The Ugly Truth About Canadian Health Care (& Other Refs)

Originally posted by BO XIAN

Aucoin’s insurance didn’t

This line bothers me since our Medical system does not cover prescription drugs. To blame our Medical coverage on her own benefits coverage is like apples and oranges.

If I go to the doctor my visit is covered by gov't, but if he prescribes a drug I have to pay for it. Personal benefits coverage from employers cover cost of presciptions usually or you buy additional insurance. If I have to have hospital care for an accident or surgery, my gov't covers all expenses, drugs and labs or any procedures.

My only beef is my Dr. had his license removed and I can't find a replacement.

If you don't work and am on welfare then some drugs are covered but not all.

[edit on 31/7/07 by Rhain]

[edit on 31/7/07 by Rhain]

Originally posted by DontTreadOnMe
All I know about Canadian health care is that a few Canadians I know come to the US for their medical needs. Too long a wait and from what I understood, the government decided whether of not you could get certain treatments.

My questions:
Why in the world would you need a private insurance if you have national health care

Excluding the drug issue.

Medication, Optical and Dental are not covered in Canada, with emergency exceptions. That`s where you get personal insurance.

If you need emergency treatment, you`re covered for all three. If you need your teeth cleaned, you`re on your own. If you need cataract surgery, IIRC the gov`t pays. If you need lasik, you`re on your own. I`m pretty sure that eye checkups are covered, and I know for a fact that glasses and contacts are not. I don`t know why. They should be.

Medication tends to be free for the short term. When you go to the emergency, they tend to give you a freebie to get you through the night or the next couple of days, and then a prescription to get filled on your own dime.

I have not been living in Canada for several years now, but I seem to recall that the deduction for OHIP was minimal. 20 or 30 bucks a month seems about right, but I may be wrong. It was never enough to remark on, in any case.

ON the cross-border issue, it`s strange, but even living close to the border I`ve never known anyone who actually went south for treatment. I hear the odd friend of a friend story, but never actually met anyone who did. On the other hand, the drug store in my hometown added bus parking about 10 years ago, and does a brisk business selling to seniors from the USA.

On the wait time issue, i think you need to take the size and demographics of Canada into consideration. roughly 1/3 of the country lives outside of the main urban areas. Roughly 9 million people live in areas more than a 2 hour drive from an urban centre with medical specialists. A substantial portion of the population need to consider flight time to get a hip replacement or to see a specialist. That`s unavoidable. Thompson, Manitoba does not have the population base to sustain a major hospital.

A few years back, a friend of mine crashed his bike south of Red Lake, Ontario. Broke his pelvis, shattered a femur, punctured a lung, did himself up good and proper. Just about dead when a cop happened by. One hour later, he was in a helicopter where the medics got him stable, and a further 6 hours later he was in the emergency room in thunder bay. From first response, that`s a seven hour wait for treatment. It was also unavoidable. There was no bill to pay, and his monthly deduction actually went down as he was unable to work for the better part of a year.


mod edit, reduce quote

[edit on 1-8-2007 by DontTreadOnMe]

Originally posted by vox2442I have not been living in Canada for several years now, but I seem to recall that the deduction for OHIP was minimal. 20 or 30 bucks a month seems about right, but I may be wrong. It was never enough to remark on, in any case

OHIP(Ontario Health Insurance Plan) is found here and explains it all. It also covered by Employers 100% now.

I had 3 children under this plan and paid no out of pocket expense. The only thing that has changed now is circumsing is no longer covered.

[edit on 31/7/07 by Rhain]

I hear the stories of people waiting months to see specialists but I have only ever knew one whom this happened too and when her condition got worse she got bumped up to the head of the list.

It's heartening to read your kind post.

There is a study at the end of the bunch of refs I posted links to . . . which lists a bunch of pros and cons found in the study. I need to review that list more carefully, I guess.

Someone posting later than you said I appear to be anti-Federal Government.

That's true--in a lot of respects. Defense, minding the borders . . . maybe setting standards for inter-state highways or a minimal some such.

Mostly I'm fairly hostile to large government organizations of any kind or level. They always as in always seem to increase in power, control, size, taxation demands etc. while decreasing individual freedoms, self-reliance etc.

I don't find that healthy, productive, safe, wise.

I'm glad you have had fortunate experiences. I wish there were a study--maybe there is--which documented the percentage of Canadians who have had wonderful experiences vs horrid experiences. Anyone know of such stats? I don't recall them from the docs I ref'd.

mod edit, fix quote tags


[edit on 1-8-2007 by DontTreadOnMe]

Aren't there some states here in the USA that have enacted state
subsidized universal healthcare? If so, does anyone know how
things are going in those particular states? Are the citizens there
happy with the system?

BTW, as long as people keep injesting fast-food, sugar-laden
sodas, etc., while at the same time wanting cure the diseases
induced by these poisons, healthcare demand will stay high and
so will the prices for treatments and insurance. It's all about
supply and demand, just like we're experiencing with petroleum.

-cwm

[edit on 31-7-2007 by carewemust]

[QUOTE]
How would you cut the head off the giant medical lobby to bring prices down? As it stands, there is no way for any kind of affordable health care in the US.

I would have to get a second job to offset the huge increase in my income tax to support this fiasco.
[/QUOTE]

Actually, I am fairly hostile to:

1. lawyers egging on every excuse for a suit right and left and in between--then taking most of the proceeds for themselves leaving the true victims with crumbs. GRRRR.

2. the AMA (American Medical Assoc). I think they are largely a greedy bunch of folks pretending to protect the public when actually they are trying to protect their franchise to keep costs high and their 2nd homes and fancy cars luxurious. GRRRR

3. Not all corporations involved in health care have been super admirable either. I think drug companies have been complicit with the Feds in a host of evil experiments and practices. And, they tend to abandon crucial drugs for rare diseases because there is no megabucks money in them.

4. Politicians in bed with trial lawyer lobbyists; AMA lobbyists; drug company lobbyists should be tried and imprisoned. Term limits should be in the Constitution. Professional politicians are nothing but professional power mongers, theives, traitors, . . . and increasingly globalist idiots.

However, not all corporations have been hideous just as not all members of the AMA have been hideous and even some lawyers truly seek fitting redress for some victims.

I agree that our present system is a mess. I contend that socialized medicine would be FAR WORSE IN SHORT ORDER.

I think the above problems would have to be addressed in any reform of any type that would become practical, fair, reasonably priced, effective.

I believe the market place with proper reforms would be best able to keep things decent compared to government bloated bureaucracy and corruption.

Who me? Strong feelings? Nawwwwwwwww. It's your imagination. LOL.

I haven't heard of such abuse in any socialised system, but just as in a private system it could exist. Your personal data isn't any safer in a private hospital than it is in a government run hospital.

I have heard of such abuses in a socialist system. Some seem more clever and some less so and easier.

Certainly the personal data thing is a hazard in our technological computer network age.

However, in my experience in government . . . the bureaucrats FEEL AND ACT AS THOUGH THEY HAVE A DIVINE RIGHT OF KINGS TO DO WHATEVER THE BLAZES THEY FEEL LIKE DOING WITH ONE'S DATA INCLUDING MAKING PERSONAL PROFIT OFF OF IT AS WELL AS USING IT FOR WHATEVER COERCIVE AGENDA THEY MAY HAVE AT THE MOMENT.

At least in the private sector, they have more of a concern about being found out and fired. Bureaucrats seem to be immune to any discipline or punishment at all. Witness Shrillery's getting off 100% free with the intimidation, blackmail etc. that was rife with the FBI files she kept close to her. That was just the tip of the iceberg.

Originally posted by truthseeker420
faceless corporations deciding who gets care and who doesn't.

Oh wail me a long lament . . .

Sorry, I'm not deeply moved. I'd prefer a faceless corporation to a faceless bureaucrat most any day.

At least with the corporation, there's SOME concern about the shareholders and therefore the customers.

With bureaucrats, they seem to fear no one and be totally immune to any discipline; any concern about efficiency; any concern about the customer getting their money's worth much less fitting optimum care.

Sounds like you've been feasting on a steady diet of socialist/communist/globalist propaganda for quite some time. I'd encourage you to investigate the other side more thoroughly and more fair-mindedly than SEEMS to be the case.

We may have more programs for the poor...like any illegal Mexican woman can run into any hospital and have her baby delivered..baby is American Citizen and so is the family. Any single woman with children has access to medical care, children have it in most states, in Alaska all children are covered till they are 18-19 years old.
Socialized medicine will never be in America, we are a free people and free choices, Canada is a socialized country, the government pays them money to do as they are told. I am happy with my insurance and medical care, I donot want the government in my heathcare and I am never going to wait for any surgery as they do in most countries, like Canada and Germany to name a couple.
My sister in law lived in Germany for 25 years, when she started having heart problems and needed surgery it took 3 years on a surgery list and the damage was so bad she had to move back to the USA to get treatments in order to stay alive. Universal Healthcare is something we all should fear, this government is no good at setting up anything that would ever address all the needs of everyone involved. I look at families today with their two jobs, daycare and Mc Donalds...their two cars and two insurance bills etc..and wonder if they give a thought as to their healthcare. Home mortage they can't afford, etc. I doubt they do, but I will bet they will vote for Universal Healthcare so they don't need to pay another bill..and thats scary to me.
We have the best healthcare in the world, not perfect, but better than anywhere I have ever seen. Twenty five years ago I was in Mexico and a friend was ill, we went to a local hospital to see if they could hepl with chest pains...we walked in and had to turn around and walk out..it smelled so bad and was so dirty you could see years of blood etc.
We have serious problems with drug companies and the FDA who get greedier every year, where every new drug put out is scarier than the last one they tried to market. They donot want to cure anything, that would not be good business. Billions spent on cancer, AIDS, and other main medical issues are not spent to be cured, but to extend as long as they can, for big bucks. This is where the American people must try to unite and put congress into action to stop...and make the FDA accountable.
If we legalize all the immigrants tomorrow it will crush our social security system and kill our medical system and this is why they want Universal medical care, other reasons that have nothing to do with your getting good healthcare thats for sure.
Its not about you the consumer, its about more government, more drugs etc.
Healthcare will be compromised..you can count on it.

Originally posted by tom goose
Bo... after reading your last post, it seems to me that you just refuse to support anything on a federal level. . . . private insurace corps that will, because they can and have to in order to survive competitive business, try to manipulate you into viciouse treatment circles.

I'm not entirely happy with the insurance industry either. But I truly believe they are LESS evil than the bureaucrats who seem immune to any rational sensible honorable treatment of the taxpayer or the customer . . .and especially immune to any discipline for corruption and horrid treatment of taxpayers and customers.

I suppose folks could pick examples of either that would be equally horrid. But on the whole, I'd still rather cast my lot with a corporation that has a reputation for being fair and honorable to their shareholders AND customers than I had a politician or a bureaucrat who seems bone-marrow inherently geared, trained and rewarded only for feathering their own nest and doing only what their power mongering black hearts feel like doing--with no redress from anyone.

Yes the government tries to manipulate us (im talking about canada, the US straite violates its citizens) that is their job, and if we dont like, we know who to damand be replaced.

I think a critical issue for me is the capacity for government to manipulate knows no bounds. At least a corporation is more or less stuck with it's own turf. However, NOW, we have THE WORST OF ALL POSSIBLE WORLDS with the MILITARY INDUSTRIAL GOVERNMENT ELITES in bed with each other and multiplying each other's power mongering and corruption and tyranny to beat the band--trying to out-do each other in one upping each other in tyranny, corruption and enslaving practices and plans. GRRR.

In the private sector, it will get to thick too fast and once it starts no politician is going to go up against the lobbies that support private healthcare, it only seems innocent now while we defend ourselves agaist them, but it will be a whole new ball game once we need to take it away from them.

Yeah, the lobbying is horrid. Worse are the career politicans that take the corruption feeding trough with a lifetime IV implant at taxpayer expense and to the destruction of the taxpayer as well as of freedoms, self-reliance, integrity, the family etc.

As a +20 year health/life insurance broker, I can assure everyone that
my clients who have their own (individual or company sponsored) health
insurance get far better care than those who are on government
managed plans. (Medicaid, Veterans Admin, KidCare, etc.). I would
add some of my own horror-stories to this thread, but the prior posters
have done an excellent job conveying them to the readers already.

From experience, I'd say that the best options are:
1. Do some research into how to live healthy, thereby keeping yourself
and your family away from the medical system. Thankfully, more and
more people are realizing that this is indeed possible.
2. Write to your local senators/congressmen and ask that they put in
place a subsidy system to help middle class people afford health insurance
and that no-one can be denied coverage due to pre-existing conditions.
3. Raise the deductible on your health insurance to the $5,000 to $10,000
range without Doctor Visit Co-pays. Put the substantial savings into a
Health Savings Account (HSA) at your local bank. Use those tax-favored
savings to pay your deductible for the once-in-awhile medical episode.

-CareWeMust (Chicago)

Originally posted by vox2442

They should be.

Hmmmmm . . . I think there's a fallacy in there somewhere.

should . . .

I've found it useful . . . when considering good/bad; better/worse; best worst . . . should/should not . . . to ask:

1. What's the related goal?
2. What's the criteria/standard of measure that informs me when the goal has been reached?
3. What's the context.

So . . . we are supposed to assent to this should--that all manner of nanny State cradle to grave care SHOULD be free . . . etc.

When all of living reality tells us

there is NO free lunch.

And, in my observation and experience, the bureaucrat exacts far too high a price in money, bother, freedoms, tyranny . . . . for the meager overheade bloated services they offer.

I think it's just as reasonable to say:

PEOPLE

should NOT

live in idiotic ways which increase their health problems and then expect other free individuals to bail them out for their stupidities.

And when folks are tired of such extortion, the selfish victims collect together enough greedy politicians to herd all the sheeple together in sufficient numbers to increase the extortions in a grand politico-bureaucrat feeding frenzy.

No thanks.

Yeah, I'd sometimes love for lots of things to be on a FREE LUNCH basis.

But I've found that personal responsibility and self-reliance as well as a network of mutually caring; mutually selfless; mutually sacrificially giving Christian believers is a far better route. Such also tend to hold one another accountable for living healthy lifestyles.

FREE LUNCH idiocies breed indolence, irresponsibility, rebellious prickly and destructive flavors of independence vs responsible freedom; laziness; obstancy; arrogance and other fun things that do NOT enhance the individuals' lives nor the lives of those around them one twit's worth.

ON the cross-border issue, it`s strange, but even living close to the border I`ve never known anyone who actually went south for treatment. I hear the odd friend of a friend story, but never actually met anyone who did. On the other hand, the drug store in my hometown added bus parking about 10 years ago, and does a brisk business selling to seniors from the USA.

I certainly do not think that medications in this country are at all reasonably priced--even taking into account the super expensive developmental costs of some drugs. I do think greed has become entrenched in at least most conglomerate drug companies.

But I think that problem would be solveable with proper tort and other reforms.

On the wait time issue, i think you need to take the size and demographics of Canada into consideration. roughly 1/3 of the country lives outside of the main urban areas. Roughly 9 million people live in areas more than a 2 hour drive from an urban centre with medical specialists. A substantial portion of the population need to consider flight time to get a hip replacement or to see a specialist. That`s unavoidable. Thompson, Manitoba does not have the population base to sustain a major hospital.

No doubt those are serious aspects of such problems. I'm not sure what solution there is short of banding together whether privately or publically across sufficient population numbers to make it work.

Am glad your friend got his pelvis taken care of post haste and so cheaply.

Originally posted by carewemust
Aren't there some states here in the USA that have enacted state
subsidized universal healthcare? If so, does anyone know how
things are going in those particular states? Are the citizens there
happy with the system?

I don't personally know of any which have gone that far. Mass. may be an exception. I personally think that with the whole system so rife with bloat privately and publically . . . it can only go from bad to worse until there is wholesale top to bottom reform. That won't happen until after Jesus Comes again, literally.

BTW, as long as people keep injesting fast-food, sugar-laden
sodas, etc., while at the same time wanting cure the diseases
induced by these poisons, healthcare demand will stay high and
so will the prices for treatments and insurance. It's all about
supply and demand, just like we're experiencing with petroleum.

-cwm

[edit on 31-7-2007 by carewemust]

I rather agree with you on that score. A lot of truth in all those points, imho.

And, there's something exceedingly cheeky and morally as well as socially corrupt about person "A" living like the devil incarnate in all the self-destructive ways imaginable . . . and then demanding for healthy living Amish person "B" down the road to pay the tab when the chikens come home to roost.

alive. Universal Healthcare is something we all should fear, this government is no good at setting up anything that would ever address all the needs of everyone involved. I look at families today with their two jobs, daycare and Mc Donalds...their two cars and two insurance bills etc..and wonder if they give a thought as to their healthcare. Home mortage they can't afford, etc. I doubt they do, but I will bet they will vote for Universal Healthcare so they don't need to pay another bill..and thats scary to

Excellent points. Going to go back and star your post.

I no longer think Government in our era is any hint of a Constitutional form of public SERVANTS.

Public traitorous tyrants and theives is much more accurate. God have mercy on us. I'd prefer for them as individuals to repent and make Heaven. But on the whole I maybe too largely hope they get what's coming to them sooner than later. They are rotten and too many rank evil to the core. They are hardly worthy to be called human, much less Americans.

Originally posted by carewemust
As a +20 year health/life insurance broker, I can assure everyone that
my clients who have their own (individual or company sponsored) health
insurance get far better care than those who are on government
managed plans. (Medicaid, Veterans Admin, KidCare, etc.). . . .

Oh, I suspect your examples of horror stories would add to our understanding and knowledge anyway. But, as you wish, of course.

From experience, I'd say that the best options are:
1. Do some research into how to live healthy, thereby keeping yourself
and your family away from the medical system. Thankfully, more and
more people are realizing that this is indeed possible.
2. Write to your local senators/congressmen and ask that they put in
place a subsidy system to help middle class people afford health insurance
and that no-one can be denied coverage due to pre-existing conditions.
3. Raise the deductible on your health insurance to the $5,000 to $10,000
range without Doctor Visit Co-pays. Put the substantial savings into a
Health Savings Account (HSA) at your local bank. Use those tax-favored
savings to pay your deductible for the once-in-awhile medical episode.

-CareWeMust (Chicago)

I think those are EXCELLENT SUGGESTIONS. I think you have added greatly to the discussion. Please keep it up!

What are your suggestions regarding the horrid effects of the trial lawyers, the AMA, the conglomerate lobbyists and the entrenched blood-sucking greedy corrupt politicians--which would be most of them?


[edit on 1/8/2007 by BO XIAN]

Originally posted by BO XIAN
My personal contacts lead me to believe that these cases are not isolated cases AT ALL.

For every horror story, there are thousands more that never have a problem. That's not the kind of news that sells. Most Canadians love their Universal coverage and most Canadians love to complain - combine the two and you could keep us going for hours. The funny thing is that at the end of the gripefest, if you asked us if we would ever give it up or change to a US-style model, you'd get a big "Heck no!!!".

I think it is one of the cultural difference between the US and Canada.

Originally posted by BO XIAN
Hmmmmm . . . I think there's a fallacy in there somewhere.

should . . .

I've found it useful . . . when considering good/bad; better/worse; best worst . . . should/should not . . . to ask:

1. What's the related goal?
2. What's the criteria/standard of measure that informs me when the goal has been reached?
3. What's the context.

So . . . we are supposed to assent to this should--that all manner of nanny State cradle to grave care SHOULD be free . . . etc.

*cough*

That`s quite a strong reaction to the statement that governments should provide people with eyeglasses or contact lenses if they need them. How can myopia be connected to the type of healthy christian lifestyle you`re on about?

What I do find strange is how you can on one hand rally for a christian lifestyle with everyone looking out for each other`s best interests through mutual sacrifice and then rail against an established social system in which people do exactly that - sacrifice their tax dollars to ensure that everyone is taken care of.



[edit on 1-8-2007 by vox2442]

mod edit, removal of most of a long quoted post

[edit on 1-8-2007 by DontTreadOnMe]

Originally posted by carewemust 3. Raise the deductible on your health insurance to the $5,000 to $10,000 range without Doctor Visit Co-pays.

Well, this tells me everything I need to know....
Let's not forget that any successful public scheme reveals the HMOs as the blood-sucking leeches that they are. It makes them nuts to appear in the light...pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!!!

Secondly, if they can use free trade, etc, to chisel their way into the Canadian system, then there's an immediate 10% growth. Thanks for the offer, folks, but I'll stick with what we have, and nobody with a fistful of right-wing think tank reports is going to make me decide otherwise.

I mean really, have we yet had, on this thread, any Canadian who has said "Jeez, guys, I sure wish our system was just like your American one!. What does that tell you?

Originally posted by vox2442

What I do find strange is how you can on one hand rally for a christian lifestyle with everyone looking out for each other`s best interests through mutual sacrifice and then rail against an established social system in which people do exactly that - sacrifice their tax dollars to ensure that everyone is taken care of.

[edit on 1-8-2007 by vox2442]

Ahhhhhhhhh . . . .

THERE IS A SUPER HIGH PRIORITY EXTREME DIFFERENCE . . . . ONE IS A FREE ASSOCIATION, FREELY CHOSEN COMMITMENT BASED ON FAITH, RESPONSIBILITY, LOVING MUTUAL SUPPORT UNDER GOD.

The other is coerced, demanded, required, manipulated, extorted . . . glorifies a bloated bureaucracy power mongering 'all powerful' control freak heavy handed government . . .

And . . . said government is on a bullet train fast track toward mandatory ID/RECORDS/TRANSACTION CARD computer chipping of humans like so many b**ch dogs . . . wherein "citizen's" behaviors and lives are thoroughly government monitored and controlled, increasingly to the nth degree. . . .

this, of course, alongside a deliberate conscious effort to reduce the world's population to 200,000,000 to 500,000,000 by hook, crook, wars, disease, . . . .

What I find fantastically mind boggling is that anyone would choose the government route knowing as much as has already been outted about the globalist government.

I realize of course, it's all wonderfully benign and "for the children." Just ask Shrillery Klintoon . . . such a sweet politician (already an oxymoron) as saintly and pure as the white witch

--errr--strike that--as the wicked witch of the west times a trillion.

As to the difference between Canadian and USA culture . . . stay tuned . . . the big eraser is out . . . the border is being removed . . . the globalist gears are grinding . . . turning the borders and sovereignty to dust . . . the globalist machine marches Maniacally, Machiavellianly Monsterously on . . .

git on board . . . all ya lil chillun, git on board . . .
/sar

with apologies to the hymn writer.


[edit on 1/8/2007 by BO XIAN]

What does happen to people that really can´t afford healtcare insurance in US. I really would like to know. Was that true what was shown in sicko? ( M. Moore )
If thats true then thats one F´d up system.

And why in the h*** does UHC have to be compared to socialism and even to communism by someone? Patriotic yanks with flags and assault rifles ready to bomb the hell out off USSR do that only, I hope?
Why is it so hard to take best off the both sides?
Have UHC. Everyone has a right to have a healtcare. You pay taxes to your country so you get healtcare. You dont have to sell your house to get treatment to cure you.
For example I had to have an operation to my shoulder because I had dislocated it several times. It wasnt that bad so I was in no horry. I had two options. To go to a public hospital and in to a operation line to wait for my time or go to a private medical center and get the operation done right away. Of course the private medical center would cost more.
So I waited 3 weeks and it cost me about 15€ ( about 20$ ? ) in the public hospital.
What is it so hard to get this kind of solution to US. Only thing that comes to my mind again is the fact of money. Insurance companies want profits and are lobbying as much as they can, and the average Joe suffers while your congressman etc makes big bucks...