Sharon admits blowing up synagoges and to creating terrorism!!

Quite right Archangel.

The League of Nations (then only 32 nations and not including the USA) gave Britain a Mandate to rule in Palestine.
The League of Nations did not create a Jewish state.As you rightly point out Israel was created by the UN in 1948.
In the interim period between 1920 and 1948 Zionist Terrorists(European Jews) launched a vicious campaign of violence against the British and the indigenous Palestinian population.

So it is quite wrong to suggest that in any way the foundation of Israel can be found in the League of Nations Mandate.
It is fair to say,and this is a totally different point,that the Balfour Declaration,which was in part implemented under the Mandate as the basis of British policy,defined the goals of the Zionist Terrorists and encouraged them in their murderous endeavour.

Originally posted by ArchAngel
The League of nations was replaced by the UN before there was an Israel. The British gave the mandate to the UN. They partitioned Palestine into two almost equal halves which were Israel, and Palestine. Today Israel is way past this line.

In fact, Israel's legal claim to the entire area of the former British Mandate has been consistently in accordance with international law.

The Israeli argument can be summarized as follows: The General Assembly partition resolution of November 29, 1947 envisioned the creation of three separate entities when the British Mandate terminated: a Jewish state, an Arab state, and an internationalized Jerusalem.

When that mandate ended on May 15, 1948, only one of the three projected entities � Israel � emerged. On that date, in clear violation of the assembly resolution and of general international law, five Arab countries invaded Israel in an attempt to destroy the nascent Jewish state. At war's end, Israel survived, the Gaza Strip came under Egyptian control, and the West Bank, including east Jerusalem, came under Jordanian control.

Neither Egypt nor Jordan gained any legal title to the areas they conquered since, as the then US ambassador to the UN stated, they were engaged in "aggression." Consequently, at most, both these Arab states were throughout the period 1948-1967 "belligerent occupants," which gave them no title under international law.

Only Britain and Pakistan recognized Jordan's title to the West Bank.

When war erupted on June 5, 1967, Israel expelled the belligerent occupants from the lands they had illegally conquered and thus was in a position to claim title to the whole area vacated by the two aggressor states. Israel clearly had a superior title to that of any other claimant, since it was the only entity legitimately to survive from the 1947-48 era.

This is the basis of Israeli administration of the entire Jerusalem area as confirmed by Knesset laws. Israel never surrendered title over the territory it occupied in 1967 to anyone else and contends that the entire area is a matter for negotiation in a possible permanent settlement of the Arab-Israeli dispute.

Originally posted by ArchAngel
This land was never controled by Israel BEFORE they stole it in the sneak attack of 1967. The people in these lands were not ever represented by Israel, and they still are not today. Liberation would include Israel giving the people the same rights enjoyed by Jewish Israelies.

The land was never controlled by the Palestinian-Arabs either.

Originally posted by ArchAngel
If it was Israel's intent to liberate these people they have failed.

Then you are apparently unaware of the living condition of the Palestinian-Arabs before the land was captured in 1967.

Still no comment on the falsehoods that started this thread?


[Edited on 14-1-2004 by Mycroft]

I'm getting fed up this.It just seems as though you are on a fishing trip.You make claim after claim and when each on is firmly repudiated you move on and make another claim.

Before this last post you claimed that Israel's foundation was based on the League of Nations Mandate.That having been shown to be false you simply move on.This last claim of yours is just a piece of revisionist rubbish.I'm not going to bother answering anymore.You will only come up with more crap to take it's place.

I'll tell you the bottom line on all this, and you can take all your League of Nations and UN edicts (obviously only the ones you like, of course, since every single pro-Israel poster here mentions how the UN helped to create Israel, but somehow now the UN has no relevance when it comes to criticizing Israel about it's ILLEGAL Occupation, funny huh?).

The bottom line is that this is an Illegal Occupation that has gone on for more than 30 years, and an entire culture is being held hostage in a huge open-air prison. No 1967 UN edict or stupid League Of Nations drivel can justify that.

No edict or Knesset boolsheet can justify the slaughter of thousands of Palestinians with state-of-the-art military hardware and an organized army attacking REFUGEE CAMPS.

Nothing can justify it.

It's hilarious how you all use the UN to JUSTIFY the existence of Israel but then when the UN criticizes the IDF for its' MURDERS, you say "Pfah, what the heck does the UN know, they're a bunch of weenies".

Illegal Occupation. Murder. Genocide. Apartheid.

Israel is guilty of ALL of them, and I don't need the UN to tell me that. Why? Because I have a working brain and this thing called morality. Something others seem to be sorely lacking.



jakomo

Which refugee camp slaughter are we discussing? Jenin? Oh right that was the one that happened around the same time humans visited Neptune.

By the way how come no one has really touched on the photos posted that showed that the Palestinians don't want pre-67 borders but in fact their primary vision is the entire state of Israel under them instead? I mean honestly folks, it's on their leader's arm patch. Does that look like a logo saying "we want peace in the pre-67 borders"? To me it looks more like they're stating to the world that they want the whole damn thing.

By the way Arch, thanks for your reply, but you do need to understand that the fact that the temple is no longer standing is highly irrelevant. 1) The remaining wall is considered the holiest site in Judaism. 2) The Jewish people believe that when the Messiah comes that temple will be rebuilt.

I can say with great confidence that no change in ownership of that wall will ever take place.

Djarums: "Which refugee camp slaughter are we discussing? Jenin? Oh right that was the one that happened around the same time humans visited Neptune. ."

Er, just read the news. They just went into another camp this week.

Every time the IDF rolls into a camp with tanks and heavy military ordnance and kills even one innocent Palestinian, I call that murder. Slaughter.

This is the 3rd most powerful military in the world against a country with NOTHING in the way of defenses. S-L-A-U-G-H-T-E-R.

That's what I mean.

Originally posted by John bull 1
I'm getting fed up this.It just seems as though you are on a fishing trip.You make claim after claim and when each on is firmly repudiated you move on and make another claim.

Before this last post you claimed that Israel's foundation was based on the League of Nations Mandate.That having been shown to be false you simply move on.This last claim of yours is just a piece of revisionist rubbish.I'm not going to bother answering anymore.You will only come up with more crap to take it's place.

John, that�s pretty ironic given how this thread started. The revisionism is perpetuated by those who make up or repeat slanderous falsehoods against Sharon.

After WWI, the British administered the Palestine region in what is today Israel, the disputed territories and Jordan under the British Mandate, which is the League of Nations mandate that I speak of. The United Nations creation of Israel was a continuation of this same work.

Originally posted by Jakomo
No edict or Knesset boolsheet can justify the slaughter of thousands of Palestinians with state-of-the-art military hardware and an organized army attacking REFUGEE CAMPS.

Nothing can justify it.

Nothing except the right to self-defense. I agree that Israel should withdraw from the disputed territories and facilitate the creation of another Palestinian-Arab state, but not without the assurance of Israeli security. The creation of this new Palestinian-Arab state will require the participation of the Palestinian-Arabs, which isn�t going to happen so long as they would rather work towards the destruction of Israel than work for the benefit of their own people.

Also, the use of the term �refugee camp� is misleading. A camp implies a temporary residence and evokes an image of a tent city without basic services. This hasn�t been true for a long time. These �camps� are now cities and towns.

Originally posted by Djarums
By the way how come no one has really touched on the photos posted that showed that the Palestinians don't want pre-67 borders but in fact their primary vision is the entire state of Israel under them instead? I mean honestly folks, it's on their leader's arm patch. Does that look like a logo saying "we want peace in the pre-67 borders"? To me it looks more like they're stating to the world that they want the whole damn thing.

Yes, denial is rampant.

Originally posted by Djarums
By the way Arch, thanks for your reply, but you do need to understand that the fact that the temple is no longer standing is highly irrelevant. 1) The remaining wall is considered the holiest site in Judaism. 2) The Jewish people believe that when the Messiah comes that temple will be rebuilt.

Yes, we have a double standard here. Religious and cultural considerations are only important when they are Islamic/Arabic. Only Jews are called upon to make painful sacrifices for peace.

Mycroft: "Nothing except the right to self-defense."

Nope, like I said NOTHING CAN JUSTIFY IT. You can't justify Israel's 30 year Illegal Occupation because of Self-Defense, it's ludicrous and insulting.

Israel is the aggressors, not the defenders. The aggressors have all the weapons, all the power, a cache of chemical and biological weapons, a complete lockdown on foreign press in the Occupied Territories, the power to shut down the entire West Bank and Gaza Strip to civilian traffic, the ability to incarcerate suspects INDEFINITELY and the 3rd most powerful military on the planet!

Explain to me how exactly Israel is the victim here. They hold ALL the cards. They illegally occupy the land. They illegally mete out collective punishment to thousands of Palestinians. They construct a fence that is condemned WORLDWIDE. They fire Hellfire missiles into crowded traffic jams to ASSASSINATE "suspected" militants (as in they act as Judge, Jury and Executioner).

And in response, the Palestinians, a people slowly being eradicated and having all the hope squeezed out of them, sacrifice their LIVES in a totally misguided attempt to fight however they can, using the only weapon they have, themselves. Wrong, yes, but almost the only option available to poor disenfranchised people who have absolutely NO hope. Nobody kills themselves if they believe things are going to get better, it's human nature.

History will judge Sharon VERY harshly. Trust me.

"Also, the use of the term �refugee camp� is misleading. A camp implies a temporary residence and evokes an image of a tent city without basic services. This hasn�t been true for a long time. These �camps� are now cities and towns."

You are absolutely correct, let me amend that.

While the term "refugee camp" implies a temporary residence, in the Palestinian case, these refugee camps are PERMANENT and have existed for 30 years. Tent cities without basic services. These refugee camps have become cities and towns but at their core they are Refugee Camps. "

Or, let's just call a spade a spade and say they are CONCENTRATION CAMPS without the gassing.

Very similar to the Warsaw Ghetto, actually. I'm sure you can see the parallel.

Yes, we have a double standard here. Religious and cultural considerations are only important when they are Islamic/Arabic. Only Jews are called upon to make painful sacrifices for peace.

before anyone replies to this with something stupid like "oh the palestinians make sacrifices to" let me just make sure we stick to the topic here and point out that we are discussing the temple mount and Muslims are not restricted from going there, as would be the case (we all know this) if the Muslims controlled it.

I see it this way gentlemen... for so many years Jews weren't allowed into their site, then they gained control over it. Are you being serious when you think they're gonna just hand over that land like a strip mall? Again consider the differences. One group disrespected the other's site and forbid them from coming to it. The other group set up a special group of people to ensure things were as they should.

Let me be the first to assure you that the Jewish people (both secular and religious) are brought up looking at that site in awe. It ain't going anywhere while there is still a Jew alive on earth.

To think that the holiest site to a group no longer matters because it was destroyed by the Romans is callous and naive. It's not like they walked off you know. Like you said Jak... 3rd most powerful military. Hell will freeze over before they allow that plot of land to be run into the ground again.

Djarums: "Like you said Jak... 3rd most powerful military. Hell will freeze over before they allow that plot of land to be run into the ground again."

Or, more likely, the entire world will just get sick and tired of all this, and while Israel's retarded bodyguard, the US, is engaged in the War On Terror, a bunch of nations will get together and destroy Israel. Or the rest of the world gets together and slaps embargos and trade sanctions up the wazoo on Israel and eventually the US, bankrupted, can no longer give them handouts.

Or the US public goes ape# over the truth about the USS Liberty and aid dires up.

Many many options, yours is the most unlikely of them all.

The only reason that Israel continues to flout international law is the US. Military aid, UN vetoes, etc. Once that ends, so does Israel. You can only go arrogantly pushing people for so long before they rise up.



The death knell for Israel : There were more Jewish immigrants that went to GERMANY last year than went to Israel.

That's the beginning of the end for the State of Israel. Once Jews see GERMANY as a safer place to live than their so-called divinely mandated "Promised Land", it's over.

And that's what's happening now, like it or not. Israel is the singlemost dangerous place on the planet for a Jew to live, and they know it.


jak

Perhaps some of what you're saying is correct but I will stand by my statement due to my personal experience and knowledge when I say that the tract of land that the Wall sits on will remain under Jewish control until every Jew on earth has been exterminated (which wouldn't be such a terrible thing according to some of the "news" sources you guys love to quote). There is no way (call it irrational if you wish) that the Jewish people will give it up and allow it to be desecrated again. I don't know if you are a religious person jak, if you are surely you must understand some of this.

Oh I'd like to add that on a personal note if there was a way to actually have an "internationalized Jerusalem" in which all of the 3 major religions would have full rights and access to their holy sites I don't think anyone would have a problem with that. Unfortunately when one of the groups has become known for crapping on the other groups holy sites this becomes a concern.

I personally would support a plan that guaranteed those rights to all the groups. Would it happen? Probably not but that's just due to both sides irrational demands.

Edit - I don't mean to offend muslims with the above comment but look at the Dome of the Rock in the present time (under Israeli government). I saw it in person and it is absolutely magestic. When compared to how other religions' sites were treated under the ottomans and later under Jordan it really brings tears to the eyes.

[Edited on 1-14-2004 by Djarums]

Which countries were those that you expect to get sick of Israel and gather together to destroy it? The fantastically active group that would rather watch TV than stand up for anything? France? Maybe some Scandanavian countries? Or were you talking about the surrounding nations who proved their ineptness at fighting even before Israel had a real military? Maybe Russia who could start glowing in the dark at any moment because they don't know where in the hell their nukes are? Or China who's economy is about to collapse? There is of course a reason why (not to stab at the Euro-ego) the USA is considered the last superpower.

(I am SO getting flamed for that one lol, hey all in good fun guys)

[Edited on 1-14-2004 by Djarums]

Jakamo, I'd really like to see the source of your dubious claim that more Jews immigrate to Germany than Israel.

And BTW, the odd of nations ganging up on Israel and destroying it over the plight of the Palestinians alone is laughable. They have already tried it multiple times - they are tired of getting their a$$es kicked and losing more of their territory. Believe it or not, people like the Egyptians and Jordanians mostly see the Palestinians as major pains-in-the-a$$es. They are sympathetic and have no love for the Israelis, but they are smart enough to know that the Palestinians are throwing fuel on the fire and are beholden to Arafat.

If you want to see true suffering - go to Africa. Tens of thousands dying every day due to disease, war, tyranny, poverty and hunger. Comparitavely speaking, the Palestinians are well off. They would be alot better of if they realized that there is no way in Hell that they are moving the Israelis.

BTW, the term "illegal occupation" kills me. According to what laws? National boudaries are rarely decided by lawyers, judges and plaintiffs. More likely, they are decided by the victors and the vanquished. Get a grip on reality. And unless the majority of the world's history books are written by the Arab extremists, I highly doubt that the plight of the Palestinians will go down as a more important even than, lets say, the Yom Kippur War, or the Six Day War, or over "Suicide Bombers", or over "PLO Terrorists".....you get my drift?

One last thing....I actually have been to Israel (1986 - Haifa and Tel Aviv, while in the USN). The year that many Navy shipmates were murdered in cold blood by Arab terrorists. The people of Israel made me feel welcome and safe. I doubt I would have gotten the same reception in Damascus, Beirut, or Triploi.

Originally posted by Jakomo
Or, more likely, the entire world will just get sick and tired of all this, and while Israel's retarded bodyguard, the US, is engaged in the War On Terror, a bunch of nations will get together and destroy Israel.

Wow, Jakomo, do you realize what you just said?

On one hand you ridicule Israel�s need for self-defense, then you turn around and say that Israel would be destroyed if only the U.S. didn�t protect it.

Which leads us to another justification of Israel holding the West Bank. Those radar installations along the Jordan River are critical for early warning, and the territory itself adds strategic depth to the country itself. Without the West Bank, Israel is less than 10 miles across at it�s most narrow point.

www.upi.com...

"WASHINGTON, June 5 (UPI) -- The turbulent relationship between Jews and Germany is taking yet another stunning turn. Seventy years after Hitler's ascendance to power and 60 years after the Holocaust, more Jews are flooding into Germany than into any other country, Israel included.

This makes Germany the one nation with the fastest-growing Jewish community in the world. Ironically, one reason for this state of affairs is the anti-Semitism in their countries of origin, chiefly successor states of the former Soviet Union, Julius H. Schoeps, head of the Moses Mendelssohn Center for European-Jewish Studies in Potsdam, told United Press International Thursday.

"Of course there are other reasons as well, such as economic considerations and the chance to give their children a better education," Schoeps allowed. "Moreover, they see Germany as a 'safe country.'"

As a result of this accelerating migration, the Jewish population in Germany has swollen from 33,000 in 1990, the year of that nation's reunification, to 200,000 today, according to Schoeps. Before World War II more than half a million Jews lived in that country. At the end of the war there were only 15,000 left.

But in 2002, 19,262 Jews from the former Soviet Commonwealth of Independent States settled in Germany, compared with 18,878 who went to Israel and fewer than 10,000 who were admitted into the United States. German consulates in CIS cities report that 70,000 more Jews have already applied for resettlement visas. In addition, thousands of Israelis, whose parents had fled to Palestine in the Nazi years, are now claiming German passports to which they are entitled by German law."


And FYI the Occupation is illegal based on INTERNATIONAL LAW. You don't occupy foreign soil for 30 years.

It's all in the Fourth Geneva Convention (1949), relating to the protection of civilians in time of war, to which Israel is a party. The 4th convention is a cornerstone of international humanitarian law.

It sets basic legal standards for the treatment of civilians during armed conflict or under occupation. It bans indiscriminate use of force against civilians, wanton destruction of property, torture, collective punishment, the annexation of occupied territory, and the establishment of settlements or colonies on occupied land. It requires that all parties ensure that the convention is respected and that those who commit war crimes are legally brought to justice on it (like in the Hague).

Israel is guilty of all of these in the last 30 years. Some in the last 30 minutes, I'd imagine.

And it's morally objectionable, obviously, to those of us who don't believe in the ultimate supremacy of the jewish race, but rather that silly "all men created equal" thingy.


jakomo

ps Mycroft, I'm saying the world would possibly rise up and destroy Israel not because they're Jewish, but because they're fargin arseholes.



[Edited on 14-1-2004 by Jakomo]

"u.s.s liberty-----lavon affair"....the name of the topic seems to be supported by their previous actions.

Uh, I definitely think you missed something somewhere over the course of this discussion. Btw where did the liberty issue come in?

If you walked in a bit late, this did start out as a conversation about casseopia and their disregard for honesty in running an article that even the interviewer himself admitted was attributed to the wrong person.

So if you're discussing the topic of this thread (which it looks like you are) please take into account that "Sharon" neither said, nor has done anything of the sort. Numerous sources will support that.

So if your reference to the liberty was to support a theory that sharon creates terrorism, sorry but you missed something here.

Originally posted by Djarums

If you walked in a bit late, this did start out as a conversation about casseopia and their disregard for honesty in running an article that even the interviewer himself admitted was attributed to the wrong person.

That seems to be what this thread turned into..not what it started out as...

Same could be said if Israel wiped the Palestinian's off the face of the map, eh Jak?

No, certainly you wouldn't give a rat's arse if Israel and Jews were eradicated....that would serve alot of Human Rights organizations 'agendas' wouldn't it? And you said you worked for which one again, and continue to 'vomit' and make the comments you make here?!



regards
seekerof

[Edited on 14-1-2004 by Seekerof]