How can you honestly believe in God.

God knew, but things must pass. He allows choices to be made.

Deleted

[edit on 31-10-2007 by HIFIGUY]

reply to post by depth om


Ummmmm ok. Right. No further questions your honor.

But. Let me just say this. Think about what I said. Think about your response and you tell me how it looks.

I do not believe in god, but if he appeared before me today, I would not bow down or pray to him or nobody. Simply because, I am my own, I have my own free will, and nobody will make me believe anything that I don't want to believe. I have a very powerful mind. We all do, if we just used it more. If there was a god why should we have to get down on our hands and knee's to him? Why should we ask him for mercy? Therefore you would be in control of something. And no man or god will ever control me.

I was replying to your previous post about God knowing death would occur. He knows everything, he had to allow his creation to choose and act, we got what we wanted, the knowledge of good and evil. We are too weak to uphold constant good, justice. If we contain any part of sin, it will kill us. we have a safety line though. Before, it was sacrifice and atonement. Then Jesus Christ came as the ultimate token of redemption, a human of pure justice, goodness.

This may be trash to many people but I've found out that you only see God, not see his actual form but, his presence, if you allow yourself to. I've done tests with personal prayer, held Jesus to his claim that what you ask, you will recieve... if you believe you will. Just how observing a particle will cause it to behave differently, I beleive belief can unlock the doors to many things through God.

The hardest part is letting your self go. allowing yourself to believe. I think man knew full well who God was long ago, but gradually turned away.

God is not the oppressor, we are. We make the choices in this world. God only holds us to them. That's not to say he does not intervene, but, we really do have free will. If we can't do something with our bodies, we will build a machine that can. I know christianity has become hijacked in various ways.
The church isn't a building though, it's every individual who believes in Christ and his sacrifice. I know Christ is the way, I've got my personal proof. There is still so much though.

The journey never ends, the road goes on and on, we just get a new car to drive around in when the one we have now breaks down.

reply to post by WraothAscendant

Ok. Now. Lets talk about the nature of the word "evil". Since you claim it was created by "god" and thusly a elemental part of the world.

Where in nature (other than man) do you see evil? And please don't use the predictable argument that predators are evil because that stance is pure foolishness.

In the Jewish/Christian belief God created Evil.see Isaiah 45:7.
Its there in black and white,God proclaiming he created it!
Too many people ignore this fact,or don't even know of it because modern Bible's are changing the words.

I can see Evil in animals just by looking out of my window.When the Magpies aren't fighting with the Crows,they fight with the smaller birds.Time and time again i've seen them killing chicks.In fact,one morning i opened my curtains to find a Magpie on the summer house roof eating a young chick alive!! They also steal food from the Squirrels.They bury it,the Magpies dig it up.They don't need to steal their food,there's enough around for them,its just easier for them to steal.

The Black-headed Grosbeak is known to steal parts & pieces of another bird's nest to construct her own.
Sparrows steal nests from Martins,sometimes forcing Martin eggs or even young ones out,letting them fall to the ground.Starlings,in turn,steal nests from Sparrows.

Renowned primatologist Jane Goodall has observed over the years planned 'wars' between groups of chimps that are clearly premeditated and based on material gain.Planned Murders? Chimps can gang up on each other,they'll kill each other,even cannibalize.This is done in a manner that is premeditated ie. they *thought* about it.They didn't have to do it,and they weren't driven by instinct,unlike say,lions that kill cubs they didn't father.

Yes. Strife, chaos. Mal intent in all beings. This is the effect of sin. Bloodthirst, jealousy, greed, rage, gluttony etc.

reply to post by depth om

Yes. Strife, chaos. Mal intent in all beings. This is the effect of sin. Bloodthirst, jealousy, greed, rage, gluttony etc.

And we know who created all of that don't we?

No,not Satan.
He gave in to the Sin's of Pride,Wrath and Envy,which means they already existed for him to be tempted by!

Dual natures. The poles of being, good and bad.

Originally posted by jakyll
In the Jewish/Christian belief God created Evil.see Isaiah 45:7.
Its there in black and white,God proclaiming he created it!
Too many people ignore this fact,or don't even know of it because modern Bible's are changing the words.

Jesus Christ

Men seek salvation from an evil that they deem a living monster of the nether world; and they have gods that are but demons in disguise; all powerful, yet full of jealousy and hate and lust; 18 Whose favours must be bought with costly sacrifice of fruits, and of the lives of birds, and animals, and human kind. 19 And yet these gods possess no ears to hear, no eyes to see, no heart to sympathise, no power to save. 20 This evil is myth; these gods are made of air, clothed with shadows of a thought. 21 The only devil from which men must be redeemed is self, the lower self. If man would find his devil he must look within; his name is self. 22 If man would find his saviour he must look within; and when the demon self has been dethroned the saviour, Love, will be exulted to the throne of power

Key Points her are that Evil as an entity is a Myth.
The Devil as an entity is a Myth.
Men have made what man has to overcome

If you tell a child theres a moster behind a door, he wont go behind that door till he thinks its gone, even if it wasnt there initially. The even may be so shocking in concept that the child may remember the event for many years to come.

As to the Origin of Evil...A magus speaking to Jesus asked the following and tells them that man made his own evil.

Magus

We all do recognize the fact that evil is. Whatever is, must have a cause, If God, the One, made not this evil, then, where is the God who did?

Which appears to be a valid question, for if God made everything..he must have made it..However, Jesus responds with this:

Jesus Christ

And Jesus said, Whatever God, the One, has made is good, and like the great first Cause, the seven Spirits all are good, and everthing that comes from their creative hands is good. 12 Now, all created things have colours, tones and forms their own; but certain tones, though good and pure themselves, when mixed, produce inharmonies, discordant tones. 13 And certain things, though good and pure, when mixed, produce discordant things, yea, poisonous things, that men call evil things. 14 So evil is the inharmonious blending of the colours, tones, or forms of good. 15 Now, man is not all-wise, and yet has will his own. He has the power, and he uses it, to mix God's good things in a multitude of ways, and every day he makes discordant sounds, and evil things. 16 And every tone and form, be it of good, or ill, becomes a living thing, a demon, sprite, or spirit of a good or vicious kind. 17 Man makes his evil thus; and then becomes afraid of him and flees; his devil is emboldened, follows him away and casts him into torturing fires. 18 The devil and the burning fires are both the works of man, and none can put the fires out and dissipate the evil one, but man who made them both. 19 Then Jesus stood aside, and not a magus answered him.

The Almighty God giveth all. In emotion, if one does not know sadness, one cannot experience joy. But this does not mean, that sadness is the desired state just as continual anger is not the desired state.

The Mind of a Man is a miracle construct.

To be dissapointed versus angry. Sad versus vengful, Happy at being happy, and not at other peoples demise. Their are conditions of right that are more right then others. Can you see them is the question.

The Devil and the Burning fires are both the constructs of man.

One man offers another man a glass of water on a hot day to quench his thirst. The other man takes it only to choke on it and die. People watching the incident say that the man was evil for giving him the water, yet others say the water was possessed with a Demon and killed the man.

Man labeled what man did not understand. You will understand when you come to know the ways of Christ by reading with an unbiased heart his teachings.

Peace

[edit on 31-10-2007 by HIFIGUY]

[edit on 31-10-2007 by HIFIGUY]

reply to post by HIFIGUY


You can quote Jesus all you want,it still won't change the word's of God,

"I form the light,and create darkness:I make peace,and create evil:I the LORD do all these things." (Isaiah 45:7)

The image of Hell may be man's,but the invention started with God and Jesus and all their "burn for all eternity."
I agree that the Devil,as the personification of Evil,is a myth.

If Jesus and God are one and the same then they continuously contradict themselves and truth and faith can not be built on such a foundation.

And as my quotes have shown,Jesus the divine can be just as angry and violent as any human being.Except in Jesus and God it is seen as righteous anger,righteous violence.In humans it is wicked,it is a flaw.


As i said,no amount of quotes of Jesus proclaiming love,peace etc will wipe away all the words and verses you do not agree with!!

Is it possible that burn for eternity means the misfortune of having to continually reincarnate in physical form? I'm having a similar discussion on another board and was wondering if the knowledgeable minds here would agree on the viability of my premise?

God didnt creat evil he let it continue. Satan created evil by going against what God wanted and taking a 3rd of the angels with him. God let it continue so that free will would run. God knew from the example of satan that people who knew him would not even fully follow him. He needed people to believe in him that never knew he really existed. That was how God would find true followers. Free will. For free will to exist you need a balance.

As for believeing in God, I follow God cuz he is here, and out there and true. I dont need some big mericle and a hand of God to slap me to show he is here. I dont need a angel to show me God power, or healing mericle. I follow by faith, and faith alone is what sustanes me. God gives us so much forgiveness(and allot of forgiveness I need) cuz we never had proof he was here and yet we still believe.

As for the bible being made up, it would be hard to make up a book made through out time, if the book had one writer maybe you could make up the book, but the book has words of life in them, those who read and understand get knowledge most dont have. Understand of the world around them. You dont even need the bible to see God truths, for the proof lays around you.

reply to post by slymattb

"I form the light,and create darkness:I make peace,and create evil:I the LORD do all these things." (Isaiah 45:7)

Are you really so blind?

Satan gave in to the Sin's of Pride,Wrath and Envy,which means they already must have existed for him to be tempted by them!

Is that so difficult to understand?

reply to post by Sunnydays

Is it possible that burn for eternity means the misfortune of having to continually reincarnate in physical form? I'm having a similar discussion on another board and was wondering if the knowledgeable minds here would agree on the viability of my premise?

I guess by "misfortune" you mean being kept outta Heaven?
If you were going to use metaphors to describe reincarnation the idea of being burnt forever doesn't really connect.
And if non-believers get an extra shot at life,it means they can experience joy,love and sex again,and they can have children and they can have fun and they can see the wonders of the Earth,again and again.
God and Jesus made it clear that non-believers and sinners will be punished.What i described doesn't sound like a punishment to me!

Originally posted by jakyll
reply to post by Sunnydays

 

Is it possible that burn for eternity means the misfortune of having to continually reincarnate in physical form? I'm having a similar discussion on another board and was wondering if the knowledgeable minds here would agree on the viability of my premise?

I guess by "misfortune" you mean being kept outta Heaven?
If you were going to use metaphors to describe reincarnation the idea of being burnt forever doesn't really connect.
And if non-believers get an extra shot at life,it means they can experience joy,love and sex again,and they can have children and they can have fun and they can see the wonders of the Earth,again and again.
God and Jesus made it clear that non-believers and sinners will be punished.What i described doesn't sound like a punishment to me!

Well misfortune probably isn't the best word choice...How about necessity? We continually reincarnate out of necessity. Perhaps necessity is necessary just until we learn to overcome our fear of death and love for the world?

Well being burnt doesn't sound very appealing to me either. What i meant by burn forever was to be continually subject to the misery of a human 'physical' existence through the process of eternal return. The part about the love, joy sex again and again doesn't sound like fun to me it sounds really boring. To be trapped in that type of paradigmatic existence would be worse than hell. LOL

Just imagine having to relive every married with children epsidoe over and over again for eternity!

reply to post by Sunnydays

Just imagine having to relive every married with children epsidoe over and over again for eternity!

LOL!

But you would be a different person each time,and each time you would experience everything differently.

Originally posted by Sunnydays
Is it possible that burn for eternity means the misfortune of having to continually reincarnate in physical form? I'm having a similar discussion on another board and was wondering if the knowledgeable minds here would agree on the viability of my premise?

In my readings, it appears that this may be the case.

When Christ says that each man has within him, Gold which is not perishable, that leads me to think this. Then we are refined.

One would argue that its not a punishment, yet I would argue that this society of today inflicts plenty of injustice on a daily basis even under the umbrella of Christianity.

That year after year, we move towards the truth, and that righteousness sets in, and practices which are lesser are abandoned.

No mans life on this planet should be determined by Geographic lottery in terms of freedmon or resources. Life, Liberty and the persuit of happininess and servitude towards ones fellow man unifies the Globe and ushers in peace on earth and Good Will towards men.

Yes, its possible, for us, and a reality for the youth, that the mess we create today is lived tomorrow. Its possible that we are that tomorrow returning.

As for hell, returning to a world of war, a world of hate, a world of pollution and hunger...for now that sounds pretty bad.

The Lords Prayer says, " On Earth as it is in Heaven "

Lastly, in response to jakyll, One must know the Word to understand the Word. When one man does not believe another. When one man hates another. When one man oppresses another, When one man takes from another...

When The Love and Truth of God is exchanged for a lie...

Welcome to Hell.

You can quote me or read between the lines.

/wink

Peace


[edit on 31-10-2007 by HIFIGUY]

Originally posted by jakyll
As i said,no amount of quotes of Jesus proclaiming love,peace etc will wipe away all the words and verses you do not agree with!!

Oh really..Jesus called it here

Jesus Christ

The Lord answered and said to him, I tell thee also unto seventy times seven, for even in the Prophets, after they were anointed by the Spirits utterance of sin was found.

Utterance of Sin he said..In other words..ERROR.

That was the Prophet Isaiah you quoted..right?

Didnt Jesus say, when Abraham was, I AM? Think it any different under Isaiah?

"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."

Better start studying the Trinity Jakyll..

Peace


[edit on 31-10-2007 by HIFIGUY]

Originally posted by HIFIGUY

Originally posted by Sunnydays
Is it possible that burn for eternity means the misfortune of having to continually reincarnate in physical form? I'm having a similar discussion on another board and was wondering if the knowledgeable minds here would agree on the viability of my premise?

In my readings, it appears that this may be the case.

When Christ says that each man has within him, Gold which is not perishable, that leads me to think this. Then we are refined.

One would argue that its not a punishment, yet I would argue that this society of today inflicts plenty of injustice on a daily basis even under the umbrella of Christianity.

That year after year, we move towards the truth, and that righteousness sets in, and practices which are lesser are abandoned.

No mans life on this planet should be determined by Geographic lottery in terms of freedmon or resources. Life, Liberty and the persuit of happininess and servitude towards ones fellow man unifies the Globe and ushers in peace on earth and Good Will towards men.

Yes, its possible, for us, and a reality for the youth, that the mess we create today is lived tomorrow. Its possible that we are that tomorrow returning.

As for hell, returning to a world of war, a world of hate, a world of pollution and hunger...for now that sounds pretty bad.

The Lords Prayer says, " On Earth as it is in Heaven "

Lastly, in response to jakyll, One must know the Word to understand the Word. When one man does not believe another. When one man hates another. When one man oppresses another, When one man takes from another...

When The Love and Truth of God is exchanged for a lie...

Welcome to Hell.

You can quote me or read between the lines.

/wink

Peace


[edit on 31-10-2007 by HIFIGUY]

I would love to quote you unfortunately the site is more in tune with a fundamentalist approach to scripture... More helpful would be scripture which may symbolically allude to the above conclusion. For instance, for some reason i chose...

And I saw Satan fall like a lightning-flash out of Heaven. Luke 10:18

As a refutation to:

The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Revelation 20:10

In support of Hell being Planet Earth. As in, Satan was cast out of heaven into Hell? Dunno made sense at the time..