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Who Here Will Accept A Real ID Card???

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posted on Aug, 12 2007 @ 05:49 PM
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If you're all worried about right to privacy, you should not be on the internet, you should not make phone calls, you should not use credit cards and you should not go to school, because everything I just mentioned is trackable today.

Seriously guys, you're worried about an National ID card that says you are a citizen of the United States? Get real. I'l take the card. They want to track me, fine, but they could already do it with my credit card.

You have every right to privacy, and that privacy is limited to your home.

Afraid of a card? It never gets old. Next you'll be afraid of your own bodies. Wonder what you will do then.




posted on Aug, 12 2007 @ 08:06 PM
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Originally posted by CSkys
I have no problem with the Real ID card.

I'm having a bit of trouble understanding the problem others have...some will ramble on and on about NWO or 'The mark of the Beast'. We have all of these forms of ID regardless, what difference does it really make if it is all housed on one card?

As for the RFID....*shrug* Don't use mobile phones or OnStar systems... it is not like the government can't locate you now if they really wanted to. Why do so many people act as though none of this technology exists until the card is implemented?

The masses NEED to be controlled. It's a fact of life. The majority of human beings can not think for themselves, let alone lead themselves. They need someone or something to tell them exactly what to do. Hence the term, SHEEPLE.

Due to the career I have chosen, past experience has shown me that those that so vehemently fight for their "Privacy" are normally people who have something to hide.

A very long time ago I was anti NWO, until I started really paying attention to human beings. Until someone can point out something really BAD about a one world government and a REAL ID card, I'll stick to my opinion.... The world needs one form of government, one form of control, and one form of individualizing members of the herd. SAD BUT TRUE.

[edit on 8/12/2007 by CSkys]

Just one answer to your question; 'Absolute power corrupts absolutely'.
Who is in control of all these chips?
...in two years?...5 years?
Our personal information is as easy to accesss as 1,2,3. Doesn't that just make the stakes higher? In that, if something were to happen to you, and someone were to succeed at access to your 'confidentials', identirty theft would be that much more damaging to your life. What with access to all your credits cards, passport, ect. they could take all you have and split real quick like, 1,2,3.
And there you would be, with nothing. You cannot hide from fear itself, it will always just find a better, different way to get back in.



posted on Aug, 12 2007 @ 08:13 PM
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Originally posted by St James
Well, for starters there will be an RFID chip in the REAL ID card. It will carry all your personal information and you will need it to enter any goverment building, open a bank account, board an airplane etc. This will allow the government to track your movements...
heck dont they do that now?
i mean for those of us with gps units and cell phones and so on...



posted on Aug, 12 2007 @ 08:23 PM
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Originally posted by MasterRegal
If you're all worried about right to privacy, you should not be on the internet, you should not make phone calls, you should not use credit cards and you should not go to school, because everything I just mentioned is trackable today.

Seriously guys, you're worried about an National ID card that says you are a citizen of the United States? Get real. I'l take the card. They want to track me, fine, but they could already do it with my credit card.

You have every right to privacy, and that privacy is limited to your home.

Afraid of a card? It never gets old. Next you'll be afraid of your own bodies. Wonder what you will do then.

Deep breaths, my friend - 'we' may be 'crazy', but you seem quite angry.

Basically, it's not really about what they can already do. Why? Because it's not quite 'real' yet. But when you 'interupt' peoples lives and make them fill out paperwork, go to the place to get the card, yada yada, the government is making it quite obvious that they do, in fact know everything about you. So again, as 'convienent as it may be, the fear factor intensifies that much stronger - Subconscious or not, it's already there.



posted on Aug, 12 2007 @ 10:09 PM
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Then that is your choice, but dont complain that society doesnt conform to your standards. You leave society because you believe we have all become "sheep". That is our choice and you should not say one is better than the other.

sheep, I think the term is over used honestly. I am not saying that people should conform to how I feel, but why should I have to conform to yours? I think you try to twist people's meanings to suit you needs of argument. I actually do know people who feel the same way. I know people who feel more severely. My deal is more with the lack of honesty and morality, I wish to get away from the 'bad' people, and technology is over-rated 'for me'. I find myself wondering what it was like to live a hundred or so years ago, when life wasn't driven by money, sex, greed, and who has the most toys ... yes, I know, it has nearly always been that way, right?



Who decides that we deserve neither?


Those in power obviously. They take your rights, then decide you are happier and 'safe' that way. Protect you from yourself, right?



I assume you mean America.

We would also be disgusted with their bathing habits, wouldnt we?

It works both ways.


Well, of course I do, we are talking about the ID card to be mandatory to the u.s.american citizens next year ... have you been paying attention? Or is this already a NWO and the u.s. citizens don't realize it yet?

Maybe you think that they didn't bath much, but how do you know? They may have been cleaner than you realize. They did have soap. There have been bath houses for centuries, hot springs too. They had bath tubs ... that is a gross assumption by you as to their habits, I doubt you were alive 200 years ago, if so, call the book of records, you win an award.



Sometimes rights should be violated, no? These rights you speak of is the constitution, i take it? This constitution was written in an age past, and its laws should not be considered written in stone.

If you think old laws are better, i could of course bring some Roman laws. I could run for Tribune of the Plebs in the next election. Meaning i can create my own legislation and avoid the democratic process completly, i can also veto any law i wish.

Man, that would kick ass.


NO, human rights should NEVER be violated. Would you like me to violate you on a whim? Probably not. We are also still talking about u.s.a. laws, last I checked, I don't live in Europe. We are a democratic republic. Laws that violate liberty of those who are not harming another ... that is an unjust law. Want me to make a law that it is illegal to drink soda on sundays? That is a simplified example of the concept.



You only find sinister things when you look for sinister things.


You can think that. I am actually an optimist. I just see the truth through the smoke and mirrors. The people shall prevail, they ALWAYS do in the long run.



Im Australian, i havnt been "trained" and yet i see the chessboard as a whole, with 2 sides. The pieces all seeing in black and white, while they all spout ideas in grey.

perhaps you have trained yourself to delve into the invisible. You have done so you see ghosts where there are none.


So you are out of reach of the corporative media and disinfo. I see now, Australia is the true land of truth. Why are you arguing against what u.s.americans want if this doesn't affect you in the first place? I do see it in black and white, it is just some just can't see what is in front of their nose, and that is why it seems like invisible ghosts to them.



You mean mob rule?

Well the processes are there, to get your opinion heard you must have your idea for a law to be drafted by your local representative, is it not?

have you done so?


nope, I am against mob rule/anarchy/etc. I have written to my senators and congressmen. I have written my newspaper. I vote in polls and make my opinion and voice heard in many arenas ... are you satisfied now? Am I now worthy of having an opinion in your eyes?



I can admit your idea on 'election' is skewed. Rarely is the person you elect your ideal in all ideas and forms, he or she is merely the 'best fit'.


Agreed and agreed. Sometimes it seems we don't have a choice, sometimes who we choose doesn't get the office.



Then you may live as you wish. With none of the benefits or downfalls of the chip, or the card. If society moves on you shouldnt be unhappy if you are forgotten, it was your choice to do so.


Fine by me. I already said I am going back to basics, and my life is better already. I am not forgotten, I just live without unnecessary 'spoils' that don't make 'me' happy, friends and family do.



I am standing up for my beliefs.


I applaud that.



An UNCLEAR possibility. With possible negative effects, the effects of which have been attributed to a mythical secret society which may exist, which may want to do 'evil' things, etc etc.


This doesn't have to do with secret societies per se, but corruption in power ... and the ID chip to me. NWO doesn't have to be defined so finely in my eyes. Doesn't have to be illuminati. It can just represent powerful leaders out of control that may or may not be bought and paid for. Hitler would have established a NWO, daddy Bush talked about NWO publicly, of course, he isn't going to be negative about it.



Here is my quibble. I believe that no document should give a person those liberties and ideas, they should be indelible.

I may sound harsh, if i do that is just my way. I am here to eradicate fear ...


I guess that is why you are Australian. I have no quarrels with any country and their choices. I know my rights and freedoms established and taught to me in school as a child. Should I just say, oh well, why should I make my own decisions, a few corrupt people decided to change the laws and make my decisions for me. Though my whole life I was taught different.

I am NOT AFRAID, neither to stand up for myself, nor to die for what I believe in. I wish no harm to anyone, even those corrupt. They should be dealt with in the proper way. I will protect my loved ones and myself against tyranny though. Standing up for yourself isn't fear, it is honor. Read up on our founding history more and find out what we truly stand for.

Take care.



posted on Aug, 12 2007 @ 10:34 PM
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I will restate,

no on-star/navigation. no cell-phone. no credit card. no cable/satellite any more. starting to grow my own food. learning to deal with less a/c and heat.

I am becoming self-sufficient and adaptable to my environment. The thing is, it isn't as bad as I thought it was 10 years ago when I had to have my sports cars and muscle cars, I consumed fast food, I had two cell phones, 150 channels of t.v., several video game consoles, and spent money like water. It seemed, those things made me temporarily satisfied ... now, I am happy all the time.

It is all about your perspective on life. I value my freedom of choice. I can work where and when I want. I can spend where I choose. I can go where I please. I am not saying these will be gone next year ... but what about 10 or 20 years?

I have watched tyranny close in bit by bit in several places. Most don't notice it because they are not paying attention, or don't care. I understand. But my eyes have always been open, I have always paid attention to the little things around me. I like to watch situations and people. From that perspective, you see the big picture. You see when the lines are painted and people are herded into small groups (and that is something I saw in real life, not some metaphor).

Again, I am not afraid. I am not afraid to be on the internet. I just won't be controlled. A lot of you mistake fear with strength of character and willingness to stand up for themselves. You don't have to be afraid of someone to fight back, in fact, it is just the opposite, those that are afraid, accept whatever is pushed on them ... for the FEAR of fighting back makes them accept whatever ... and it can play on the mind after a while to where the fear has eliminated the ability to see the danger ... it automatically goes with what is presented to them.


I agree with nowayreally ... those opposed seemed to be getting quite 'hot under the collar' against those who oppose the ID and the chip.

Let me tell you, it is not just a few crazy people on the internet. I have spoken to a lot of people. The vast majority of them oppose it. Will they change their minds when it comes time? Who knows. Since the government is going to try and close line us, but making it a requirement for so much. Most people will succumb to it as a 'necessary' evil. What I believe in, that would be a fulfilled prophecy.

Even without what I believe in ... anything forced on the majority of the people in a country where the majority are the ones who have the say, something is really messed up. There is no argument for that. We the people are the lawmakers, the decision makers, and the judge and jury of this country and the people we hire ... Those that we hired are circumventing the laws and rights of the people, and forcing the desires of those few on the many.

That is the real issue behind it all.



posted on Aug, 12 2007 @ 10:56 PM
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I am concerned about having one large database controlled by our government. It might be much easier to hack into one database and steal anyone's sensitive information than many. The individual would have to rely on our government for security as well which I don't like the thought of. As much as these concerns seem to be talked about on here, what I read about and heard about on the local news here in South Carolina is something different. I'll explain why I heard so many are opposed.

The main opposition I heard was the federal government bringing back long lines to the DMV and a high cost to obtain a replacement card for your drivers license. I remember when it used to take all day to renew a drivers license. Waiting lines in multiple rooms and waiting lists to get to the next room. I heard this national ID card would bring all that back. It would also increase the cost of a replacement card by $50 or more dollars than what we might currently pay. Plus it requires bringing in Birth certificates for instance. Our state doesn't have the time or resources available to check and verify out of state birth certificates. How in the world is this supposed to increase our security? Anyone could copy somebody's out of state certificate , modify it slightly if needed and then get the national ID card with a few other things. Do our elected officials think terrorists are stupid? Apparently so and someone wants to have all our information for legal law abiding people in one database. I can't see how in the world this card is supposed to help us.


[edit on 12-8-2007 by orionthehunter]



posted on Aug, 12 2007 @ 10:58 PM
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You live in a different country, and although my own personal experience, age, environment,ect., may biased my take on the latter of American, you still don't have to see this society all around you. (or at least I'm assuming, since I know some Australians, and you all Rock!)


Thanks


But really, i think alot of the 'fear' you feel is endemic in the society you grew up in. America is a society ruled by fear, in my opinion. The all encompassing relief to your fears is your constitution, which has been almost deified.

When something threatens your constitution then it is heresy of the highest order. I find from an observers point of view that the constitution is flawed and in many cases should be changed. Something an American would not want because of the status of the constitution.

Your society claims to be highly innovative, but in more ways it stays completly stationary due to its reliance on your constitution. Consider this:

1) America claims to be highly innovative but is actually quite conservative in the action of laws.
2) America has a history of religious fundamentalism.
3) American citizens have a habit of grouping together against a supposed evil, while allowing many attrocities going unnoticed. (ie. Prohibition)

The same is here.

1) The Innovation of the real ID or the chip is highly beneficial but is opposed on the grounds that it is unconstitutional.
2) The Chip is named the 'Mark of the beast'
3) Wholesale opposition against the future of a chipped humanity while the US still languishes at the top of the global pollution scale.



I'm sorry I'm definitley venting. But, it's hard to say anymore what I actaully even believe, cause Im scared its not even my own ideas or thoughts.
This is why.


If you are frightened of your own government, of your own society. Go to a university and transfer to Australia! its great down here!

But there is no need to be frightened of thoughts.



again, i'll get one & even try to get several,
?why?


Im sure if you lived in WW2 people would love being your neighbor as you hoarde rations and sell it to them.



Neither is particularly pleasing. I would fight the chip in any way I could. My body is mine and no-one is poking around in it without my permission.


And who said you wouldnt have permission?



ID cards, too, I would fight against. I enjoy walking down the street uninterrupted and free. Having a card that could be tracked and showed to the police whenever they wanted isn't my idea of being free.


What would the difference be?



My dog is already chipped, my brothers Falcon is already chipped, my licence plate my drivers licence, credit card and debit card. Hey did I in anyway except the sign of the devil? I don't 'feel' any different...


All 3 of my cats are chipped, i prefer that i dont lose them (But they are all smart enough to play without getting hurt)



I'm having a bit of trouble understanding the problem others have...some will ramble on and on about NWO or 'The mark of the Beast'. We have all of these forms of ID regardless, what difference does it really make if it is all housed on one card?


Thank you, your the same as i, lad.



Due to the career I have chosen, past experience has shown me that those that so vehemently fight for their "Privacy" are normally people who have something to hide.

Exceptionally true.



Never, I will fight and run until the end


Ok then, bubai.



Just one answer to your question; 'Absolute power corrupts absolutely'.


Once i am put in charge as Emperor of Earth then i will prove that not all leaders can be corrupted.


I actually do know people who feel the same way. I know people who feel more severely.


Then you are free to move with them, but again. You should not complain that you cannot gain from society if you dont accept its percieved downfalls.



Those in power obviously. They take your rights, then decide you are happier and 'safe' that way. Protect you from yourself, right?


But when things like smoking still exist, and pollution factories, you know that your rights to these things should be limited, not because of yourself, but the people around you.




Maybe you think that they didn't bath much, but how do you know? They may have been cleaner than you realize. They did have soap. There have been bath houses for centuries, hot springs too. They had bath tubs ... that is a gross assumption by you as to their habits, I doubt you were alive 200 years ago, if so, call the book of records, you win an award.


I am a Historian, i do my research on these things. Thank you.



NO, human rights should NEVER be violated. Would you like me to violate you on a whim?


And i have my right to protect myself. i know my limits and i have pushed them for awhile. Anyone around who sees unfairness should fight it.

i will continue my rhetoric later. i must leave now to fight superheros.



posted on Aug, 13 2007 @ 12:11 AM
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free thinker
I take it most people haven't read the works from WWII ... pick up some Ayn Rand, some George Orwell. There are a lot of great books that show what oppression is like, and how the majority don't see or question it. We are being slowly coerced into the desire to be controlled. Hitler was good at this, but we have a whole gang of them playing us for fools, and protecting each other by lies and pardons![/qoute]

Nice Ayn Rand reference. I have been feeling this 'Atals Shrugged' theme in all of my aspects of life- I'ts insane.

But, seriously, 'Atlas Shrugged' is a long book, but entirely worth it. Still now, after years since reading it, I notice is't themes, philosophy and psychology, in an almost, fighteningly scary intensity and frfequency all around me....



posted on Aug, 13 2007 @ 12:55 AM
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Ayn Rand is great




Smoking. It is a person's choice, just like drinking.

A smoking factory, now that is something different. It is a shame, that big business needs us to say 'hey, can we have some clean air and water, please?' When it should be the morals and ethics that make up the people that run the business to put quality of life above profits. Again, money doesn't equal happiness, despite what my country seems to push on its (and the world's) society.

To the poster who said that they have found those who want privacy usually have something to hide ...

well, I want to hide my nudity, that is for me and a future love
It is my right as a citizen, who has never been arrested, though searched several times without cause (I allowed them, remember, I had nothing to hide). I could have made a stink about it, and made them get a warrant. The problem with that, I would rather not have run into a severely corrupt officer who would plant stuff, so to protect my freedom, I had to bend a little so I could stick my tongue out at them after they were done. Nothing like proving a officer who profiles to not always judge someone by the outward appearances. If I only had someone with me, I just may have made them get a warrant. The funny thing is, at the time, I had many friend's that were officers. In fact, two times I was being harassed by one, their superior came and said to leave me alone, then we started to b.s. for a while.

Honestly, you all may not believe how personally conservative I am, for MY LIFE. I am socially liberal, because, I believe in everyone's liberty to choose their views and actions ... as long as they cause not physical harm or serious mental abuse to another living being. Want to know how conservative I am? I don't have any desire to have sex until I am married ... that alone makes me more more conservative than most of the world. I don't push my views on the world. I didn't tell the sitcoms to alter their programming. Why? Because I have the freedom to change the channel and make that choice. I live my life by my values, which are seemingly set much higher than most of society. That doesn't make me any better of a person though. I am just different. Some people think I am boring because of it. I don't like to drink, I don't go to clubs or parties. To me, they are boring. I would rather be intellectually stimulated and in a debate ... or relaxing with some close, true friends with some music. I am not some hoodlum, mis-guided punk you have to watch out for on the street. I am the one holding the door open for people, saying please, thank you, excuse me. Leaving nice tips to the driver/wait staff, helping people I don't know even at my own emotional, time, and monetary expense ... without complaint. I do for others regardless if they do for me. Just wanted to set the record straight, so you don't have any misconceptions of me.

My point is, just because I want privacy, doesn't make me a criminal, and usually, I associate with the law on very friendly terms. Just because I have been harassed by some, doesn't make them all bad, but I am wary of what is POSSIBLE. I watched enough cops on tv to where I put my hands on the side of my vehicle when they pull me over ... I don't want a stray bullet for being ... embarrassed, would say nervous, but that implies guilt in this society ... embarrassed because people assume you are a criminal when pulled over, even if you are innocent. Which brings me to the next problem. Slowly, we are being led to guilt until proven innocent. Look at those college students who were ripped on by the media, kicked out of school, then come to find out, they were INNOCENT! No apology, what did they do, made a spectacle out of the girl. Drama sells today, not dignity.

What I think a lot of people are trying to say, is, it doesn't matter the benefits, we have the right, as law abiding citizens, to not have our freedoms trampled on ... in even the most remote way. We will not give an inch, because they take a mile.

What you are saying is, we don't have a choice. What we are saying is, you have a choice to do that, let us choose not to. It really is that simple.

Our constitution is not perfect. But the amendment process is not suppose to be corrupted as it has become. Lobbyists are making laws, not the PEOPLE. This is the problem. The people want change. They want to clean the environment, live in peace, and quit wasting money on projects where billions of dollars go up missing, wasting millions on earmarks. We have had enough.

If you want to twist and simplify the big problems to fit you agenda, fine.

I will tell you this, I know military personnel, police officers, sheriffs, EMTs, fire fighters, business men, people of all classes and colors locally that feel the same as me. People opposed to this on a moral level represent most of the people in the country. To say that this card will benefit us the same as an energy bill to reduce pollution and consumption is dishonest to say the least ... especially for someone who doesn't live here and this will have absolutely no effect on their life at all.

If you want the card and chip, by all means, sign up for it. Come on over, we welcome visitors and immigrants. I have no problem with you making your choices for yourself; just don't make mine for me.

I have tried to show examples, and you take me out of context. Anyone can pick apart someone's words ... but if you take the message as a whole and what the people opposed to it are implying ... or not even implying, what they desire ... then you have no argument. For if you deny our freedom to refuse this, then why should we not deny your freedoms to have it? It is the same difference. Whether you wish to force something upon us, or we wish to force something upon you ... it is not right either way. This is the point you cannot seem to comprehend, and I apologize that it doesn't get through to you. I wish it could.

There is no more point of making examples to someone who will not listen to what you have to say. We say, I don't want to take vitamins, they make me feel sick and I get my supplements through a varied diet of healthy foods ... you say, so, I am wiring your mouth open and you are eating it anyway. What you want means nothing to me, I made the decision, and what I say goes, TRUST me, I know what is best for everyone else in the world. I am the decider.



posted on Aug, 13 2007 @ 08:21 AM
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i will continue my rhetoric later. i must leave now to fight superheros.


Thatll teach those dogooders *dusts of hands* and now, back to the speech.


Laws that violate liberty of those who are not harming another ... that is an unjust law.


So creating a law making it mandatory to accept a real ID card. Who is being harmed?

Dont call privacy laws on me, because i will say it straight. You are not important enough to be monitored unless you are breaking the law. (this is IF these cards can be used for serveillence, which i doubt they can.



So you are out of reach of the corporative media and disinfo. I see now, Australia is the true land of truth. Why are you arguing against what u.s.americans want if this doesn't affect you in the first place?


Because im not selfish? i want the world to be a better place, if you check out my myspace (lordpontius) then you will note a few of my little debates about when i take over the world. There is alot more i have written down about my own social structures, theories and ideas on humanity.

If anyone tells me where i can post all this i would be glad too
My rule will have no secrets.



nope, I am against mob rule/anarchy/etc. I have written to my senators and congressmen. I have written my newspaper.


I dont trust writing, or emails. you can never speak your mind correctly. I have been told that i am a good Orator in person, a talent i enjoy to use. You should go to your representative and speak plainly. Tell them your ideas, your theories, your fears and desires.

Dont demand, dont push. Just remind them who they owe their loyalty too.


Am I now worthy of having an opinion in your eyes?


Everyone has an opinion, on such a forum i have no choice but to read them all. Some people i dont enjoy reading, some i do because they can prove to me that they speak from the heart and mind. You are one such person and i do enjoy reading your posts.




Agreed and agreed. Sometimes it seems we don't have a choice, sometimes who we choose doesn't get the office.


This has a few faults. In my perception it lies in:

1. Human ideal, the person you follow, the pros are magnified while the cons are ignored or downplayed.
2. The American system of non compulsary voting.

It may be unconstitutional, but if a person wants to complain about the government i think they should be able to say they put on their vote (im quite sure you do vote, though, from the sound of it)




Fine by me. I already said I am going back to basics, and my life is better already. I am not forgotten, I just live without unnecessary 'spoils' that don't make 'me' happy, friends and family do.


I am not talking about the present, as usual my mind is in the clouds. Lying in the past or the future. If humanity makes a massive leap forward, would you stand to be left behind? Would you begrudge them?



This doesn't have to do with secret societies per se, but corruption in power ... and the ID chip to me.


So you say that the ID chip isnt the fault, its the person controlling it?

So all those who are against the chip, would they get one if they trusted their government?


I know my rights and freedoms established and taught to me in school as a child.


We dont exactly get told them, over here. They are learnt over time by seeing how the adults treat each other. We arnt lectured on right and wrong (apart from the law, of course) but i have never looked at the Australian constitution. Nor heard any clauses from it.

Ive never needed too. im not actually sure if we have a freedom of speech clause. i just know we have freedom of speech. Maybe not because of law, but because of respect.



I am NOT AFRAID, neither to stand up for myself, nor to die for what I believe in. I wish no harm to anyone, even those corrupt.


Then you and i are much different. So im sure our views will conflict.

I am not sure if i would die for what i believe in, if only because ive never considered a possibility of having to fight for my beliefs beyond a discussion or arguement (hopefully the former)


Read up on our founding history more and find out what we truly stand for.


If i find the time and an unbiased account i shall.

Although, you may find that what you stood for then, and what you stand for now are completly different things as attitudes and perceptions have changed.



I have watched tyranny close in bit by bit in several places. Most don't notice it because they are not paying attention, or don't care.


or are like me, who still wonder whether tyranny (or Monarchy) is a bad thing, with the right leader.


Since the government is going to try and close line us


Proof?


It might be much easier to hack into one database and steal anyone's sensitive information than many.


but in turn it will be easier to defend said database from infiltration.


The individual would have to rely on our government for security as well which I don't like the thought of.


Thats what the government was created to do. To lead people who group together for mutual security.


Do our elected officials think terrorists are stupid?


Thats the opinion of many. Underestimating your foe is the easiest road to defeat.




Smoking. It is a person's choice, just like drinking.


Drinking harms the drinker, smoking harms those around them. That is the difference.


I am not some hoodlum, mis-guided punk you have to watch out for on the street. I am the one holding the door open for people, saying please, thank you, excuse me. Leaving nice tips to the driver/wait staff, helping people I don't know even at my own emotional, time, and monetary expense ...


I tip my cap to you sir, we are a dying breed. I am working on the young kids around, teaching them how to behave and be a gentleman, but its slow going.



What I think a lot of people are trying to say, is, it doesn't matter the benefits, we have the right, as law abiding citizens, to not have our freedoms trampled on


Those freedoms to privacy are also being exploited by those who do break the law. The question is where do you draw the line?


in even the most remote way. We will not give an inch, because they take a mile.


Not always, you just assume they will because they can.



posted on Aug, 13 2007 @ 08:32 AM
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Stupid fricking character limit! i hate it so much!



I have tried to show examples, and you take me out of context.


i quote small passages of paragraphs so you know what im talking about, i dont post entire paragraphs if i can help it because of the above mentioned annoyance at the character limit.


For if you deny our freedom to refuse this, then why should we not deny your freedoms to have it?


because i am saying you should give it a chance before microwaving your cards. Because alot of the "evidence" i see is completly unfounded and many beliefs are based on theories with no evidence to support the claims.

All i am saying is, if this card was an ATM card, and my dream of removing physical money completly came true. A person who refuses the card or chip should not complain when a thief steals their hard earned money because they refused the option which would help them.


This is the point you cannot seem to comprehend, and I apologize that it doesn't get through to you. I wish it could.


i comprehend your point, barely. but i dont understand alot of the reasoning because it is unfounded attacking against something which could be such a huge benefit to mankind as a whole, but you resist because of percieved control.



There is no more point of making examples to someone who will not listen to what you have to say.


i do listen to what you have to say, what i keep repeating is that if you can give me hard evidence proving these cards to be used for serveillence and other 'evil' operations, then i would believe you. until then your arguement carries no weight.


We say, I don't want to take vitamins, they make me feel sick and I get my supplements through a varied diet of healthy foods ... you say, so, I am wiring your mouth open and you are eating it anyway.


You say i take you out of context?

i dont take vitamins, i see no point. You dont take vitamins? congrats. i wont force you, but you shouldnt complain about the vitamins which you dont take. thats your choice not to take them. I wont force anyone to do anything, but if they refuse the cons then they refuse the pros, simple as that.


What you want means nothing to me, I made the decision, and what I say goes, TRUST me, I know what is best for everyone else in the world. I am the decider.


If i truly was the decider of your decisions you know what i would say?

Go to school, go to high school, go to university. Do what you enjoy and be the best you can, for both yourself and your community. Noone can ask less of you.

How can you disagree? Will you tell me that you dont want to be the best you could be? if you do then i am afraid i dont understand your mind.



posted on Aug, 14 2007 @ 08:53 AM
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hehe, now, I know this will sound quite contradictory, but I am in the mood to show some of my dual nature.

If there came a time that I gave up on people, and truly believed they all wanted to be controlled ... I would use my silver tongue to rise to the top of the ladder to lead them. I could claim a bit of arrogance with that statement, because I am beginning to buy into the fact that anyone I have associated with tell me that I am too smart for conversation, and am a natural leader (though I have no desire to lead and I never try to show off any smarts). I wouldn't done the mini-mustache, but I could be a great orator as well, when I have a purpose behind it and exhibit control of those passions at the same time. You can take your half (Europe, Asia, Australia) and I can take mine (Americas). I say that half-joking.

Trust me, I can see fully where you are coming from. I know it seems like a silly little card that everyone is getting huffy and puffy about.

What is really is about is principle. We have given up a lot over the last 6 years in the name of 'safety' and convenience. The thing is, people feel less safe, and things still aren't very easy in the mind of the public.

Why continue to adopt new problems, when all of the other solutions haven't worked. What would make life easier? Downsizing our government. Elimination redundancy, over-spending, the many intelligence agencies we know about and the ones we don't, making a department of peace instead of a war czar ... there is a lot of fat going on in our government. I really don't see how it is stable at all. We are missing billions of dollars a year in programs ... money never goes where is should.

Now, why would we want to trust them with something that holds all our information? It seems they need to clean up their act before we allow ANYTHING else to happen.

It would be like a gambler asking for a large loan. Occasionally they win, but, they could blow it and you are up a creek, no paddles.

In fact, we are unlawfully taxed, the people turn the other cheek. Well, we have already been slapped on all four cheeks ... it really is a mess over here. The only thing about the public is, after being slapped so much, they have begun to like it. A bunch of masochists ... and our government are a bunch of professional sadists/dominatrix. They are trying to whip us into complete submission. One thing they forget, the submissive is actually the one with all the control.

I am just having too much fun with the analogies.

This is where my turmoil comes in. I am a true idealist ... a wonderful example of how I would want society is like Star Trek: TNG. I don't state how I perceive a perfect world much, because it mirrors a NWO ... no countries, no boundaries, not discrimination, no money ... everyone works for the greater good. People enjoy even crappy jobs ... because the business isn't profit oriented. There is more than enough staff to handle it with stride. Things are still invented because we don't wish to stagnate. The best of the new inventions are produced for everyone to have. You could go home from flipping hamburgers and be happy, because you have a home with utilities, you can go to the doctor, dentist, you have all the toys, because, as a citizen of a world that works together, we are each entitled to at least one of everything, have the food you want or go out and eat, everything works together in one big, happy, free system. You see more meaning in my name? I am more of a dreamer than I let on. If I had to take over the world to save it, this is how I would do it. BUT, what is different than what you imply, you choose everything. You have privacy. No one has the right to know what you don't want them to know. You allow people to enjoy being alive. With world population where it is, and developing the system correctly, people would have much more time off every week, free to travel on vacations when that time comes up ... and enjoy it, since, you drive, and fill up with whatever fuel there is, stay at hotels that are always well staffed and clean. A true utopia. People learn and contribute to society naturally, it is built into the system ... but there is still a lot of freedom of choice involved with it all.

Hope you like it. I am sure I would be shot before I could implement such a beautiful world. People who think like that don't last long in the world.



Back to the real world. I appreciate you caring about our nation and the world. Let me try to figure a way to put it ... what if, your country decided to, let's say, make every person in Australia own at least one fish. You oppose it, you have a fish phobia (see, people are afraid of our government and control, the ID card, or mark of the beast type fear). Someone from good ol' u.s.a. starts debating. I can play that role, I have and enjoy fish. I say, making all people own fish, starting at a very young age does several very good things for people and their character. It teaches you to value life and have a higher respect for other species. Example, bettas and cichlids are very responsive to their owners, like cats, dogs, ferrets, etc. most animals really, they even show emotional traits - fear, sadness, joy, etc. Another benefit is teaching cleanliness. You must change the water once or twice a week, since the fish live in their own toilet, so to speak. You have to clean out the filters, scrape the glass, clean the gravel, etc. It also teaches you maintenance and cost of ownership that can later be used in life. You learn that things break and need replacing. You have to be very dedicated. You need to check the temperature of the water as well as the pH, and the parts per million of toxins such as ammonia, nitrites, nitrates ... and learn about hardness GH and KH. You have to pay for supplies, electricity, water. It teaches you responsibility with food. You have to feed them healthy, the right foods, the right amounts. To shorten it (character limit), it teaches you responsibility, character, how to take care of yourself and a future child ... at least as a good step of the understanding and amount of work it requires.

Don't you feel making people have a pet and care for it properly is much more of a needed thing than an ID card? More responsible people do better in life. An ID is a tracking device, no human benefit other than swiping it at a store



posted on Aug, 14 2007 @ 09:00 AM
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Now, I know that was an extreme example, but I thought it was suitable, and amusing.

I enjoy debating as long as tempers or racism doesn't flare up. I don't have people that are willing to debate face to face because 'you know too much about too many things' for them to feel comfortable OR 'as soon as I agree with you, you argue the other side'. I have done that many times, since I thoroughly enjoy exercising the brain.

I hadn't gotten much sleep, so hope I made sense, I am going now, hopefully next time I will be better rested to give a more involved response.

I still will never take an ID or a chip. If they chip me, I will cut it out. I am religious, and even though it may not be, it is far too similar to the prophecy in the Bible for me to overlook. Others have their doubts in government, I do too, so I echo that position as well.

I will say, your rule, sounds way too familiar of past world war era books. Not that you would have bad intentions ... it is just privacy is a core issue for people. It is a need. You take it away, there will be a revolt. Even if it took a few generations. People need their space. Ever been in a relationship with a non-clingy person? Or, if you are non-clingy, ever been in a relationship with a clingy person? A clingy person usually shares EVERYTHING, and has a hard time understanding the other person who just wants some personal space and keeps things to themselves.

I don't know, time to sleep for a bit and get some things done.



posted on Aug, 14 2007 @ 09:18 AM
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I already have one kinda.. On the back of my ID is a barcode, which holds all my info..

And yes, I would have to if I dont want to be homeless!!!

These people make these laws and say this.. If you dont get a card your a vagrant! And Vagrants cant buy gas, cant buy a house, no cars, no insurance, no this and no that!!
Your will be forced into getting a card if you want to live like you are..

You have the choice not to get one, but you wont be able to get credit, you wont be able to rent a movie, you sertinly wont be able to the things you need to do to get by..
Is it really a choice at all???
Kinda like that God choice.. YOu can belive in god, or just go to hell...



posted on Aug, 14 2007 @ 09:41 AM
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when I have a purpose behind it and exhibit control of those passions at the same time. You can take your half (Europe, Asia, Australia) and I can take mine (Americas). I say that half-joking.


The problem with that is at the end of it all, we will have to face off against each other. We cant have factions arising, it creates disquiet.

I am like you, it seems. I think that if i had the chance to rule the world i would do it justly, and with the best interests of humanity at heart.



Why continue to adopt new problems, when all of the other solutions haven't worked. What would make life easier?


New solutions often create new problems. Medicine creates new strands of sickness. The problem with todays society is that everything is created for too short a term. Energy sources and so on, all non renewable. You need to create a way to stop colds completly, not just perscribe cold tablets.



It would be like a gambler asking for a large loan.


When you say this i am reminded of America in the 1920's. Where people took out huge loans and then put it all on the stockmarket. Letting the profits pay the interest and then some.

a big contributer to the crash of 1929 right there.


The only thing about the public is, after being slapped so much, they have begun to like it.


No, they dont like it, as is evidence of why you are here. But you have accepted it. it is lines like "Life is unfair" which annoy me because life is only unfair if you accept it to be as an inevitability.


don't state how I perceive a perfect world much, because it mirrors a NWO ... no countries, no boundaries, not discrimination, no money ... everyone works for the greater good. People enjoy even crappy jobs ... because the business isn't profit oriented.


Ahhh, a shared dream, it seems.

Except for one detail. I find humanity has a problem with pride. it sees pride as a bad thing. I find that i am sick to my stomach seeing humans work in fast food stores. seriously, what are they but glorified vending machines?

Maistos Romani Re Publica.

The Majesty of the Roman Republic.

That is something i think humankind has forgotten.


Things are still invented because we don't wish to stagnate. The best of the new inventions are produced for everyone to have.


Again, another dream of mine. Constant innovation.


because, as a citizen of a world that works together, we are each entitled to at least one of everything, have the food you want or go out and eat, everything works together in one big, happy, free system.


I think i have a rival, it seems. or a partner in crime. Im not sure which yet *smirk*


You see more meaning in my name? I am more of a dreamer than I let on. If I had to take over the world to save it, this is how I would do it.


I have often wondered why a Free thinker would close his mind to such ideas such as the card or chip.



Hope you like it. I am sure I would be shot before I could implement such a beautiful world. People who think like that don't last long in the world.


No, dont think like that. We will get our chance one day, brother.



fish


I dont think my 3 cats would be amused


but i agree with your reasoning, but not your conclusions. Mostly because of the beginning, you say it is a good idea so you say it is mandatory. The thing is though that you dont need to do that. You tell everyone "Owning a pet is a great way to teach you- etc etc" Tell them the benefits. Then, you give them an incentive, saying like 'if you own a pet the government will subsidise the cost of its upkeep.'



Don't you feel making people have a pet and care for it properly is much more of a needed thing than an ID card?


i feel that there is no need to be close minded. just do both.


it is just privacy is a core issue for people. It is a need.


i have often wondered this. Privacy isnt such a huge issue, it is the allusion to privacy that people want.

You can cover your house with bars and unbreakable glass, still means your going to go out to work every day of the week, then out with friends on the weekend.

With the chips i control, i take away nothing. I give you the truth, everything i have access too, you do aswell.



I don't know, time to sleep for a bit and get some things done.


Yet another thing for me to agree with. Im not sure if i will have to accept you on my rise to power, or defeat you. But having a rival is never a bad thing.

I will be keeping my eye out for you



posted on Aug, 16 2007 @ 04:45 PM
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haha, I will be the VP, but, I still won't accept the card.

I am not close minded, I have made a choice. That is a big difference. I chose not to accept the card. I have even gone as far as to deny my social security card to a job before to make a point that it has violated my rights.

It all comes down to perspective, and possibly some past influences. I will fight a tyranny. Choice should always be available. The 'chip' in Futurama wasn't a new idea, it is actually from an old story, where it was decided where you would work, and that was it. No matter how bold your ideas or dreams were, you could never be a scholar, you would have to sweep streets if that was decided.

What this means to me is, people like Einstein and Newton would have been stifled by the system. Forced to dig ditches or polish windows; something that would fully limit their potential. But it is our choices that make us unique and gives us the chance to break free of the limitations put on humanity. Those two men thought outside the box which many have trouble doing. I also would never want to see another genius like Tesla be snuffed out because his ideas were too grand and progressive for those with power to accept. It is a disappointing shame that such travesty happened to his marvelous inventions. I find that to be a great example of the right to privacy and a strong reason to be wary of a government gone corrupt by people with money and power.

For now, most of us here in the u.s.a. realize there is too much corruption in our government right now to consider giving them a system to control us ... which it will as that previous poster stated. It will control our ability to operate in society. I don't use banks, but, I have a feeling this system will all but do away with physical money. It is easier, and my choice, to use money. Computers have glitches, but, there is no glitch when I spend the paper and metal. I have had problems with one of the top banks, and I will not say their name ... but they are the reason I will never use a bank again ... even if I must learn to live on grass. Once bitten, twice shy. I would be a fool to put my money into the hands of those who have misplaced and miscalculated before. I will take that responsibility myself.

I should not need a special card to get a job. If I work, I get compensation. Simple as it can be. No need for complicated paperwork, etc. Do away with income tax, we are taxed when we buy ... that should be enough. I hate being robbed coming and going, then on a yearly basis as well. How many other hands need to be on the money I worked hard to earn?

I should not need a card to go into a library, to read books. Not to go into the grocery store, for nourishment. My life shouldn't depend on a fallible computer system, nor a piece of plastic. I would rather go back to a barter system.

hehe, I am a bit off
If I could, I would go back to feudal Japan ... and be a honorable samurai. Live by the sword and protect those who I care for. Farm and live humbly. I guess that thought is too old-fashioned for most people today. I think guns are for weak people. If you can't fight with a fist or a melee weapon, then step down. It is easier to face an enemy from a distance than to stand and look them in the eye and give it all you got. There is a lost dignity in fighting fair. This is why we have whack-jobs sitting in a a/c bunker pressing buttons and giving orders to drop bombs and send in other people's children into harm's way. It is absolutely disgusting. It is this same type of disgusting people who want to put video cameras on every street and in your homes, to watch you. They find ways to listen to you through your cell-phones when they are off. Invasion of privacy? We hardly have any left!

I am sorry you don't understand why privacy is so important. I wish you could. This point is much more of an issue to me than a stupid card. I don't want a 'demolition man' future. We are headed for that or worse. Even a 'fifth element' future is only a little better. I want to feel free to walk down the street and pick a wedgie if I so have one, without some bozo watching me and giving me a ticket for indecently touching myself in public
What I really want you to think about is this ... if you had a daughter, would you want some pervert monitoring the cameras zooming in on her 'special' areas? Oh, it may be against the rules, but then, now where does the monitoring stop? Monitors watching monitors? How far back does it go?

If we truly had equal opportunity to every individual. If we had no money to drool over ... except for a few mentally ill people, crime would be virtually non-existent, hence, no need for over bearing security measures.

Why should I not be trusted? I have done no wrong. Why put a camera on my street? I didn't feel unsafe, and I don't feel safer with it, I feel less safe, honestly. Why, if I am an innocent person, does my every detail need to be recorded? Shouldn't I be able to say naughty things in a loved ones ear without a microphone recording, without a video recording?

You see the card as a simplistic piece of plastic to make life super easy for everyone of the world. Aye, it may be for some.

I see the card as another useless piece of plastic made to make life more complicated. If you lose it, you can't buy anything until you get another. Your money system is on the card, so you can't buy another card. If someone finds your card and uses it, they can wipe you out ... which brings in the era of the RFID chip. Now, you are forced to put a foreign object in your body. This object is now what you use for everything. Oh no! You shocked yourself fixing your car, now you need a replacement chip. You can't eat, all your proof of existence is on the chip (future children). How do you prove who you are? Surgery to get the old chip out for a serial number to access the database ... that is of course we also have tattoo serial numbers to make that easier. Oh no! Hurricane knocks power out to the area. There is no cash, so purchasing supplies is impossible. A week passes by, still no power, all your reserve food and water are gone. The stores could sell canned goods and bottled water, but they have no way of making transactions, physical money being abolished for the chips. Future looks grim once it has become 'normal'.

I will keep the easy way please. No card, no chip.



posted on Aug, 16 2007 @ 07:09 PM
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What this means to me is, people like Einstein and Newton would have been stifled by the system. Forced to dig ditches or polish windows; something that would fully limit their potential.


Um...Where does it say that the Chip will choose your occupation?



For now, most of us here in the u.s.a. realize there is too much corruption in our government right now to consider giving them a system to control us


Are most of the people who are anti chip and card American? It might be a cultural bias.


but, I have a feeling this system will all but do away with physical money.


What do we lose if we lose physical money, and turn it into a card or chip interaction?

The only difference is all that loose change wont be dropped. you wont fumble with your wallet for 2 minutes on a bus cause the amount was 10 cents more than you thought.


Computers have glitches, but, there is no glitch when I spend the paper and metal.


How many times have you been shortchanged? Or given extra change?


I would be a fool to put my money into the hands of those who have misplaced and miscalculated before. I will take that responsibility myself.


So your saying mistakes in the past should allow no chance to make up for the damage? Thats kinda unfair isnt it?



I should not need a special card to get a job. If I work, I get compensation. Simple as it can be.


What do you mean compensation? Do you mean you get paid? or is it some American thing i havnt heard of?


Do away with income tax, we are taxed when we buy


That makes prices go up and makes certain things seem too expensive too buy. It also makes the system a tad more complicated than it is now.

If the government doesnt get money from its workers, it will become broke very quickly.


How many other hands need to be on the money I worked hard to earn?


Money is made to be given away, not hoarded, is it not? It will all go away eventually because you cant take it with you.



I should not need a card to go into a library, to read books. Not to go into the grocery store, for nourishment. My life shouldn't depend on a fallible computer system, nor a piece of plastic. I would rather go back to a barter system.


relying on fallible humans, instead?


If I could, I would go back to feudal Japan ... and be a honorable samurai. Live by the sword and protect those who I care for. Farm and live humbly


Then fight other men who are doing the same as you, protecting who they care for. Kill them, bleed them. You bleed aswell.

Its easy to look one sided at a society. I usually fail to see alot of the bad points of Rome.


I think guns are for weak people. If you can't fight with a fist or a melee weapon, then step down. It is easier to face an enemy from a distance than to stand and look them in the eye and give it all you got.


You have my Respect already, brother.


It is this same type of disgusting people who want to put video cameras on every street and in your homes, to watch you.


here is another case of misconception. How about i say this, then. To try and put it into context.

You say a camera in every street in every home.

So lets say in one city there are 5 billion cameras (A random value)

Now, those cameras are useless unless someone watches them, right? So are you going to use 5 billion people to watch every screen?

No? what if you gave each person 5 screens? thats 1 Billion security people doing nothing in their day but watch cameras.

what if you gave each person 50 screens? thats 100 million people watching screens.

notice how this is completly impossible? you cannot physically have that many people moniter all those cameras at once.

So now you decide that something needs to change. You use forms of these programs being designed around the world which includes a robotic criminal camera interface. It watches and recognises suspicious activity.

Anything suspicious, gets a flag. Anything downright illegal gets a bigger flag and a police call.

Now, a series of machines are watching these cameras. Not people.

Is your privacy being violated if you are watched by a machine? No, of course not. Thats like turning the TV in your bedroom around to face the wall while your on the job.

Anyway, that point is moot. There would be no cameras in peoples houses. One the streets i agree with, but not in peoples homes.



I am sorry you don't understand why privacy is so important. I wish you could


I understand it, but i also see its downsides. After having run ins with children throwing eggs and such at houses and then the police unable to respond because of privacy laws. Thats a downside, it serves to hide criminals from justice, does it not?


if you had a daughter, would you want some pervert monitoring the cameras zooming in on her 'special' areas? Oh, it may be against the rules, but then, now where does the monitoring stop? Monitors watching monitors? How far back does it go?


Ive already detailed what monitering means to me. Cameras should take humans out of the equasion completly.

If a machine started oggling my daughter i would think 2 things:

1. "Wow, thats quite odd."

2. "Shes beautiful enough to turn a machines eye?! WOW!"


If we had no money to drool over ... except for a few mentally ill people, crime would be virtually non-existent, hence, no need for over bearing security measures.


Hmmm, but that would make the state too hard to police.

Another of my ideas was a standard wage, not based on amounts of hours of work, but based on your job and your achievements.

So a student would get less than a scientist, same as usual.



Why should I not be trusted? I have done no wrong. Why put a camera on my street? I didn't feel unsafe, and I don't feel safer with it, I feel less safe, honestly. Why, if I am an innocent person, does my every detail need to be recorded? Shouldn't I be able to say naughty things in a loved ones ear without a microphone recording, without a video recording?


Of course you can. You have done no wrong, so the cameras can ignore you. Simple.



I see the card as another useless piece of plastic made to make life more complicated. If you lose it, you can't buy anything until you get another.


hense why i like the chip.



posted on Aug, 16 2007 @ 09:35 PM
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Oh no! You shocked yourself fixing your car, now you need a replacement chip. You can't eat, all your proof of existence is on the chip (future children). How do you prove who you are? Surgery to get the old chip out for a serial number to access the database ... that is of course we also have tattoo serial numbers to make that easier.


Well first of all the chip would have to set off its in built alarm if it is damaged, because anything which damages the chip would probably have harmed the person.

Well a chip isnt exactly what i mean. I mean an interface which allows stored data.

Which means that a hospital will carry blanks, with a link to the database, including things such as DNA and fingerprints, photo, etc.

So a chip can be reinstalled within no time, no real loss for the patient.


Oh no! Hurricane knocks power out to the area. There is no cash, so purchasing supplies is impossible. A week passes by, still no power, all your reserve food and water are gone. The stores could sell canned goods and bottled water, but they have no way of making transactions, physical money being abolished for the chips. Future looks grim once it has become 'normal'.


Well...

1. Any power knockouts would be repaired with greatest speed. Also, ive been thinking houses should have their own power generation such as solar, as an adjunct to normal power.

So even if this is knocked out aswell. A store could keep a backlog of things theyve sold, which the government will repay them later as soon as possible, as part of the welfare and an apology from the state to those who suffer through the loss of power.



posted on Aug, 16 2007 @ 10:26 PM
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Have any of you realized if one doesn't get the card one will not qualify for govt. benifits.
No card no ssi
No card no medicare

With an aging population, most will take the card even if the state they live in passes laws against the card.






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