Who Here Will Accept A Real ID Card???

i wonder if we would have a problem of underground or black market rfid chip resellers. they steal them from corpses and sell them to people who want a better life. since your di would be in a chip then presumably there's no need for photo ID - at least no more need than the current with credit cards (how often do you get asked for ID when paying?)

i bet there would be a line of people following wealthy people around just waiting to cut the chip out of their arm/head/etc. sounds gruesome but i submit that this could be one of the repercussions.

Originally posted by Mikey84

Originally posted by St James
Well, for starters there will be an RFID chip in the REAL ID card. It will carry all your personal information and you will need it to enter any goverment building, open a bank account, board an airplane etc. This will allow the government to track your movements...

Hummm…. Sounds a lot like my Passport.

I have no problem with a REAL ID card, infact I think it will make things easier for me, plus I have no problem I have nothing to hide.

I currently hold 3 passports from 3 different countries (2 currently have a Biometric chip in), I have 2 drivers licence’s from 2 different countries, have had 3 different names since birth (all legally changed of course) and am currently saving to pay for Pilot lessons, I’d be surprised if they weren’t already watching everything I do, lol. But as I said, all the above is legal and I have nothing to hide.

Bring on the Real ID card, would make things a lot easier.

Mikey 84

Why don't you just stick a surveillance camera in your house and feed it live to the internet? You have nothing to hide right?

I'll take the card and be putting it in my nice shielded
carrying case, I'll only take it out to get my cheese and
my immunization shots.

Cole, i couldnt be arsed quoting all that, so i will just recap what i am saying.

1. I have to change my arguement because you may think you are steadfast, i think your just being stubborn and not considering other options.

2. Police need for the freedom to be able to catch criminals, to do that they need to have the power to remove certain aspects of a suspects freedom.

3. Your "steafast" protection of your freedom to allow every man choose his own way is flawed, because it stops other things from happening. Something like the Chip i want in humanity will be useless if not every person takes part.

4.

Learn the history of the banking cartel, and big bankers.

As i was saying, you make the allegations, you provide the evidence. Im not doing your work.

5. You say im allowed to leave the thread? i would, but you dont know what im here for. I am the champion of the rational, the defender of the world against stupidity and bloody mindedness.

AnOmoly33 i wonder if we would have a problem of underground or black market rfid chip resellers. they steal them from corpses and sell them to people who want a better life. since your di would be in a chip then presumably there's no need for photo ID - at least no more need than the current with credit cards (how often do you get asked for ID when paying?)

Holy Junk! I never thought about this idea! But, it does coincide with my thoughts on the matter. Doesnt an 'all in one' card make it that much easier for theifs and scam artists? I mean, come on, all this does is raise the ante.
Yes, I have credit cards, but not just one. I have my social security card and bank accounts, but they are all seperate, and I like it because if someone steals one of these account numbers, at least its just one! Can you imagine working through identity theft for ALL of your information, and ALL of your accounts and card numbers? Well, better start imagining it, because it appears to be a problem that may be right around the corner!

Personally ive already put my thoughts to that problem, it seems to be minor if the right precautions are taken.

Firstly, this is where a chip in the hand beats a card any day of the week.

But if the ID is connected to a persons fingerprint then it would mean that you swipe the chipped hand/card and press down your thumb. If its a match, bingo. If it isnt, police are alerted.

A chip could also be just keyed to a persons blood flow. If it stops (or is severely weakened, due to being hurt or something) then it could also send an alarm.

Although, of course, this kind of system only works with strong cooperation of all people in a nation. This is where freedom falls down, if enough people (say...25%) are against the chip, then it wont be profitable to add it. so those who exercise their right to freedom mean that a system which is better will not be put forward.

Freedom standing in front of ingenuity and evolution.

Originally posted by Octavius Maximus

Learn the history of the banking cartel, and big bankers.

As i was saying, you make the allegations, you provide the evidence. Im not doing your work.

I don't need to provide anything, I've provided evidence on various issues, YOU ignor it and don't accept it, and then launch personal insults, as a result of it.

I know the history of such things, its not my place to teach you.

Octavius Maximus
A chip could also be just keyed to a persons blood flow. If it stops (or is severely weakened, due to being hurt or something) then it could also send an alarm.

Although, of course, this kind of system only works with strong cooperation of all people in a nation. This is where freedom falls down, if enough people (say...25%) are against the chip, then it wont be profitable to add it. so those who exercise their right to freedom mean that a system which is better will not be put forward.

I agree with the first part of your statement. A chip would definitely come in handy if used correctly, especially in your example where it could be a matter of life and death.

I also understand what you are saying about it being a step in the right direction as far as an evolutionary change. And, who am I to question that, right?

But, as far as Im concerned, and as far as I feel comfortable, there is no way that my half arsed Government is going to have the power of my 'life or death' in there hands. Alert when blood stops flowing, great, but whoes to say it wont be able to stop the blood from flowing ? And some corrupt official, low paid monitor or theif isn't going to be able to have any power over my 'blood flow' (for example). And when I state this I am not speaking about being able to 'push button' kill me, but I am also talking about those who will be in charge of the monitoring, as well.

Can we say lawsuits? This is AMerica were talking about and lawsuits make our 'world go round' (unfortunately), so can you picture some tech, or monitoring station/alert response team being a lil slow to send a medic (again, Im using the medical emergency example) to arrive after a chipping tech signal goes out? They would be being sued left and right.

Not to mention the corruption of our health care system infecting this arena as well. *chipping alert: "Cheney's blood is pumping too fast! Get a medic! Screw the old lady on the line complaining of heart pains, we must get to Cheney."

Evil and corruption exist everywhere- As Ive said before OM, although your intentions are well, 'Absolute power, corrupts absolutely' - If not for identity theft reasons, then forsee the chipping as another capitalist invention waiting to be infiltrated.

P.S.- Guys, whats the point in arguing? Dont take offense to other posters (well, unless they were quite explicit ) - Your frustration and anger will only weaken your arguments, and I'd like to hear your arguments But, Im not tellin you all something you dont already know, so.....

I don't need to provide anything, I've provided evidence on various issues

I havnt noticed any real evidence, just hearsay and theories.

and then launch personal insults, as a result of it.

No, i just launch insults.

I know the history of such things, its not my place to teach you.

Then why are you trying to convince me? If not to teach me?

I agree with the first part of your statement. A chip would definitely come in handy if used correctly, especially in your example where it could be a matter of life and death.

Why thank you. With the ideas on the vision of the future, the way the chip idea we have is my personal work. Im rather proud of it

right direction as far as an evolutionary change. And, who am I to question that, right?

Hmmm...this is different, when i say 'evolution' i need to clarify it.

Humankind, as the toolmaker, has long ago replaced physical evolution.

this is obvious through a number of reasons.

1. Our reliance on medicine and other things. This goal, while noble, has stunted natural evolution due to us not allowing the weak to die.

This is good, dont say i think that it isnt good. My mother would have died of Thyroid cancer if this wasnt so. But the fact remains that not allowing the weak to die means that it isnt only the fittest who survive.

2. The Tools we make force us to abandon physical evolution, we replace our evolution with the evolution of technology. Wielding the computer as a human evolution is a good way to look at it.

Basically, im saying that Humans use technology instead of conventional 'natural' evolution.

You are free to say it is bad, but when technology and ideas are involved, you have to keep your mind open. You have to look at it from all angles and see it from the creators point of view. Not just dismiss it because of older values and ideals.

I agree with the first part of your statement. A chip would definitely come in handy if used correctly, especially in your example where it could be a matter of life and death.

This is why this idea is left in the theoretical stage...well...at least until i get into power

Alert when blood stops flowing, great, but whoes to say it wont be able to stop the blood from flowing ?

Well being a microchip it would not actually have any way to do this. Having something strong enough to hold back the pressure of bloodflow would be above a microchip.

Also, the alarm system would be completly isolated from the rest of the chip. Meaning if somehow the chip stopped bloodflow, then the alarm would still go off.

Also, on the identity theft issue, a friend of mine came up with the idea that as a subsidiary to the alarm a secondary wire or system should be installed which breaks if the microchip is removed.

So if the single 'help' alarm is called, then we know the person is injured and requires immediate medical attention.

If the 'stolen chip' alarm is called, then we know we have identity theft on our hands and appropriate action must be called.

And some corrupt official, low paid monitor or theif isn't going to be able to have any power over my 'blood flow' (for example).

Again, the production of the chip would need to be very open, every step should be shown to the people and no secrets should be kept.

Why keep secrets? There is no point.

And when I state this I am not speaking about being able to 'push button' kill me, but I am also talking about those who will be in charge of the monitoring, as well.

This is why the Alarm is a automated system. 3 independent technicians are called in at different intervals to check the system regularily, so advancements and tuneups will be constant, and no problems are found.

Can we say lawsuits? This is AMerica were talking about and lawsuits make our 'world go round' (unfortunately), so can you picture some tech, or monitoring station/alert response team being a lil slow to send a medic (again, Im using the medical emergency example) to arrive after a chipping tech signal goes out? They would be being sued left and right.

You think someone would actually do this? They have no reason to, they gain nothing from it.

Not to mention the corruption of our health care system infecting this arena as well. *chipping alert: "Cheney's blood is pumping too fast! Get a medic! Screw the old lady on the line complaining of heart pains, we must get to Cheney."

Corruption is a major issue. One which i personally would like to combat. There will be no prioritizing of the injured or the sick. The alarm will sound and the name, location and medical details of the person will be open to the medical team.

This may be a breach of Privacy, but what is more important? Privacy or life?

Evil and corruption exist everywhere- As Ive said before OM, although your intentions are well, 'Absolute power, corrupts absolutely'

I have heard this phrase many times. I dont believe it for a moment.

Consider a man like Martin Luther King junior.

He had a gift, he was charismatic and could sway people to do what he wished.

He managed to control the black population of America and got them to a stance of non violence.

Was he corrupted? He wielded his gift. He was such a gifted orator he could easily have told the black masses to do anything and they would do it.

A person who can be corrupted, is one who does not understand what he is using his power for. One who uses it for other motives.

If not for identity theft reasons, then forsee the chipping as another capitalist invention waiting to be infiltrated.

You know my plans, Nowayreally. They are nothing like Capitalism.

P.S.- Guys, whats the point in arguing? Dont take offense to other posters (well, unless they were quite explicit

I argue because i have pride, sense and i know what i am trying to say, but lack the eloquence to type it.

Which, of course, gets on my nerves.

Your frustration and anger will only weaken your arguments, and I'd like to hear your arguments But, Im not tellin you all something you dont already know, so.....

Thank you Nowayreally Once again youve managed to calm the storm which is me

Octavius Maximus

nowayreally
Can we say lawsuits? This is AMerica were talking about and lawsuits make our 'world go round' (unfortunately), so can you picture some tech, or monitoring station/alert response team being a lil slow to send a medic (again, Im using the medical emergency example) to arrive after a chipping tech signal goes out? They would be being sued left and right.

You think someone would actually do this? They have no reason to, they gain nothing from it.

Money, my friend. They gain money. Welcome to America!

nowayreally
Not to mention the corruption of our health care system infecting this arena as well. *chipping alert: "Cheney's blood is pumping too fast! Get a medic! Screw the old lady on the line complaining of heart pains, we must get to Cheney."

Octavius Maximus
Corruption is a major issue. One which i personally would like to combat. There will be no prioritizing of the injured or the sick. The alarm will sound and the name, location and medical details of the person will be open to the medical team.

This may be a breach of Privacy, but what is more important? Privacy or life?

Yep, it's more important. You may find my opinion on this alarming, but Im keeping my child's future and life in mind while stateing this. My child could probably benifit from this devise, God forbid if something goes wrong. But, my child's future and rightly appointed (by birth, not by America) freedom is at stake. And, do I choose to 'go with it' and say 'yes' to chipping I am only making her future more difficult shall a 'new' G.W. administration takes place in her lifetime, and what? Will she then be sitting in my place typing about corruption/

Nowayreally

Evil and corruption exist everywhere- As Ive said before OM, although your intentions are well, 'Absolute power, corrupts absolutely'

Octavius Maximus
I have heard this phrase many times. I dont believe it for a moment.

Consider a man like Martin Luther King junior.

He had a gift, he was charismatic and could sway people to do what he wished.

He managed to control the black population of America and got them to a stance of non violence.

Was he corrupted? He wielded his gift. He was such a gifted orator he could easily have told the black masses to do anything and they would do it.

A person who can be corrupted, is one who does not understand what he is using his power for. One who uses it for other motives

I said 'Absolute power'. And, although I believe that Martin Luther King J.R. was one of the strongest most rational and passionate men that has existed in our history, and although he had the support of many, many people, I would not say he had 'power' in the truest sense of the word. He had support, and the power that comes from that, and he was most definitely a leader, he by no means had 'absolute power'. But, I do appreciate this example Octavius, it's just not valid in my opinion.

Money, my friend. They gain money. Welcome to America!

Who does? The tech who doesnt respond in time? Or the person who is injured?

The idea behind the lawsuit has been twisted. It has turned from a way for a person to fight back against a percieved injustice into a way of taking what you want for any sort of loss.

I wish people were smarter sometimes.

Yep, it's more important. You may find my opinion on this alarming, but Im keeping my child's future and life in mind while stateing this.

which do you say is more important?

From the sounds of it, you are saying privacy. I dont find your opinion alarming, not being a mother i cannot understand the emotions you go through.

And, do I choose to 'go with it' and say 'yes' to chipping I am only making her future more difficult shall a 'new' G.W. administration takes place in her lifetime, and what? Will she then be sitting in my place typing about corruption

Why would she be sitting and typing?

The Power of the people has been forgotten, noone realises the strength they hold in unity.

If someone in the world becomes corrupted, then it is the obligation of the people to rise up and let it be known.

If your daughter came to me and ordered that my corruption be at an end, i would thank her. The world is confusing enough without people looking out for only themselves. A leader needs to be in contact with his people, not his staff.

I am a champion of freedom of information and expression. A government should keep no secrets from its people, and a people should let their voices be heard, lest the government forgets what it is supposed to do...serve the people.

I am getting too philosophical though, for now.

Basically, my point is that a government is nothing more but the centre of the community. It needs to keep in touch with those it represents and should not be elevated above them.

Elevation means that people are frightened to let their voices and demands be known.

I said 'Absolute power'. And, although I believe that Martin Luther King J.R. was one of the strongest most rational and passionate men that has existed in our history, and although he had the support of many, many people, I would not say he had 'power' in the truest sense of the word.

That depends on what you mean by power.

The Power Martin Luther King wielded is stronger than the power of any king, Emperor or Prime minister.

His power was focused. He had his demands, he had his foe to conquer, he was powerful because his followers gave him their allegiance freely.

That is the kind of leadership i would like to aspire to, of course.

But i think the power Martin Luther wielded was stronger than that many others could claim.

Another example of Absolute power used wisely is Cyrus the Great. The creator of the Persian Empire.

He forged together nations and Empires and became the king of an incredibly powerful Empire. He used his power to help the jews, but only when they asked for it.

He would use his power to attack, but only when prompted to by another nation who called for aid.

When conquering a nation he did not erase it. He told them to keep their culture, their ideas, their religions.

All he asked was that they recognised the power of Ahura Mazda (the Persian god meaning "Wise Lord") and swore fealty to him, the king of Persia.

Now, Cyrus the Great managed to forge one of the largest recorded Empires by coming to the aid of those who needed him, he then left them to their own devices, albiet with extra protection.

In the Persian Empire at this time it was stable, and there was religious tolerance, gender equality and other things, all aimed at making the Empire great through the power of its people.

To my knowledge, Cyrus wasnt corrupted by his power. His (believed to be) Burial location is small and not overly extravagant considering his status.

Absolute power corrupts those who wish to be corrupted. There are those of us who think of others before ourselves.

ut, I do appreciate this example Octavius, it's just not valid in my opinion.

I hope you understand me more, now. Power is more than what is percieved. It goes deeper.

I definitely understand what you're saying- And optimism is a beautiful thing. Technology, and advancement of society is necessary. But, there are many advancements in society that have become corrupted and misused - God, even the television is my arch nemisis, so to speak. Do I watch TV, yes. Can it be useful, of course. Does it corrupt? It does. And, one could argue that it corrupts those that let themselves be corrupted; okay, this is also correct. But, what about the people in the middle? What about those who must abide by their surroundings, by Fox and ABC news, or reality televsion, for intelligence and entertainment. Is it fair to them?

Now, Im a little off topic here, but my point is clear in its essence, but hard to define exactly. Basically, Im all for conveinence. I'm constantly rushing around and things that make my life easier, well, I love them. And, I cannot stress enough how proud and reassuring it is to see Human growth and advancement. But if thats all that this boiled down to, well then, where the hell is my electronic GPS navigated car? Wheres the free medical help, and why is identity theft still a problem.

Give me a government who has PROVEN that they are, in fact, trying to help make our lives easier, and are not trying to 'gain' anything from this 'forward step' and I will glady take my ID/ the microchip happily. Until then.....Well, until then, Ill be here waiting for our American Revolution and praying for the lives of the 'good' and helpless.

But, there are many advancements in society that have become corrupted and misused - God, even the television is my arch nemisis, so to speak.

Television only corrupts because it is a one way conversation. Humans who wish to learn something prefer to talk about it and get the answers they need.

Television doesnt allow this.

If a person knows that what is presented on television is belief based on evidence, then they will be fine.

If a person believes what is presented on television is fact, then they will be corrupted.

I dont watch much TV beyond the history channel and discovery science, though

But, what about the people in the middle? What about those who must abide by their surroundings, by Fox and ABC news, or reality televsion, for intelligence and entertainment. Is it fair to them?

any information given to you must be accepted with an open mind.

i would hardly count reality shows 'information'...or even 'entertainment'

It isnt fair. But you need to remember that television is in its own way an unfair medium, simply because it is one-way information.

Now, Im a little off topic here

Ive ceased to care much about the topic

I just hope it survives!

Basically, Im all for conveinence. I'm constantly rushing around and things that make my life easier, well, I love them. And, I cannot stress enough how proud and reassuring it is to see Human growth and advancement. But if thats all that this boiled down to, well then, where the hell is my electronic GPS navigated car? Wheres the free medical help, and why is identity theft still a problem.

Hmmm i understand what you are saying. You want a technology provided which is completly above board and is used for the betterment of the people.

wait...you dont have GPS cars in America?

weird. We have them in Australia.

But no, the problem lies with corruption. For which you know my answer for . I dont think many ATS members would be impressed.

Im not sure if non American governments are as bad as the American. But i know that we have a good relationship.

If the people need something, the government gets it, if they cannot. Then they tell us the reason why.

If the government needs something done (such as the war of Iraq) they will do it, even against the peoples wishes. They will, though, give their reasons why they need it to be done.

Give me a government who has PROVEN that they are, in fact, trying to help make our lives easier, and are not trying to 'gain' anything from this 'forward step' and I will glady take my ID/ the microchip happily. Until then.....Well, until then, Ill be here waiting for our American Revolution and praying for the lives of the 'good' and helpless.

so...do i have your vote then?

No, we do have GPS cars here too What I was refering to was a GPS DRIVEN car. If we can use various forms of electricity in our everyday life, then why do I have a car running off expensive (to say the least) oil? For starters ...
and tv is one sided, but subliminal messages, and pure repetition 'memory', based on hearing it in many places and ways (even if via commercials) are known to exist and influence peoples behaviors subconsciously. And, that is not fair.

Originally posted by Octavius Maximus
Basically, my point is that a government is nothing more but the centre of the community. It needs to keep in touch with those it represents and should not be elevated above them.

So um which is it?


Before your stance was,
Government > People

Our stance was and is,
Government = People

Now your stance is,
Government = People?

Do you even know your stance or are you trying to have it both ways depending on who you are engaging in this thread?

Personally, I'd love a National ID Card.

But I don't think it should be required.

Sadly, I live in a state that has passed an initiative against accepting the cards, and I'm a little bummed out I'm not getting my chip, barcode, all seeing eye and goofy picture all on one handy and convienient card.

At the same time, I hope this isn't a state that's setting itself up for microchipping as an alternative - there is a large criminal element here.

Then again, that could be why they're not making the card available in this area - too many criminals, and the cards - if mandatory - would be a waste of taxpayers money. Everyone who got the new card and was of that persuasion would simply have the means to subvert the entire process and concept behind the card.

Ripping out chips, hacking them...etc.

I think it's best they just allow us to purchase them independantly and at our own discretion.

Heck, I'll pay for one in a heartbeat.

*edit for minor spelling errors

[edit on 1-9-2007 by GENERAL EYES]

No, we do have GPS cars here too What I was refering to was a GPS DRIVEN car.

heheh, while cool. That would be boring, i think. Nothing to do.

If we can use various forms of electricity in our everyday life, then why do I have a car running off expensive (to say the least) oil?

Because changing cars means that every single petrol station needs to be replaced as well, although i dont agree with the petrol decision, i would like to ask you how anyone would prepose to change every petrol station to an electric station with no lapse?

It will hav eto happen eventually, but im not sure anyone knows how to do it.

Before your stance was,
Government > People

Our stance was and is,
Government = People

Now your stance is,
Government = People?

My stance is the same as it ever was.

The government is of the people, but it is over them. It rules the people, but it needs to keep in touch with them. Lest it begins to create laws on percieved ideas of people, instead of the real thing.

Its like Tzar Nicholas II, Im sure he wasnt a bad person. But he was easily convinced by his wife, and he was 'kept safe' from the commoners, meaning he never got a chance to see the effect of his laws.

Do you even know your stance or are you trying to have it both ways depending on who you are engaging in this thread?

No, i just say nicer things to people who are open minded and accept my ideas, they dont need to be convinced, but they see the reason and the upsides of the idea.

Originally posted by Octavius MaximusMy stance is the same as it ever was.

The government is of the people, but it is over them. It rules the people, but it needs to keep in touch with them. Lest it begins to create laws on percieved ideas of people, instead of the real thing.

Originally posted by Octavius Maximus
Basically, my point is that a government is nothing more but the centre of the community. It needs to keep in touch with those it represents and should not be elevated above them.

So um which is it?


[edit on 1-9-2007 by C0le]

Will you pay attention for once?

My stance is the same as it ever was.

The government is of the people, but it is over them. It rules the people, but it needs to keep in touch with them. Lest it begins to create laws on percieved ideas of people, instead of the real thing.

Basically, my point is that a government is nothing more but the centre of the community. It needs to keep in touch with those it represents and should not be elevated above them.

You have the idea that to rule means you are elavated.

This isnt the case, and doesnt have to be the case.

The government is a body made for the people. Its power lies in the decisions it makes and the loyalty of the people.

I am saying that a government doesnt need to enforce superiority if it is good enough to gain the loyalty of the people.





[edit on 1-9-2007 by Octavius Maximus]

reply to post by St James


wheres is NJ?