i do throw problems that arise with being timeless.. but i dont say he/she/it dosnt exist just that they would have to be timeless



posted on Aug, 4 2007 @ 03:11 PM
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Interesting Topic

But time itself was a creation, and did not exist until it was created with creation. What was that first creation, the bible says Jesus Christ, around 20 Billion years ago, nobody really knows thats a liberal guess.

Before that God was alone, no physical matter, no physical space, no universe, nothing existed but him, not even time. Time was created when Jesus was created.

Now wrap your mind around this one, 999 trillion years before that, God existed, and 999 trillion years before that, God existed and you can keep going like that. Also time is relative, as we all know that time seems to go faster as we age.

When you were in grade one how long did 1 year take to go by.
Now when you are about 35 how long does 1 year take to go by.
Our view of time changes as we age.
Thats why the bible says to God 1 day(24h) = 1000 human years
So from his perspective we have only been on the earth for a few days.
No wonder he hasn't fixed things on this planet, maybe he has a goal to repair everything by then end of the week, his week, not our week.



posted on Aug, 4 2007 @ 04:06 PM
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Originally quoted by Quantum:

Time is a part of the physical universe, inseparable from space and matter. Any Designer/Creator must therfore transcend time, as well as space and matter.

I agree that any Designer had to originally exist outside of time. That creation involved all 3 phenomena simultaneously as space, matter and time seem inter related. I think as we progress we will see the universe more as something that has always existed as opposed to having a time line. Time lines may exist for every galaxy, solar, planet but the whole of creation appears timeless.



posted on Aug, 4 2007 @ 05:22 PM
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What if a creator is outside of our time and space, but in another.

What if beings, such as humans, in a paralell dimension, beyond our space and time, created us. The understanding of our origins are leading us, imminently, to try to recreate a big bang. If our "creator" of the universe does infact exist, is it not possible we are just another experiment from a different dimension?



posted on Aug, 4 2007 @ 05:46 PM
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Originally posted by WolfofWar
What if a creator is outside of our time and space, but in another.

What if beings, such as humans, in a paralell dimension, beyond our space and time, created us. The understanding of our origins are leading us, imminently, to try to recreate a big bang. If our "creator" of the universe does infact exist, is it not possible we are just another experiment from a different dimension?


i agree with this theory see my other post on simulated universes link supplied


simulated universe



posted on Aug, 4 2007 @ 11:08 PM
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by Wolfofwar:
The understanding of our origins are leading us, imminently, to try to recreate a big bang.

1. I don't see a reason to believe that we humans understand our origins in any way. Most of us rely on what we read in an ancient texts and our scientists are looking through Hubble and only theorizing.
2. A class one civilization such as we are (and IMHO always will be) barely has the power to leave Earth and research our nearest planet let alone affect other solar systems, etc.
3. But aahh, I suppose it is fun to speculate!



posted on Aug, 5 2007 @ 12:25 AM
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This is my first post and I expect to get hammered. My personal view is; the future , the past and the now are happening all at the same time. Unfortunately we only use probably 10% maybe some use 15% of their brain. Our brain can not process future, past and now without overheating. That is why we have time. Time is the space in which it takes our brain to process what is going on.If we used 100% of our brain power as God gave us, we probably could be outside time also. Time is here only to keep everything from happening all at once :-) By the way I do think God is outside of space and time. It is like he is standing on top of a tall building and watching a parade. He can see the beginning of the parade and the end. I live in a small town and the parades we have are always short. Thanks for allowing me to post my humble opinion. If you Guys hammer me I will only grow, I will not be upset.



posted on Aug, 5 2007 @ 01:05 AM
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Maybe "god" is just a force. Humans like to dress up things, talk to them, and pretend they hear...but they don't.

What is time exactly? The faster we move, the slower time moves. According to special relativity, if we went at the speed of light, time would stop so to speak. Our 1 second at the speed of light would be literally billions of years. So isn't time and motion inversely related?

People on here asked, what if we are just an experiment by some advanced race?

What if...



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