Who Here Will Accept A Real ID Card???

You're not sure? Don't you think it would be wise to find out?

Not really, i have no need to

You see, i trust my government to do what they think is right for me, they have never given me a reason to doubt them so far beyond involvement in Iraq, and in that i can see the Political reason why, i will stand by it, even if i dont agree.

Which means, your Government grants you the right to speak your mind, however, they can take it away at any given moment that suits them.

[Heres the difference, The government wont do so because they fear us. they fear the reprisal of the people.

Also, they are made up of Australians, they know that each Aussie makes the country great. So each needs to be tended to.

I don't know what you're talking about, nor what that has to do with the U.S.

Ah yes, because talking about anything but the U.S. is heresy. BURN THE WITCH!

I don't know, and according to your first statement, neither do you.

Why? Im examining every angle.

I'm well aware of American history.

America is a young country, Monetary systems have been around alot longer than America, boy.

*rolls eyes*

if you were paying attention then you would realise i was saying that although our government has the power to take away our rights, they dont because they have nothing to gain from it.

Your system allows your government to gain from its people losing rights, so they do so.

You've provided nothing to your argument, whether or not spoken, to back it up

Have you heard me speak? No, you have seen my typing...actually read what im typing for once, please?

other than the "cause my sister, that works for the newspaper, said so".

I mentioned her once, she works in the media, so i know any information she backs, i can trust.

Not here in the United States. We're protected against an intrusive Government, unlike Australia.

Protected so much they dont even give you free health care? Wow, your government loves you

And you expect me to believe that it wouldn't happen again?

If you believe it will, it will.

It's un-American because it allows the Government to be intrusive, which we just so happen to be free from enduring.

Awww...then the government should stop spending money on police altogether. If you get attacked, you dont want them to intrude, do you?

Difficult yes, impossible no

Wrong...Freedom=chaos, that is the nature of freedom. It is impossible to bring complete order to a system of complete chaos.

How is my demanding that the Government stay out of my personal life, lying about my identity?

I will just say, that a government which intrudes into a persons personal life is a bad government.

Now, if your government wants to do that, it is a bad government.

Government is created by people from your society, meaning that it is a focal point of extelligence (culture)

So now, you give members of your culture power, and they use it to intrude upon other peoples private lives.

Doesnt look good, does it?

The freedom to walk through a street and not be looked at (which is, of course, impossible)

You're comparing apples to oranges.

yep, both fruit, both delicious, both in the basket behind me, both are picked in Queensland, etc, etc.

There's not justifiable reason why I should now prove myself an American citizen

There's not justifiable reason why I should now prove myself an American citizen, as means for them to intrude on my privacy, in order for me to take advantage of Federal benefits

So you want benefits without the disadvantages?

The only way you can do that is if you steal a bunch of lottery tickets and get lucky.

And what do you think I'm doing, or not doing for that matter?

Your whining that you have to put one more piece of plastic in your wallet.

Seriously, is it that bad?

"Generally", Americans know they don't have to give up liberties to obtain a false sense of security.

theres the thing. You grow stubborn. You say "I want freedom to do anything" the government wants to say no, but cant because of your constitution. So they then have to manipulate you to want something they can provide.

Thats why in other countries governments are different. They get things done and they dont need to sneak around their people.

Thats what happens when you get 'freedom'. it allows Anything to happen, including the bad.

By "anything" happening, is it so wrong of me to hold my elected representatives accountable for their wrongdoings?

No, because YOU voted for them. Your fault for choosing the wrong person.

I rest my case.

good good

\
Couldn't be further from the truth.

Here is the problem with arguing with Americans, your all so doped up on 'freedom' that you change your opinions and arguements at a moments notice.

Because, it's the supreme law that protects me.

Luckily, i dont need to be protected by my government, we understand each other.

Then start a thread about Australians getting a National ID card.

I'd like to post all of my plans somewhere, but i dont find a relevant section.

You ever heard the expression, "Never bring a knife to a gunfight."?

I dont agree with that expression. Ironically enough we did some against firearm work tonight, highly interesting.

Then, please explain to me why you continue to rant in this thread?

maybe because im a masochist, who knows?

Struck a nerve there, didn't I?

Um...you did?

Historically proven... the only way anyone has been able to make "terrorist attacks" on American soil, is by someone in the Government *allowing* it to happen. I think that contradicts your point.

really? The official story of the last one doesnt help your point, does it.

A criminal is not acting according to morals/ethics.

thats not a generalisation, at all.

He is not acting to YOUR morals or Ethics, he is going by his, which are different.

Not in the context that we began the discussion.

you mean yes, then?

You have to be conscious of how you use other viewpoints.
/quote]

v
Just trying to be respectful of the OP and the Terms and Conditions, and to stay on topic.

Discussion is a mutable creature, it changes and flows.

You cannot keep it on topic, just as you cannot put a leash on water.

Here you go with the "do my work for me". Look it up.

You want to accuse? you have to do the work. You cant just tell other people to do research for your accusations.

That person gave me no reason to believe he would change. Trust is earned, remember.

No, it isnt. it is given to those who need it. Just like Respect and forgiveness.

Examining each nut and bolt allow you to see the entire picture

Just like looking at each pixel tells you what a photo looks like?

no, sorry. You see nothing

So you protest, hooray. i have no way of telling if you are talking bull# or not.

Research it. Make that conclusion on your own.

Again, no. You make allegations. you back them up with your own evidence

Lazy

You're catching on.

Yeah i know, ive finally realised not to assume those basic human things such as respect, trust or anything else.

They should add them to the constitution, then you'd embrace them wholeheartedly.

Being told that your free. Strange.

We're working on that each and every day. Change takes time. Nothing (within reason) happens overnight.

Well think of this.

During World War two, Newspapers didnt really run on the weekends.

So Hitler attacked Poland on friday.

by monday, it was all over.

So the Newspapers came back in time to say "we now have a new owner."

If you believe something enough, and are prepared to sacrifice all for it, you will get it, and quickly.

Until then, you languish in the red tape.

Have a great day Dont hurt yourself, it costs a packet




[edit on 6/9/07 by JAK]

reply to post by Octavius Maximus

Not really, i have no need to

Reread your comment. Take that in for a moment.

You see, i trust my government to do what they think is right for me, they have never given me a reason to doubt them so far beyond involvement in Iraq, and in that i can see the Political reason why, i will stand by it, even if i dont agree.

Your prerogative. What shall you do when they actually give you a reason to doubt them? You'll be shocked to learn Iraq was/is a complete farce. Your PM ran right along side of Bush, making him just as responsible. They all acted on the same lies. Just too bad you bought it... and if you didn't... you're sure as the hell not doing anything about it.

Heres the difference, The government wont do so because they fear us. they fear the reprisal of the people.

Your Government fears it's people no more than mine does... in fact, ours probably does so more, simply for the reason that we are free to keep and bear arms.

Also, they are made up of Australians, they know that each Aussie makes the country great. So each needs to be tended to.

Our Government is made up of Americans... how does that make either Nation any different?

Ah yes, because talking about anything but the U.S. is heresy. BURN THE WITCH!

No, because that comment had nothing to do with the thread/topic.

Why? Im examining every angle.

Because you've shown zero credibility thus far in this thread/discussion/debate/debacle/etc....

America is a young country, Monetary systems have been around alot longer than America, boy.

You're kidding me!?

You wouldn't be referring to something back in the times of the Roman Empire would ya?

*rolls eyes*

.....they dont because they have nothing to gain from it.

That you are aware of.

Your system allows your government to gain from its people losing rights, so they do so.

As I've admitted before, yes there's a lot of corruption in our Government... however, we, as Americans, are working every day to change that.

Have you heard me speak? No, you have seen my typing...actually read what im typing for once, please?

I have a 10 year old son that would snicker at that comment.

I mentioned her once, she works in the media, so i know any information she backs, i can trust.

And I can trust everything printed in the National Enquirer?

Protected so much they dont even give you free health care? Wow, your government loves you

Where does health care fit into a scenario of protection that we've talked about?

If you believe it will, it will.

Yep... history repeats itself.

Awww...then the government should stop spending money on police altogether. If you get attacked, you dont want them to intrude, do you?

Go back and read the entire thread again, so that you are competent to debate further... please. Intruding privacies and the "To Protect and To Serve" issues are different.

Wrong...Freedom=chaos, that is the nature of freedom. It is impossible to bring complete order to a system of complete chaos.

You are absolutely correct... and that's why there is so much chaos... everyone wants to be free (worldwide)... but not everyone has that lifelong probability. It shouldn't be that way, but it is.

I will just say, that a government which intrudes into a persons personal life is a bad government.

FINALLY... I agree.

Now, if your government wants to do that, it is a bad government.

Isn't that the entire point of this thread?

Government is created by people from your society, meaning that it is a focal point of extelligence (culture)

Nope.. the focal point of our culture is the people.. not the Government. The Government is to protect our culture, thus protecting the people.

So now, you give members of your culture power, and they use it to intrude upon other peoples private lives.

They misuse it... and I for one will hold them accountable.

Doesnt look good, does it?

Nope.

yep, both fruit, both delicious, both in the basket behind me, both are picked in Queensland, etc, etc.

Seriously.. should I have my child take my place?

So you want benefits without the disadvantages?

You have absolutely no clue of how the American system works, do you? You've made that abundantly clear.

The only way you can do that is if you steal a bunch of lottery tickets and get lucky.

Isn't that kind of like putting faith in God?

Your whining that you have to put one more piece of plastic in your wallet.

Haven't you "typed" through this entire thread about how this one card would replace all others? Now you say it's just one more? Make up your mind... please.

So they then have to manipulate you to want something they can provide.

They try.

Thats why in other countries governments are different. They get things done and they dont need to sneak around their people.

You've lived a very sheltered life if you believe all other Governments of the world are sweet, kind, and sincere.

No, because YOU voted for them. Your fault for choosing the wrong person.

Kinda goes back to the issue of manipulating people to believe in you doesn't it.

Here is the problem with arguing with Americans, your all so doped up on 'freedom' that you change your opinions and arguements at a moments notice.

I've actually counted nearly a dozen times that you've done just that though our discussion.

Luckily, i dont need to be protected by my government, we understand each other.

You're both just as immature, overzealous, pompass, and ill informed?

I'd like to post all of my plans somewhere, but i dont find a relevant section.

Just throw it out there... the mods will move it to the proper location.

I dont agree with that expression. Ironically enough we did some against firearm work tonight, highly interesting.

Since you've heard of it... do you understand it?

maybe because im a masochist, who knows?

You need help.

Um...you did?

Must have.

really? The official story of the last one doesnt help your point, does it.

If you believe the "official story of 9/11", I would have to suggest that you do more research... but I "trust" you won't anyway.

thats not a generalisation, at all.

He is not acting to YOUR morals or Ethics, he is going by his, which are different.

No, he's not acting to mine. No for the reasons we've discussed.

you mean yes, then?

Nope.

[edit on 8/27/2007 by Infoholic]

reply to post by Octavius Maximus

Discussion is a mutable creature, it changes and flows.

That would be true if this was your forum, however it's not.

You cannot keep it on topic, just as you cannot put a leash on water.

You've made that abundantly clear.

No, screw you

Disprove me.... for once... please.

You want to accuse? you have to do the work. You cant just tell other people to do research for your accusations.

But I can tell you to disprove me... which you haven't been able to do for how many pages now?

No, it isnt. it is given to those who need it. Just like Respect and forgiveness.

Negative, Ghost Rider. You want my respect... earn it. You want my trust... earn it. You want my forgiveness... earn it.

no, sorry. You see nothing

You see how it was built.

Again, no. You make allegations. you back them up with your own evidence

Again... disprove it.

Lazy

I would have stopped at your first post of blatant hypocrisies and utter misinformation.

Yeah i know, ive finally realised not to assume those basic human things such as respect, trust or anything else.

I thought you just said those things are given... are we changing our discussion again?

They should add them to the constitution, then you'd embrace them wholeheartedly.

They wouldn't be there, because our Nation is free... free to choose. Free will.

Being told that your free. Strange.

Being told that I'm free.... by myself... now that's a strange concept, isn't it?

..............If you believe something enough, and are prepared to sacrifice all for it, you will get it, and quickly.

Yep.... but not miraculously overnight.

Have a great day

I will.

Dont hurt yourself, it costs a packet

ooooo k

[edit on 8/27/2007 by Infoholic]

edit

[edit on 27-8-2007 by C0le]

Not really, i have no need to

Reread your comment. Take that in for a moment.

I did, and reread it again, and discussed it at length with a good friend of mine.

He doesnt know if we have freedom of speech either. Weve come to the conclusion that this shows the difference between our cultures, simply because an Australian has power, doesnt mean he uses it.

But An American abuses it, weve seen it through history many times.

What shall you do when they actually give you a reason to doubt them? You'll be shocked to learn Iraq was/is a complete farce. Your PM ran right along side of Bush, making him just as responsible. They all acted on the same lies. Just too bad you bought it... and if you didn't... you're sure as the hell not doing anything about it.

As i said before, i dont agree with it, but i see the wisdom of it.

Bush basically said that if any country doesnt ally with him, they will be considered their enemies.

Mr John Howard decides that such a random and Chaotic force such as America is destructive, and he would rather that force pointed away from us, rather than at us.

I understand the wisdom with allying with America, if only so we dont have to suffer from its control (which it WILL attempt).

I may be against the war, but the wisdom of using it as a bargaining chip i can see.

And i will quote what a friend of mine told me (who is currently in Iraq) "eh, im not worried, thousands of Americans to shoot before anyone considers me"

Your Government fears it's people no more than mine does

Then why does it go to such lengths to manipulate and control you?

in fact, ours probably does so more, simply for the reason that we are free to keep and bear arms

Wrong again, your right to bear arms is just another small factor in the overall ability of the government.

You should know that in a propeganda war, the Government will beat the people.

So if you go for your guns the world will view you as savage and ill educated. In the long run, the government will win.

Also, they are made up of Australians, they know that each Aussie makes the country great. So each needs to be tended to.

Our Government is made up of Americans... how does that make either Nation any different?

Because as you can plainly see, an American with power instantly becomes a self serving monster.

Ah yes, because talking about anything but the U.S. is heresy. BURN THE WITCH!

No, because that comment had nothing to do with the thread/topic.

Im sure if someone mentions the US in a different topic you will all have no problem with it.

You're kidding me!?

You wouldn't be referring to something back in the times of the Roman Empire would ya?

Older, probably.

That you are aware of.

yes, and since i am not aware of anything else, i will make my judgement based on existing data, so i say again....they have nothing to gain from it.

As I've admitted before, yes there's a lot of corruption in our Government... however, we, as Americans, are working every day to change that.

Not hard enough, and your focussing on the wrong parts. Your pruning the branches, not demolishing the tree.

And I can trust everything printed in the National Enquirer?

The what?

Where does health care fit into a scenario of protection that we've talked about?

because having a population who is healthy makes them happier. To have a good government, you need good health care.

Yep... history repeats itself.

I have seen history repeat itself, but i have seen the influence of extelligence on the scenario played out.

It will be different.

Go back and read the entire thread again, so that you are competent to debate further... please. Intruding privacies and the "To Protect and To Serve" issues are different.

No, i wont. You dont want people interfering with your life? Fine, no police, no healthcare, nothing.

You want freedom? You get the bad as well as the good.

You are absolutely correct... and that's why there is so much chaos... everyone wants to be free (worldwide)... but not everyone has that lifelong probability. It shouldn't be that way, but it is.

Heres one thing, people say they want to be free. But they never finish the sentence, They want to be free to do what they want, and be good at it.

If i created a government i would base it on intelligence used for the benefit of mankind, not freedom. Freedom is so ambiguous.

FINALLY... I agree.

Ah, but your idea of 'personal life' is much stricter than mine.

What i consider personal life is that which goes on in the home. Beyond that, you are in public life. The government should have the right to know how you spend your public life because it needs that kind of data to govern effectively.

Isn't that the entire point of this thread?

Not as such, because it all comes down to have private you view 'private' to be.

Nope.. the focal point of our culture is the people

no it isnt, American culture is based on the ideals made FOR the people, not the people themselves. Herein lies the difference.

not the Government. The Government is to protect our culture, thus protecting the people.

The government is supposed to be those who protect the culture, true. But sometimes the people need to be protected from the culture.

Because your culture is based upon ideals, you need to know whether it is good to have an ideal as a culture, since an ideal is realistically unattainable.

You cannot have absolute freedom, because that means nothing would happen and your nation would tear itself apart.

You cannot have absolute privacy unless you lock yourself in a box, etc.

They misuse it... and I for one will hold them accountable.

But they are just the same as you...with power. You should not punish others for these things, especially since you would do much the same given the same peer and political pressure they are under.

Seriously.. should I have my child take my place?

Perhaps, i would like to talk to someone else, you begin to bore me.

You have absolutely no clue of how the American system works, do you? You've made that abundantly clear.

Theres the thing though...the American system works in the same way a seive works for catching water.

It does the job...not very well at all, though.

Isn't that kind of like putting faith in God?

No since there is a possibility of winning with the lottery, not so with god.

well, not when it matters anyway.

Haven't you "typed" through this entire thread about how this one card would replace all others? Now you say it's just one more? Make up your mind... please.

I will when you stop attributing your own beliefs to the so called 'evil' of this card.

My ideal is a chip (so it cant be lost) with all cards and information on it.

If people only accept a card, so be it. They should not complain about the disadvantages, however, since they refused the chip.

So now you complain about a citizenship card, i dont care what it does do and what it doesnt do. All i know is that it is a little tiny plastic card.

Your priorities are skewed if this is the great evil your ranting about.

They try.

They succeed, the best thing about manipulation is that the person being manipulated has no idea.

Your protest against this card can be exactly what the manipulator wants, and i can forsee a few scenarios where mass protest can be a benefit to your government.

Thats why in other countries governments are different. They get things done and they dont need to sneak around their people.

You've lived a very sheltered life if you believe all other Governments of the world are sweet, kind, and sincere.

No, i know the government i am in do what is required. Other governments may not, i dont have to care. All i can see is the evidence, and America is a shambles, the people are to blame.

Kinda goes back to the issue of manipulating people to believe in you doesn't it.

Yes, and you were manipulated. Go you

Or did you just not vote?

Bah, voting should be compulsary, its the only way to get a fair impression.

I've actually counted nearly a dozen times that you've done just that though our discussion.

Thats because win or lose, it means nothing to me.

You're both just as immature, overzealous, pompass, and ill informed?

Its spelt Pompous! Goddamn it.

Anyway, maybe we are, maybe we arnt. But you seem exactly like what i think when i think of America. completely ignorant of your own corruption. Its not the government, its the people. You are all in it for yourselves, Your government is wrong, because the people are wrong, the people who vote and dont vote for it are wrong.

Your culture creates these people who do whatever they can to gain power, and as soon as they get it, they abuse it.

I'd like to post all of my plans somewhere, but i dont find a relevant section.

Just throw it out there... the mods will move it to the proper location.

No thank you. If i am creating something, it needs to be done properly. I wont tell people to do my work for me.

Unlike you, who creates allegations and tells others to research.

Since you've heard of it... do you understand it?

Of course, it speaks of being ill prepared.

You need help.

And in Australia i dont need to pay to get it

Must have.

...aahuh.

If you believe the "official story of 9/11", I would have to suggest that you do more research... but I "trust" you won't anyway.

Ive done the research, listened to the stupid rantings of people saying that someone managed to put bombs all the way through the buildings, or that no plane hit the pentagon.

Pfff, I know what i believe, and it fits in with the official story.

No, he's not acting to mine. No for the reasons we've discussed.

But you cannot say he is 'wrong' just because his beliefs dont match yours.

That would be true if this was your forum, however it's not.

Forum discussion and true debate are entirely different things

Disprove me.... for once... please.

Youve given me nothing to disprove.

But I can tell you to disprove me... which you haven't been able to do for how many pages now?

Disprove what?

Negative, Ghost Rider.

Never saw that "movie"

You want my respect... earn it. You want my trust... earn it. You want my forgiveness... earn it.

You dont give respect, trust or forgiveness to those you dont know?

You sad man.

You see how it was built.

No, you dont. You see what it is built out of.

You may look at hundreds of Carbon atoms, see them all. If your good at Chemistry you may note that these would make something incredibly dense and strong.

But, it makes a Diamond, It is dense and strong, true. But its main point is its beauty.

Seeing the cogs doesnt show you the machine.

Again... disprove it.

Give me your evidence to disprove.

I thought you just said those things are given

Yes, i said you should give them until a person loses them.

I would have given you respect, but your stubborn stupidity has lost it.

They wouldn't be there, because our Nation is free... free to choose. Free will.

Free to stuff up again, and again, and again.

Being told that I'm free.... by myself

Did you write the constitution? No you didnt.

Still, needing to be told you are free. Its an odd concept.

Over here, its just given.

Yep.... but not miraculously overnight.

Depends how hard you work.

ooooo k

Its true, no free health care is yet another thing i can add to the list of "American mistakes"





[Mod Edit: Personal profanity removed. Please read T&C's. Thank you - Jak]



[edit on 6/9/07 by JAK]

Originally posted by Octavius Maximus

Your power doesnt have the power to rule?

Uuuuhhh...if you think this i cant even try to convince you.

"Government is not reason; it is not eloquence. It is force. And force, like fire, is a dangerous servant and a fearful master." George Washington

A wise and frugal government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, which shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government, and this is necessary to close the circle of our felicity. Thomas Jefferson

"You have rights antecedent to all earthly governments; rights that cannot be repealed or restrained by human laws; rights derived from the Great Legislator of the Universe" John Adams - 2nd Pres.

"The Constitution of most of our states (and of the United States) assert that all power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it by themselves; that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed and that they are entitled to freedom of person, freedom of religion, freedom of property, and freedom of press." Thomas Jefferson

"I know of no safe depository of the ultimate powers of society but the people themselves and if we think them not enlightened enough to exercise their control with a wholesome discretion, the remedy is not to take it from them, but to inform them."

"There is not a shadow of right in the general government to intermeddle in religion. It's least interference with it would be a most flagrant usurpation." James Madison

It has a #ing global effect. Your right to bear arms means that you have to keep production of guns up high, meaning those pointless deathdealers keep on getting made when any intelligent population would have scrapped them long ago.

Well...they would if they had any honour at all.

First the demand for Arms would continue regardless of our RTBA, Wars require guns, As long as war exists so will guns, You may want to look to Russia for the Arms problem seeing as they are the ones who have flooded the earth with The weapons which continue to Arm rebellions, and militaries alike. 100,000,000 and counting, On the AK 47 alone.

Just some stats on western countries based off an anti gun stat I found which looked like this

Country Gun Deaths

1.USA 11344
2.Canada 184
3.England 73
4.Australia 56
5.Sweden 37
6.New Zealand 5


Now lets Take population and percentage into account.


Country Gun deaths Population %

New Zealand 5 4,115,771 1.2%
England 73 60,776,238 1.2%
Australia 56 20,434,176 2.7%
USA 11344 301,139,947 3.7%
Sweden 37 9,031,088 4.0%
Canada 184 33,390,141 5.5%

With just these values added, the USA drops to mid range, Would you like me to add statistics on The amount of guns owned within these respected countries, which would further drop the USA's ranking on that list?

No, its the other way round. That because the world doesn't have something, that Americans need to have it.

Its called arrogance, and it pisses people off.

Americans Have had arms long before you were born and able to have this opinion, And yes you are right, Freedom isn't something we "need" its something we have and something we wont lose without a fight, We don't base such things on rather or not you or anyone else have them.

If the desire for Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, is arrogance, then you can call me an arrogant sob any day of the week.

Thats why so many criminals and crimes go unnoticed, you need to be PROVED guilty. These cameras provide PROOF.

Criminals only go unnoticed because Law enforcement doesn't do there jobs, Personal liberty doesn't prevent this from occurring.



[edit on 27-8-2007 by C0le]

Thats why so many criminals and crimes go unnoticed, you need to be PROVED guilty. These cameras provide

PROOF.

When were cameras mentioned, I only recall the mentioning of private files?

Since you prefer having criminals on the streets?

No I don't recall saying this.
If they are indeed criminals, and have done wrong, law enforcement should have no problems getting a court

ordered warrant to do the things you suggested.

Looks like paper to me...

Well i live rather well without the American constitution...ive never been unjustly treated by my

government.

Just because you haven't doesn't mean they cant, The American Constitution isn't a piece of paper in the manner

you are referring, yes it is ON a piece of paper, but it isn't just a piece of paper, Its the foundation of a

free society, where man rules only himself, and any Governing entities purpose is to protect man from losing

his liberties and freedoms born to him, The power of our government isn't the power to rule, but the selfish

nature of freedom itself, those in power will protect that freedom so they themselves will not lose it.

This works until a tyrant comes to be, In such cases it is the will of the people to oust such tyrants and the

will of the people to institute new leadership and new government based upon the foundations of the

constitution.

This will was insured to the people by the people.

Well...your not accepting a good idea when it comes because it would be 'unconstitutional'. Standing up

for rights against the common good. Sounds like you havn't thought the causality through.

As stated my country was formed on the power of the people, the individual authority of ones self, I and I

alone will decide rather or not it serves my interests, If my country wants to institute such things is is the

right of the people, but it also the right of the people to not accept or be punished for such things, If

someone wants this ID then it is there right to accept it, but it is my right not to accept it.

The word Republic comes from the latin Re Publica, meaning 'for the people'. It was created as a name

for THE ROMAN REPUBLIC.

America wasn't the first, you should know that.

The Constitutional Republic, that my country was founded upon, and not a Democracy in which 51% controls the

other 49%, Intended purpose is to protect the unalienable rights of all human beings within its boundaries, It

prevents outside entities from taking away these rights as well as inside entities, No man, No majority, and no

government can take these unalienable rights away
.
"Albert Gallatin: The whole of that Bill of Rights is a declaration of the right of the people at large or

considered as individuals...It establishes rights of the individual as unalienable and which consequently, no

majority has a right to deprive them of. (to Alexander Addison, Oct 7, 1789, MS. in N.Y. Hist. Soc.-A.G.

Papers, 2.)

A few hundred years ago, the fact was that the universe orbited around the world.

Woops.

Not all 'facts' are true.

Save for the fact that those "facts" weren't "proven" so had no basis of

foundation.

Fact, Americans as well as the rest of the world, rather they accept them or not, have unalienable rights we

are born with, and these rights are being diminished. this isn't a world is flat scenario.
This is proven. As was the world being round.

Wars require guns

War was around before guns were, it was alot more honourable, and much harder to decide. To kill a man you had to see them die.

you dont just spray bullets.

Country Gun Deaths

1.USA 11344
2.Canada 184
3.England 73
4.Australia 56
5.Sweden 37
6.New Zealand 5

Im ignoring the other examples you give because they are superfluous.

You are talking about deaths and you look at Percentages?

You monster, the blood of 11,344 people are on your hands. Dont try and dim it with total populations, you have 11,344 people dead, that is the only fact i see.

Would you like me to add statistics on The amount of guns owned within these respected countries, which would further drop the USA's ranking on that list?

No, because that is just trying to move your responsibility and lessen the guilt.

If the desire for Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, is arrogance, then you can call me an arrogant sob any day of the week.

No, it isnt arrogant. Its the belief that you are somehow 'better' than the rest of the world is Arrogant.

Criminals only go unnoticed because Law enforcement doesn't do there jobs, Personal liberty doesn't prevent this from occurring.

its easy to say this from a couch. Personal liberty DOES prevent this from occuring, because people can hide behind their rights.

It is not the fault of the police that the criminals arnt caught, its the fault of the people who hide the crime.

No I don't recall saying this.
If they are indeed criminals, and have done wrong, law enforcement should have no problems getting a court

ordered warrant to do the things you suggested.

Law enforcement DO have problems, because the fact that to catch a criminal is much harder than most people think.

Just because you haven't doesn't mean they cant

Just because they can doesnt mean they will.

Its the foundation of a free society

Its the foundation of a nation which is based upon 'freedom', yes.

where man rules only himself

Except laws exist.

and any Governing entities purpose is to protect man from losing

his liberties and freedoms born to him

But they can put people under house arrest, quarantine, incarceration, etc.

The power of our government isn't the power to rule

But it is ruling, is it not?

those in power will protect that freedom so they themselves will not lose it.

So everyone is making this mad grab for power? So the haves dont lose what they have?

This works until a tyrant comes to be, In such cases it is the will of the people to oust such tyrants

George Bush is in his second elected reign.

will of the people to institute new leadership and new government based upon the foundations of the

constitution.

But if a government based on the constitution goes wrong, and has to be replaced, putting another government based on the constitution will result in the same thing.

If

someone wants this ID then it is there right to accept it, but it is my right not to accept it.

but if not all agree, then the ID is pointless, meaning you are stripping people their right to the ID because it will not then serve the purpose it was created for.

and no government can take these unalienable rights away

I find it strange that a government needs to be forced to not violate human rights?

Other governments dont need to be restricted in such a manner because they dont abuse their power to that degree.

Fact, Americans as well as the rest of the world, rather they accept them or not, have unalienable rights we are born with, and these rights are being diminished

fact, beliefs differ over time, and differ with culture. So what is fact at one time is not necessarily fact at another.

With this, it means that having a completly unalienable constitution is a bad idea in the long run in the case of certain events, such as guns being too powerful eventually. You will want them, the government doesnt want you to kill each other.

You say the government is evil because it is protecting you from your culture or Right to Bear arms.

This is proven. As was the world being round.

Yes, It may be proven (ive found no real evidence for it, just hearsay and conjecture) but perhaps you will think that your rights need to be diminished in some way?

*yawn*

No, I won't take the National ID card. There is no justifiable reason for me to carry "more" personally identifiable papers. I am a free man, and I will remain as such.

Yes, I'm willing to take the repercussions that come with it.

*yawn*

No, I won't take the National ID card. There is no justifiable reason for me to carry "more" personally identifiable papers. I am a free man, and I will remain as such.

Yes, I'm willing to take the repercussions that come with it.

This is what ive reduced you too?

oh well, i thought you had promise.

You can live with your freedom all you wish, although you will stay where you are, unmoving.

Those of us who can see the wisdom in such things, we will move forward.

Originally posted by Octavius Maximus


Im ignoring the other examples you give because they are superfluous.

You are talking about deaths and you look at Percentages?

You monster, the blood of 11,344 people are on your hands. Dont try and dim it with total populations, you have 11,344 people dead, that is the only fact i see.

You Ignor the very example which illustrates that the number of deaths is no difference then that of the rest of the world?The US death rate via guns is not much different then that of Australia, so you are ignoring FACTS congratulations . Again another example of that you cant argue your view when facts are presented, because you views have no foundation.

No, because that is just trying to move your responsibility and lessen the guilt.

No its not, it just goes to who the USA crime rate via guns i no worse then that of any other nation, you get 300 million people down in Australia and your gonna have the same amount of deaths, the stats show it pal.

No, it isnt arrogant. Its the belief that you are somehow 'better' than the rest of the world is Arrogant.

Again where are you getting this from, I've never said I'm better then anyone, EVERYTIME I've mentioned freedom, I've included the whole world even yourself, I've never said my rights are mine because I'm AMERICAN, I've said they are mine by birth, just like everyone else, You are again trying to argue something completely contradictory to what I've said, congratulations.

its easy to say this from a couch. Personal liberty DOES prevent this from occuring, because people can hide behind their rights.

Its easy to say a lot of things from the couch, Right you now your working on that forth star.

And no they aren't hiding behind there rights, theres nothing to hide behind, if they committed crime they committed crime, fact, if this is the case, the law will have no problems prosecuting them.

It is not the fault of the police that the criminals aren't caught, its the fault of the people who hide the crime.

The police's job is to find and help prosecute criminals, The criminals job is to be a criminal, as as bad as he may be.

No proof
No witnesses, you cant throw him in jail.

Law enforcement DO have problems, because the fact that to catch a criminal is much harder than most people think.

Again, if this criminals committed crime, then they can get warrants and do.

Just because they can doesnt mean they will.

And guess what the doors closed on my end, its wide open on yours, all them criminals are gonna start walking right in eventually, and the police will be on there side.

[edit on 28-8-2007 by C0le]

Its the foundation of a nation which is based upon 'freedom', yes.

I'm glad you agree.

Except laws exist.

Yes laws do exist, and until i break such laws, I'm free to do that which i want without government intervention.

But they can put people under house arrest, quarantine, incarceration, etc.

Yes they can, when those people have broken the law and are being punished for such things, Again until that day comes, im free to do what i want without government intervention.

But it is ruling, is it not?

Partially, but it doesn't have any constitutional power to do so.
and just because it does something, doesn't make it right.

So everyone is making this mad grab for power? So the haves don't lose what they have?

I cant even decipher this sentence.

George Bush is in his second elected reign.

And your point is? Last time i checked the people are demonstrating, protesting doing what we can to change things, In a peaceful manner, would you like us to resort to violence now so that you can claim we are nothing but savages?

But if a government based on the constitution goes wrong, and has to be replaced, putting another government based on the constitution will result in the same thing.

Eventually it will if it Diverts AWAY from the Constitution, like this one has, Again your implying that this government is being run according to the Constitution thus if something goes wrong, its the constitutions fault, The Constitution puts in place limitations of power, once a Government begins to ignor these limitations, its the right of the people to remove it, again, the constitution isn't about government its about the people.

The peoples rights are unalienable and the governments are limited and few.

but if not all agree, then the ID is pointless, meaning you are stripping people their right to the ID because it will not then serve the purpose it was created for.

Again you don't understand the concepts of freedom, We are free to do that which we want so long as we don't hurt or violate another mans unalienable rights, I'm not preventing anyone from getting an id if i choose not to have one, but forcing something upon me is violating my rights.

I find it strange that a government needs to be forced to not violate human rights?

Other governments don't need to be restricted in such a manner because they don't abuse their power to that degree.

Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

With this, it means that having a completely unalienable constitution is a bad idea in the long run in the case of certain events, such as guns being too powerful eventually. You will want them, the government doesn't want you to kill each other.

You say the government is evil because it is protecting you from your culture or Right to Bear arms.

This is proven. As was the world being round.

The founding fathers intended The people to poses every terrible implement of the "solider", thats all that matters.


[edit on 28-8-2007 by C0le]

Originally posted by Octavius Maximus


This is what ive reduced you too?

oh well, i thought you had promise.

You can live with your freedom all you wish, although you will stay where you are, unmoving.

Those of us who can see the wisdom in such things, we will move forward.

Thats your right to move in a direction you feel is forward, but its his right to do what he wants, hes not violating anyones right by this decision, stop trying force your views and your values upon him.

Too bad your nation doesn't actually embody your principles in ANY

way.

Thats why i have so many people wanting to either leave, or change the

system...because its wrong.

I'm glad you now agree our nations as a

principle that principal being the constitution, is correct.

Consider, a person who is a suicide bomber has to do the hardest

thing in the world. He knows he is right, he knows you are wrong. He will

bring you to an end, and himself with it.

In principle, it sounds inspiring, a man ready to kill himself for his

beliefs.

A "suicide bomber" is a murderer, Murder violates

Individual rights, Standing up for freedom and individual rights is

completely different, Your metaphor has no basis here.

No, i will not. I will go with the information i know. From the newspapers

(which my sister is working in) and from the evidence where i go into a

bank.

No evil, Westpac moved some of its telemarketing to India, thats the only

thing ive seen which is nasty.

Deny Ignorance.

Then you leave hundreds of criminals on the streets....go you and

your stubbornness.

Freedom isn't stubbornness. Punishing society as

a whole for the actions of a few is ignorant.

Although you ignore peoples right to privacy, and innocent until proven

guilty on this site every day, accusing people of being part of the NWO,

or being an Alien, or anything else, with only the scraps of badly

sources, badly interpreted evidence.

Umm, look at what you just

said, You are on record here for saying, that our laws and freedoms are

basically wrong because they require that someone must be PROVEN innocent,
Such claims are protected by free speech, but however we believe these

people are criminals, stay with me here, So we lock them up, You believe

they arent right? but we believe they are, so here we are with what you

may consider innocent people jailed up because we believe they are

criminals, so we are going to go by what you wanted here, We are going to

lock them up until you prove them innocent.

Innocent people in jail until proven innocent!

Yeah, but i wouldnt trust a court of law over there anyway. The law

means nothing when in a court, it seems. He with the better paid lawyer

wins, you mays well choose innocent or guilty on a coin flip.

It would really suck if you had a bad lawyer, All those people that have

to be proven innocent, would rot in jail...

Well the principles and beliefs you have had violated are drummed

into you from birth. I, as an Australian, have grown up with the only

belief being that any law is mutable. Anything which doesnt work is

replaced, and the thing which limits the government is concience, and the

word of the people.

Having a set of laws to base all of your laws around (the constitution)

doesnt make sense to me, especially when the constitution laws need to be

changed sometimes.

The laws you referring to in the Constitution are not laws in the sense

that you believe they are, The constitution protects an individuals right

to be left alone, an individuals right to life liberty and the pursuit of

happiness, when however this individual violates another individuals

rights, he will be punished accordingly.

Governments role is limited, its to ensure the individuals rights are

protected, to ensure that no one within our outside, violates this

protection to liberty.

Im just trying to understand why Americans believe the constitution

is immutable. In a search for a 'free' society it creates a sort of arms

race.

One person gets gun, so everyone else needs to get it because of self

defence AND because of your constitutional right.

Again you don't

understand the concept of freedom, What another man does is his business,

what i do is mine, until I violate his, or him mine, then we are free to

do that which we chose.

If someone commits a crime and violates an individuals rights, he will be

punished accordingly.

Against Chips?!

What the hell are you doing?!

If the government actually listens to you it means we will never evolve

our monetary and Identification system!

grrrrr. Protesting about things you cannot understand the merits for.

Again, freedom, If you want to be chipped thats your business, If we don't

that is ours, You have no right alone or by majority to force your views

or morals upon us.

No, they give up a certain freedom, one which is difficult to

enforce (how do you know your not always being watched?) for a myriad of

reasons. One of which is to prevent illegal immigration.

Give up freedom? laughable. And we don't know, but guess what if we are and

they didn't follow the LAW to do so, then they are CRIMINALS.

Then why do you keep on bitching about things like terrorists? They

will attack you because your the softest target, and they have been doing

so.

Who mentioned anything about terrorists? are you generalizing

and stereotyping again?

to me that sounds wrong, trust is given until it is lost.

Blindly giving trust to another has gotten many killed, if thats a path

you chose thats yours and yours alone, have fun with that.

Thats what happens when you get 'freedom'. it allows Anything to

happen, including the bad.

Free will, oh and lets not forget what

you just said.

Originally posted by Octavius Maximus
to me that sounds wrong, trust is given until it is lost.

your freedom says im allowed to, no matter what i say you have to

accept my viewpoint.

Incorrect, Our freedoms allow you and anyone

else to express themselves unless it violates another mans individuals

rights, so far you haven't violated our rights, and cant via this

discussion, however, This freedom doesn't say we have to accept anything,

because forcing us to accept your views would violate our rights,

yes it does, filling the thread with more bias than it already has.

Hes arguing his side, if you feel thats bias thats your problem.

Hell, i dont. I dont want to be part of cleaning up after Americas

#. Its like Iraq.

Again even more comments which illustrate you

aren't here to debate, but to disagree with American in general because of

your hatred.

The mountains of contradictions you have put forth only further this..

Well you believe that a person who is willing to die for his

beliefs is a hero, right?

And you also say that all beliefs are allowed, right?

So...the only reason you dont like the suicide bomber is because he is

against you...right?

You have to be conscious of other viewpoints.

Again as stated in a

previous quote, your comparing to completely separate things.

Well then, wheres your evidence for saying the banks are evil?

Your making the allegations, so you should provide evidence.

Learn the history of the banking cartel, and big bankers.

[edit on 28-8-2007 by C0le]

They have a right to protection, do they not?

Yes they do and you've stated we don't need it.

They look to their leader to protect them from the enemy within.

Yes

If they want protection, they must be willing to sacrifice some of

their own freedoms.

Wrong.

When the country has learned to operate without crime, then they

will gain these freedoms. Until then the liar, the thief and the murderer

must be punished.

We don't need the freedoms though remember what you

said?

my 'agenda' is the advancement of humankind into a new age of

learning, respect and enlightenment.

But because it attacks your "freedoms" in the slightest way, you will

oppose it.

That is illogical.

Incorrect because as said man can be corrupt,

Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely, We are thinking

about the future, as were our founders.

No, i wont. This thread is dead already.

A chip based system allows for hundreds of advantages.

Firstly, all monetary matters are placed into one system, making tax done

automatically, and as simple as possible

second, the elimination of physical money will reduce wasted resources

which could be used on something else.

thirdly, the chip could have an alarm, perhaps even a GPS, so if the

individual is injured or attacked, it can bring help.

etc, etc

ive already written up essays and such on the subject. The merits outweigh

the demerits by far. If a person is intelligent enough to realise that a

chip is simply 'better', then they will benefit.

If they are stubborn enough to live how they are, they can watch as the

world steams ahead into a new age, leaving them behind.

So, you see no merit?

none at all?

And all of such things are you right and your opinion,

This still doesn't change the fact I'm a free man, And no man, no majority,

and no Government can force its will upon me if I haven't violated another

mans rights.

If you want to get chipped thats your right, but its my right to not have

such things forced upon me.

In Australia im not sure if we have any piece of paper saying we

get free speech, but im sure we have it already.

So let me get this

straight you are setting here trying to tell us whats right or wrong

about our laws, when you don't even know you own?

Simply amazing.

but it was put to bad use attacking Jews, gypsies, political

prisoners, etc.

Everything Hitler did in Germany was legal.

Ah yes, because talking about anything but the U.S. is heresy. BURN

THE WITCH!

Your the one here in this thread talking about American

laws, Your welcome to leave anytime ya know, no one is stopping you....

If you believe it will, it will.

The World didn't believe it could and it did.

Awww...then the government should stop spending money on police

altogether. If you get attacked, you dont want them to intrude, do you?

Again you stating things completely contradictory to our

statements, If someone violates our individual rights, then that someone

must be punished, until then the government is to stay out of our

business.

Wrong...Freedom=chaos, that is the nature of freedom. It is

impossible to bring complete order to a system of complete chaos.

Originally posted by Octavius Maximus
to me that sounds wrong, trust is given until it is lost.

Thats why in other countries governments are different. They get

things done and they dont need to sneak around their people.

Yeah they do it in plain sight, and the people who have been conditioned

to, bend right over and take it!

No, because YOU voted for them. Your fault for choosing the wrong

person.

Really did you look at either of our election ballots?

This is why our Governments Constitutional power is limited, Because even

if the majority elected someone, that someone still does not have the power

to take away the rights of the minority or the individual.

And if that someone attempts to its the right of the people to do something

about it.

you change your opinions and arguements at a moments notice.

You've done this multiple times in this thread in attempt to argue

your baseless views.

Meanwhile our stances have remained steadfast.

I'd like to post all of my plans somewhere, but I don't find a

relevant section.

If you cant find it on ATS theres plenty of

places to look on BTS, stay there as long as you like.

He is not acting to YOUR morals or Ethics, he is going by his,

which are different.

My morals and ethics are simple, I don't care what you do to yourself or on

your property, I don't care what you say, who you vote for, or what you do,

until you do something which violates my individual rights.
Thats the foundation of a free society, Mind your own business and your

fine, violate another mans individual rights and you are a criminal.

You want to accuse? you have to do the work. You cant just tell

other people to do research for your accusations.

Ive done the work

multiple times in this thread, you ignored it and thats is fine its your

right, but don't expect it unless you put forth the same effort.

Again, no. You make allegations. you back them up with your own

evidence

refer to previous statement.

They should add them to the constitution, then you'd embrace them

wholeheartedly.

Being told that your free. Strange.

Not true because these things would force us to do the things you

mentioned, they would be unlawful, forcing views upon others, violates

individual rights.





[edit on 28-8-2007 by C0le]