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UK Pulls Out Of N. Ireland, Mostly

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posted on Aug, 1 2007 @ 05:01 PM
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Originally posted by Rockpuck
The Brits are occupants of Ireland, the Island is not theirs, it is the Irish, and for centuries the Brits have suppressed the Irish, countless atrocities occurred over this timespan, countless, from inflicted famines, suppression by totalitarian kings, the list is extensive, North Ireland is apart of the Island, originally Irish occupied by people from the isle of Britain they claim the lands for them selves.. the Irish nationalist want their land back, a perfectly natural claim that cannot be denied by anyone .. except Brits for the reasons listed above....


I know your post was a rebuttal for another, but I feel I have a point here.

seeing as your location is listed as USA (somewhere) would you consider upping and leaving because others occupied that land before? I very much doubt it, a few yheah, but everyone else and their dog?? nope.

Who do you think Brits are? don't really want to bring the whole "what, you mean there are different types of Muslims - and they don't get along, why was I not informed" issue up, but like your nation, we are a mongrel race, they don't call us Anglo Saxons for nothing


When you say the people of Ireland were there before please remember the people of Scotland, Wales, Cornwall Hell most places were also here before. Our capital city, London is a roman name. Londinium.

So we (the Brits) are occupying Ireland in the same way you occupy err lets say Manhattan island - give it back, or get of your high horse.

Edit to add: The high horse thing is a sweeping comment to all the US, sorry but I feel it's deserved. (you're still my favorite 'other' country ATM, I'm shallow like that, must be all the TV sent over
)

[edit on 1/8/2007 by Now_Then]




posted on Aug, 1 2007 @ 05:45 PM
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Originally posted by Now_Then
seeing as your location is listed as USA (somewhere) would you consider upping and leaving because others occupied that land before? I very much doubt it, a few yheah, but everyone else and their dog?? nope.

Who do you think Brits are? don't really want to bring the whole "what, you mean there are different types of Muslims - and they don't get along, why was I not informed" issue up, but like your nation, we are a mongrel race, they don't call us Anglo Saxons for nothing


When you say the people of Ireland were there before please remember the people of Scotland, Wales, Cornwall Hell most places were also here before. Our capital city, London is a roman name. Londinium.

So we (the Brits) are occupying Ireland in the same way you occupy err lets say Manhattan island - give it back, or get of your high horse.

Edit to add: The high horse thing is a sweeping comment to all the US, sorry but I feel it's deserved. (you're still my favorite 'other' country ATM, I'm shallow like that, must be all the TV sent over
)


Give Manhattan back to whom? I'm certain that someone like yourself could see the absurdity of such a statement. Manhattan was bought from the natives by the Dutch, later conquered by the British, and finally made, as part of New York, independent after the American Revolutionary War. New York ratified the Articles of Confederation and, not long after, the Constitution of the United States, making it a U.S. state, as it has remained for over two hundred years. Even if anyone chose to entertain such a silly and childish notion, who would we give it back to?

The inhabitants of Manhattan are Americans - citizens of the United States, of course excluding those who are international visitors in some way or another. They aren't asking for independence. And they're not fighting and dying for it either, much unlike those of North Ireland.

Ireland is, well, still Irish. This lies in direct contrast to the modern United States, which is basically more European than Native American. The colonists, not much unlike the people of North Ireland, felt that Britain was abusive and ignorant to the needs of the American colonies. So they revolted, they won, and the rest is history - a history I am grateful to God for every day.

The right to self rule is just that - a natural right. If they feel that it is necessary to achieve independence, and that advantageous to them to sever ties with what they perceive as a foreign, controlling entity, then it is their right to do just that. And nether France, the United States, nor even England can rightfully dictate or do as much as to influence this desire for sovereignty.

But no one can say it better than the Founding Fathers of my nation, to most of whom I owe my freedom and prosperity. So I can quote our Declaration of Independence.


When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.


[edit on 1-8-2007 by Johnmike]



posted on Aug, 1 2007 @ 05:46 PM
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Rock, I must first of all thank you for a well thought out, articulated and thought provoking reply. I feel you have made some valid points about the nature of terrorism and war in general.

I mentioned some of the actions of the honourable US Army as an attempt to point out that the actions of the British Army on Bloody Sunday are by no way unique and that I suspect that the armed forces of most, if not all, countries have committed acts that we are not proud of.

The British are occupants in ireland, but how far back do we go? We are where we are and the simple fact of the matter is that the majority of people living in Northern Ireland have been living there for generations now, it is now their land and they want to remain part of the British Union. If Native Indians commenced an indiscriminate bombing campaign in the US killing numerous innocent american citizens of all races and creeds, would this be acceptable? It was the actions of ancestors of current US citizens that has resulted in them being more or less confined to reservations, suffering from chronic unemployment etc. This is not intended as a criticism of US history / actions etc; again, we are where we are and it's the actions that we take now to redress the situation that is important.

As a matter for consideration I must point out that all my grandparents were Southern Irish and I was raised a Catholic, allthough I personally abhor all organised religion in any shape or form. I was raised in an area of England which is very predominantly Protestant and I am English, not Irish English, (yes I know it sounds stupid but anymore so than Irish American? - surely one or the other).
I mention this merely to point out that I am very much aware of the cause which the IRA were allegedly fighting for.
I am also no great lover of any of the traditional British political party's, monarchy, globalisation etc but I refuse to be labelled.
However, I absolutely refuse to believe that we should apologise for what happened in the past. IMO, it is folly to judge the actions of yesterday by the morals and standards of today. But, we do need to understand the reasons.

I know lots of Northern Irish people from both sides of the divide and almost to a man they condemned the actions of the IRA, INLA, UVF, UDA etc. Most left Northern Ireland for various sectarian reasons and tell quite horrific stories of what can only be called gangsterism.

The para militaries on both sides were not representative of the majority opinion of even their own communities and their only concern was to exert their power and control over the majority by committing acts of terrorism and brutality on innocent victims and their own.
A stated aim of The IRA was to impose a Socialist government on a United Ireland, again something that was not representative of the wishes of the majority.

The Troubles long ceased being about religous, political or national ideals but became something akin to a Mafia war more concerned with drug deailng, protection rackets and arms dealing. The leaders on both sides were nothing more than criminals who used idealogy to further their own financial and political aims. I suspect it is little different anywhere else in the world where political, religous or national strife is occuring.

Again, I can only commend those who have worked so hard to improve the situation in Northern Ireland but fear it will take generations to heal all the wounds.

I accept that not everything in this world is simply black or white, right or wrong and that innocents unfortunately will die. That doesn't mean that I have to like it and not speak out against it.



posted on Aug, 1 2007 @ 06:07 PM
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Why don't the english give back irland their land?



posted on Aug, 1 2007 @ 06:19 PM
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Originally posted by pepsi78
Why don't the english give back irland their land?


It's not Irish land to give back.

The majority of the population of Northern Ireland wants to remain part of the Union.



posted on Aug, 1 2007 @ 06:57 PM
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I think the people of Northern Ireland are quite happy the way things are now , all political parties from both sides are in government together , the terrorists campaigns from the paramilitaries seem to be done with apart from a few disgruntled ex IRA thugs who are still trying to kill and maim.

Belfast is now a busy city centre with a thriving night life compared to what it was during the troubles were the city centre was totally deserted at around 5 30 and basically completely closed off to try and stop car bombs being left in it.



posted on Aug, 2 2007 @ 06:36 PM
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1. Great, the territory isn’t hostile anymore, the militants don’t pose a threat as they did before which required the army there. As they have been disarmed

So putting the police force in charge is the most sensible thing to have done as it also shows that all hostile actions have ceased.
And those militants that are still armed can easily be taken on by regular police forces.

2. If the situation should somehow become inflamed and get worse it would only take a matter of hours to send forces in

3. If the people of NI want to be independent or want to join the rest of Ireland
They can easily ask for it and get it like Tokyo.

So I don’t see how we are occupying the territory.

edit:
spell error

[edit on 2-8-2007 by bodrul]



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