Oct. Maximus - Fabulous post!!! Thank you!!!!

Just wanted to post for everyone else, this part of the wikepedia article

[external ]A mental image exists in an individual's mind: something one remembers or imagines. The subject of an image need not be real; it may be an abstract concept, such as a graph, function, or "imaginary" entity. For example, Sigmund Freud claimed to have dreamt purely in aural-images of dialogues. The development of synthetic acoustic technologies and the creation of sound art have led to a consideration of the possibilities of a sound-image comprised of irreducible phonic substance beyond linguistic or musicological analysis[/external]

Ok 1st off, Ive been studying psych for awhile, and never researched Frued's aural images, ect. Thanks for that.

You are right, I myself do get 'causght up' in certain ideas because of my personal 'bias image'. And, I try to use these forums to talk to others, so I can judge both sides, and base certain opnions from various places, in ,many ways. I do not in fact always succeed- shhish..I'm human

And, as far as the bible hohaha, ect., it does state that our choice in the sign of the beast will be up to us to decide if we shall recieve it. And, something about it's inconvience - I'll try to find the exact phrase somewhere, but you catch my drift.

I'd like to think that I am a very logical women (at most times), and more of a realist( if I HAD to choice some sort of definition) I have had many bad bad personal experiences with the Catholic Church. They're not on my top ten , but yet, I beleive in Jesus christ and I have faith in God.
And once this whole ID idea came out, it's sent chills.

I just know that it's a slippery slope, right down to the enforcement of microchips, and at that point maybe we'll all be so brain dead anyways that we wont even know we have the lil buggar inside us...

OMax Then someone will create the chip idea, and it will be optional, of course, rights can be violated, i dont care really. But the human body cannot be marked by someone else without permission

'right can be violated...the human body cannot be marked by someone else without permission' - There's something wrong with that sentence, my friend.
not to mention, 'i dont care really' ..yes, you do, and thats why you and all of us our here. Whether we like it or not, no matter which side of which issue you stand behind, everyone here on ATS cares. Thats why we are here! And it's a good thing, don't knock it, brotha

And, when identity theft has been rising, and 'top leaders' accussed and recognized for misues of power, or extension of, and with a present day reliance on our credit, bank, passport, ect. this just doesnt seem like the right avenue to go down.

give me liberty, or give me death

no chips or id for me

i guess it is good for those of you who have 'hundreds of cards' such as OM.

I don't even have my driver's license with me half the time! (I grab the wrong wallet) The last job I had, I refused my social security card. It can be done.

I have slowly stepped out of the limelight. I no longer have a bank, I have closed a lot of accounts. I am disappearing from society before they try to shoot me with an RFID dart. If it is nano-tech, you wouldn't feel much. Darn mosquitos!

If you are willing to accept it, good for you. Do you not realize that this is about CHOICE!

now what if it was a requirement for all americans to be vegetarian. It is healthy. We need to stop obesity for the good of the country. They pass a law, that to protect the citizens from food terrorism and from themselves, there will no longer be meat, candy, chocolate for sale in the u.s. Your ID, used to purchase everything, notices you have gone over your calorie limit for the day. You go to a fast food restaurant and you can only get water.

Even better, you are a little short that month on bills ... you are trying to figure out how to pay the electric and eat. Well, the ID card just decided, you are not eating ... the taxes from the electric bill are more important than the taxes (or lack of) they would get from a food purchase.

I take it most people haven't read the works from WWII ... pick up some Ayn Rand, some George Orwell. There are a lot of great books that show what oppression is like, and how the majority don't see or question it. We are being slowly coerced into the desire to be controlled. Hitler was good at this, but we have a whole gang of them playing us for fools, and protecting each other by lies and pardons!

I would rather live away from society in freedom of choice, thought, mind ... than give up any of my liberty.

Those who give up essential liberty for temporary safety, deserve neither.

Read the quotes from the people who founded this nation. They would be disgusted by what we put up with and allow. There would be another 'tea party' that is certain.

I should not have to be forced to do something just because they think it is right or you don't care enough to see that rights are violated in baby steps, so you don't notice it.

If you combine a lot of current theories running right now ... they will have most of you begging for the chip and applauding the presidential resolution of dictatorship. I could explain, but you wouldn't listen anyway. They have issued the 'warnings' themselves, they have laid their plans in front of our noses.

They have trained you on what to see so well, they are trying to set you up for a checkmate by making you concentrate on the wrong pieces.

Don't lay down you king, stand up and fight, even if it is a small issue, it is still our life, our country, and it should be our decisions as the majority.

When 70%+ of a country wants something to happen, and the ones they elected cover their eyes to the fact, we have a serious problem! If you can't admit to that, then all is lost for most of us anyway. I will lose my life before becoming part of the corruption, I will also not accept the 'mark' on my head, in my hand, or anywhere else.

You only live once, stand up for yourself and your beliefs. Don't let apathy and ignorance be the definition of your actions.

I have never been arrested, but your comment about criminals ... so, once they serve their time, they are no longer free? They should pay for the rest of their lives? What if they were wrongly convicted (we have done so, and put them to death and found out later). You must be the model citizen, right? A lot of people are in for drug crimes of a substance that was one time legal. It is not like they haven't made mistakes before ... look at the drug - alcohol ... so many did it after it was illegal ... criminals ... that they made it legal again. Just think, if you ever sip any alcoholic beverage, you would have been a criminal not too many years ago ... are you saying all of our laws are just? or are a lot of them a burden to the average person in society.

I may be making a lot of currently over enthusiast emphasis ... but if you look at the big picture, and pay attention to what has been done, and what it is leading to ... it is a clear possibility. All I am really saying is stand up for yourself, your family, your neigbors, your fellow american ... and all of our liberty.

I guess, I could say I don't care as well. I wish for the best for everyone, but I am going to do what is right, upholding my inalienable rights, liberties, and freedoms afforded to me by the constitution and the bill of rights. It is time for the citizens to take back their country, even if it is only one by one, eventually all will wake up ... or are on the side of the corrupt, then they will be defeated and put to justice for their crimes appropriately.

So what's the differance between an ID card and passport in that case?

Originally posted by St James
Well, for starters there will be an RFID chip in the REAL ID card. It will carry all your personal information and you will need it to enter any goverment building, open a bank account, board an airplane etc. This will allow the government to track your movements...

Or....
to track the movements of a growing number of small groups of people who deliberately switch cards,

you see, those tracking cards are also weapons, which can be used by those who would be called anarchists against the Empire.


i will try my darndest to get more than one card issued to me,
there are ways of doing that, just as there are ways of getting several drivers' licenses right now.

Oct. Maximus - Fabulous post!!! Thank you!!!!

*Bows* Your very welcome, and i aim to please.

Well...i aim for something.

You are right, I myself do get 'causght up' in certain ideas because of my personal 'bias image'.

shhish..I'm human

Cha ching! That is the correct answer. It is not only you of course, every human on this forum (i know some claim not to be but i ignore that for now) is biased. They hear a theory, they look at the evidence and they believe that theory.

Example- Person A hears "World Trade centre brought down by government" . Person A then searches the internet for other sources and finds a multitude. because of this, person A may believe that because he has evidence to support his or her belief.

this, of course, doesnt make it true. But the person will defend his position because he believes the evidence backs up his theory.

And, as far as the bible hohaha, ect., it does state that our choice in the sign of the beast will be up to us to decide if we shall recieve it. And, something about it's inconvience - I'll try to find the exact phrase somewhere, but you catch my drift.

But the thing is that Revalations is a tad vague on some of these details.

With my former point. A person reads revalations and reads that the "Mark of the beast will be given to those who will recieve it." They then read the "Real ID" idea and decide there is a connection.

I dont know the passage, but from the sound of it it is saying that people who want the mark of the beast, can have it.

The real ID, however, sounds to be mandatory. (im not in the US)

flawed evidence? or is it belief in a theory running parrallel with "Evidence"?

I beleive in Jesus christ and I have faith in God.

I am an atheist historian. i can admit for a fact that Jesus Christ existed as a man. I know for a fact that many of the things he said in the bible can be taken as truth.

I also know that many things may have been attributed to him. Its happened many times before in history. So the Jesus who is telling everyone to be nice to each other, who is a talented doctor and a man of peace. Later he becomes a spiritual healer, and the son of god.

And once this whole ID idea came out, it's sent chills.

Which came first, the fear of real ID, or the idea that Real ID was evil?

I cant stop you being fearful, learning psychology you will know that fear is deeper than that. All i can do is hope that if you open your mind to the concept and allow other ideas to happen, its not all darkness and gloom.

'right can be violated...the human body cannot be marked by someone else without permission' - There's something wrong with that sentence, my friend.

Only because i havnt stated my beliefs fully.

I see rights such as the US constitution as being flawed, or able to be flawed. Simply for the fact that they are created by humans for an age past.

i am an atheist, but if there is one thing i believe in. it is that respect from one human to another should not need to be enforced by law. Respect of mind, respect of body.

I will always put my body in the way to protect others. That is my token of respect for them. All i hope is that others do the same courtesy for me. There is no excuse in the world that should allow one human to violate another humans body or mind without permission.

yes, you do, and thats why you and all of us our here.

I care to educate, i want people to not be fearful of the darkness. Of things they cannot see or know. Thats the main reason why i am here.

And, when identity theft has been rising

And if we were microchipped stealing an identity would be that much harder, wouldnt it?

now what if it was a requirement for all americans to be vegetarian. It is healthy.

Except for the loss of things such as Iron and other things humans eat meat for.

Well, the ID card just decided, you are not eating

So where does it say that your real ID card will choose your decisions for you?

Thats right, nowhere. Your belief is that the world will become stricter. I know it will be hard to change your mind, but just think of the Card (or chip, or whatever) as your bank account in your hand. No control, nothing like that. Just a tool.

Mountains out of molehills.

Oh, and those people who are knocking 'convenience', you put a nail through wood with your hands, ill use a hammer. We will see who comes out with less blood on their hands, faster and more effectively.

*Bows to nowayreally* I apologise for my past harshness, of course.

you don't need to eat meat ... not for iron or anything.

There are threads on it.

If you really wish, I could do research for you, since you like convenience ... but I try to say ... be independent.

You can believe you need meat if you wish, that is a fallacy. I don't take vitamins, supplements, anything. I am more than healthy. In fact, I don't eat fish or eggs either ... limited dairy. It is called eating a variety. I get plenty of flavor too, so it isn't a bland lifestyle (not a diet, more of a choice not to eat animals, no I am not part of PETA). I feel tons better than I used to, maybe it was because I was a hot wing and bacon eater for so long, my heart and veins thank me for cleaning up my act. I can understand people liking and wanting meat, and have no quarrels, but, it really isn't a must, that is a lie taught to us, learn your veggies and you learn their vitamin and mineral contents.


I agree with you, and I believe I stated that in the last, I was over-emphasizing the risks. You cannot say there is NO risk of it coming to be that way, just like I can't say it definitely will. I would rather err on the side of caution.

I would like you to explain to me, how this card and/or chip would make my life easier?

Have we become that lazy? What is so wrong with carrying cash? What is wrong with not having to conform and be categorized? If I had my way, I would find somewhere to live off the land and not be bothered at all by a government. Not that I need to be solitary, I just gave up materialism a long time ago. It is amazing how different you view the world. All this plastic money, needing the best of everything ... it is all a scam. It entertains people, makes them temporarily happy ... but true happiness comes from within and loved ones, not bought. I am pleased to have learned that.

I will eventually give up internet someday. I mainly use it for music and videos. I find getting back to a simpler way of life is much more fruitful emotionally and mentally. But others would argue. I guess when I realized that a nice house didn't make me happy. A nice car didn't make me happy. HDTV and games get boring or zone you out. It just seems technology isn't as great as it seemed when I was younger.

I want you to honestly tell me all the wonderful benefits of an ID ... other than replacing my insurance card, driver's license, and ss card ... which by the way, I look at less than once a year.

I am not a terrorist, so why should I be treated like a criminal and forced to carry a background id with me at all times. I feel like they are prosecuting me just for living in the country.

Can you not see how it may not be viewed as a lifetime supply of cotton candy and cream soda? What if you like chocolate and pineapple juice?

I could do this forever, just trying to find out why you are so strongly in support of it, to where you think those who oppose are are silly chicken little(s) ... I would say CTs are more like the boy who cried wolf ... since we do cry a lot about things ... but one of them (or maybe more) end up being a real wolf. It ends up bad for both sides, but, so is closing your eyes and mind and ignoring possibilities of being manipulated by people in power. It isn't like the history of governments are good sign of what to expect, is it? History tends to repeat itself, especially when ignored and forgotten.

I would think you would be more tolerable of the position against an ID card, on a conspiracy forum, in the New World Order section of threads ... I guess that is asking for too much?

sorry, i pressed post too early.

mmmm...potato bake

*ahem*

I take it most people haven't read the works from WWII ... pick up some Ayn Rand, some George Orwell.

Some of the works of Orwell are compulsary sources in year 10 and 11's study of English in Sydney.

the one which sticks in my mind is Animal Farm.

I would rather live away from society in freedom of choice, thought, mind ... than give up any of my liberty.

Then that is your choice, but dont complain that society doesnt conform to your standards. You leave society because you believe we have all become "sheep". That is our choice and you should not say one is better than the other.

Those who give up essential liberty for temporary safety, deserve neither.

Who decides that we deserve neither?

Read the quotes from the people who founded this nation. They would be disgusted by what we put up with and allow. There would be another 'tea party' that is certain.

I assume you mean America.

We would also be disgusted with their bathing habits, wouldnt we?

It works both ways.

I should not have to be forced to do something just because they think it is right or you don't care enough to see that rights are violated in baby steps, so you don't notice it.

Sometimes rights should be violated, no? These rights you speak of is the constitution, i take it? This constitution was written in an age past, and its laws should not be considered written in stone.

If you think old laws are better, i could of course bring some Roman laws. I could run for Tribune of the Plebs in the next election. Meaning i can create my own legislation and avoid the democratic process completly, i can also veto any law i wish.

Man, that would kick ass.

If you combine a lot of current theories running right now ... they will have most of you begging for the chip and applauding the presidential resolution of dictatorship

many theories which are based on bad evidence, uncredible sources and create a one sided view of society as a whole. Your own personal biases (such as you being against dictatorship and chipping) should not be considered 'right' because they are your ideas.

I could explain, but you wouldn't listen anyway. They have issued the 'warnings' themselves, they have laid their plans in front of our noses.

That arguement is a good way out of providing explanation and evidence, dont you think? They have laid their plans. You only find sinister things when you look for sinister things.

They have trained you on what to see so well, they are trying to set you up for a checkmate by making you concentrate on the wrong pieces.

Im Australian, i havnt been "trained" and yet i see the chessboard as a whole, with 2 sides. The pieces all seeing in black and white, while they all spout ideas in grey.

perhaps you have trained yourself to delve into the invisible. You have done so you see ghosts where there are none.

Don't lay down you king, stand up and fight, even if it is a small issue, it is still our life, our country, and it should be our decisions as the majority.

You mean mob rule?

Well the processes are there, to get your opinion heard you must have your idea for a law to be drafted by your local representative, is it not?

have you done so?

If you can't admit to that, then all is lost for most of us anyway.

I can admit your idea on 'election' is skewed. Rarely is the person you elect your ideal in all ideas and forms, he or she is merely the 'best fit'.

I will lose my life before becoming part of the corruption, I will also not accept the 'mark' on my head, in my hand, or anywhere else.

Then you may live as you wish. With none of the benefits or downfalls of the chip, or the card. If society moves on you shouldnt be unhappy if you are forgotten, it was your choice to do so.

You only live once, stand up for yourself and your beliefs. Don't let apathy and ignorance be the definition of your actions.

I am standing up for my beliefs.

Just think, if you ever sip any alcoholic beverage, you would have been a criminal not too many years ago ... are you saying all of our laws are just? or are a lot of them a burden to the average person in society.

Prohibition? That was just the US, i believe. I dont know US laws, so i dont know if they are just or not. i know their application is wrong, like the treatment of celebrities compared to the average person.

it is a clear possibility. All I am really saying is stand up for yourself, your family, your neigbors, your fellow american ... and all of our liberty.

An UNCLEAR possibility. With possible negative effects, the effects of which have been attributed to a mythical secret society which may exist, which may want to do 'evil' things, etc etc.

by the way, i have no fellow Americans.

I have one girl whos named Maria, quite nice. Bit ditsy though.

I guess, I could say I don't care as well. I wish for the best for everyone, but I am going to do what is right, upholding my inalienable rights, liberties, and freedoms afforded to me by the constitution and the bill of rights.

Here is my quibble. I believe that no document should give a person those liberties and ideas, they should be indelible.

I may sound harsh, if i do that is just my way. I am here to eradicate fear. There are unknowns in society. but until they show themselves we can do nothing. We should not fear that which we cannot see because all too many times we are simply chasing ghosts.

Oct.Maximus

I would rather live away from society in freedom of choice, thought, mind ... than give up any of my liberty.

Then that is your choice, but dont complain that society doesnt conform to your standards. You leave society because you believe we have all become "sheep". That is our choice and you should not say one is better than the other.

Very true.
Only, it gets so frustrating, and at this point so difficult to 'talkt' to people at all. And, I am speaking about American. I try to always leave my mind open and my mouth uncensored, just in case their is someone out there that maybe needs/wants to hear it. And sad part is that I'm not even talking about spirituality/911 conspiracies/politics, I mean ANYTHING of relevance other than wear they bought their shoes or how bad the new professor sucks, or whoes sleeping with who.
You live in a different country, and although my own personal experience, age, environment,ect., may biased my take on the latter of American, you still don't have to see this society all around you. (or at least I'm assuming, since I know some Australians, and you all Rock!)
Basically, my long drawn out point is that, I and many others here on ATS or in America in general, don't really like to have to term our own people/friends/family/neighbors sheep. When we do so in our writing or posting it is mainly due to our poor trapped,enslaved knowledge and companionship we desire for ALL around us, yet recieve so little of.

Those who give up essential liberty for temporary safety, deserve neither.

Who decides that we deserve neither?

We each decide, personally as individuals, in what we say and what we do. Unfortunately when we live in the surroundings of our radios/televisons at home in the office, shisshh... even in fancy 'Fill up your gas, and watch gasTV' at our pumps; we are inslaved to other people, and their opinion and state of mind. Why? Who knows, money, reputation, family, either way you are trapped by 'mass appeal' and majority 'rules'.

They have you locking your doors, fearful when your children play, scared when you get your billss..ugghmm...I mean mail. Even for someone like myself, who tries to avoid television, celeb gossip,ect.. I basically know more about it then I do Iraq War because that is all around me, in conversations, e-mail, work, you friggin name it.

I'm sorry I'm definitley venting. But, it's hard to say anymore what I actaully even believe, cause Im scared its not even my own ideas or thoughts.
This is why.

st. Udio those of you that live by biblical admonishments to not 'take the mark',
do as you will...and i'll do as i must...

You are frighteningly correct there. I agree, and I really believe the chip is more of the 'sign of the beast', ect., then the ID.
Maybe there will be some black market id dealers, and then Ill be hooked up.
Slippery slope, thats all I can say. But what you gonna do when already 98 mph and have already covered more than 2/3 the mountain? Just keep sliding I guess.

Being forced to be chipped or made to carry an ID card around?

Neither is particularly pleasing. I would fight the chip in any way I could. My body is mine and no-one is poking around in it without my permission.

ID cards, too, I would fight against. I enjoy walking down the street uninterrupted and free. Having a card that could be tracked and showed to the police whenever they wanted isn't my idea of being free.

We'll see soon though, our governments are trying to weed their way into every aspect of our lives and I'm sick off it. I love my country and I would do anything to defend it, from external or internal enemies. Unfortunately the government seems to be one of these threats, not only content with ruining our fair country, they send troops to far flung places to ruin other peoples as well.

They try and enforce the chip or the card and they'll see first hand why governments should be afraid of their people and not the other way around.

My dog is already chipped, my brothers Falcon is already chipped, my licence plate my drivers licence, credit card and debit card. Hey did I in anyway except the sign of the devil? I don't 'feel' any different...

[edit on 12-8-2007 by antar]

I have no problem with the Real ID card.

I'm having a bit of trouble understanding the problem others have...some will ramble on and on about NWO or 'The mark of the Beast'. We have all of these forms of ID regardless, what difference does it really make if it is all housed on one card?

As for the RFID....*shrug* Don't use mobile phones or OnStar systems... it is not like the government can't locate you now if they really wanted to. Why do so many people act as though none of this technology exists until the card is implemented?

The masses NEED to be controlled. It's a fact of life. The majority of human beings can not think for themselves, let alone lead themselves. They need someone or something to tell them exactly what to do. Hence the term, SHEEPLE.

Due to the career I have chosen, past experience has shown me that those that so vehemently fight for their "Privacy" are normally people who have something to hide.

A very long time ago I was anti NWO, until I started really paying attention to human beings. Until someone can point out something really BAD about a one world government and a REAL ID card, I'll stick to my opinion.... The world needs one form of government, one form of control, and one form of individualizing members of the herd. SAD BUT TRUE.

[edit on 8/12/2007 by CSkys]

For the record. A thurough invesigation and paid leave translates into "we think our officer did nothing wrong" He will not be brought up on charges. Go back to your normal daily lives. Do not resist our authority. Suspects maybe brought up on further charges for not dying when we shoot them. Obey, Comply, Accept.

I'll get one---on a false identity---just ask an illegal immigrant, oops, "un-documented worker" where he got his.
Around $50 for a decent one, couple hundred for a really good one and available in just about any good sized city from an MS13 member.
Look for the face tats.

Never, I will fight and run until the end, if it means erasing who I am, delete any diploma I ever had, to lose all the possessions in my name, declare me dead, fine I will accept it with joy. I live in Canada, they can't put me in prison because I'm a supposed therorist. They can put their card in their derrière.

Originally posted by titorite
A soceity where saying or thinking the wrong thing gets you killed in your NWO..

If you look back through history at ANY society that has changed from one form of governance to another, from the 'civilising' empire-conquests of the Romans and others, to brutal civil war in 17th C. Britain when absolute rule of Monarchy was replaced by democratic Parliament. The period of transition is always marked by revolt, bloodshed, iron rule-of-law, and finally, acceptance of the new system of governance