Ok.. Don Wahn created a post saying who created god.. well if you are sitting there gaffing at it saying 'pah - god doesn't exist' then think about the origin of our universe from the big bang.

Look at the size of the universe.. it is immense. Now if there was a big bang it would have started from a single piece of matter or maybe two colliding (in all that space). My question is.. where did they come from? How long had they been there? If whatever 'banged' had beeen there for eons then what caused it to suddenly explode. Imagine how much matter there wouldhave had to have been? incomprehensible.

Time began when the big bang occured right? So what was this period before.. what was in it? Where the hell did it all come from?

We are missing something huge here. Personally I don't believe either the religious or the scientific theories.. does anyone have any alternatives?

Originally posted by fiftyfifty
Time began when the big bang occured right? So what was this period before.. what was in it? Where the hell did it all come from?

There is no period "before" when time began (the big bang). In the same way that there is no "beyond" the edge of existence. And so on.

Originally posted by discomfit

Originally posted by fiftyfifty
Time began when the big bang occured right? So what was this period before.. what was in it? Where the hell did it all come from?

There is no period "before" when time began (the big bang). In the same way that there is no "beyond" the edge of existence. And so on.

I don't understand what you mean by that discomfit. Beyond the edge of existence?

There must have been a before for the creation of the elements that created the big bang. It can't have been one minute nothing... then a big flash and a universe was born... something had to be there in the first place.

We are still to locate sufficient matter in the universe to indicate the apparent expansion will eventually reverse and all the galaxies collapse back into a single point perhaps by all the black holes combining into one capable of compressing all matter to some point of critical mass which repeats the cycle again with a massive 'big bang' and all creation is repeated subject to the random laws of chaos.

The Vedic writings in sanskrit actually give a figure for 1 brahma cycle (the time between big bangs) as being 311,040,000,000,000 earth years and places us at about midway in the current cycle.

We are identifying more 'dark matter' all the time as the gravitational 'glue' that holds the galaxies together.

[QUOTE]
The life span of Brahma is identical with the duration of the universe. This time span, called a maha-kalpa, is also the duration of one breathing in and out of Maha-Vishnu, the Personality of Godhead. Maha-Vishnu lies down within the ocean of causality and sleeps. He is eternal, and He dreams the material world in His cosmic slumber. When He exhales, all the universes emanate from the pores of His skin, and a Brahma is born within each universe. When He inhales, Brahma dies, and He sucks the universes into His mouth and destroys them. With each exhalation, the entire process starts anew. This cycle goes on eternally and is therefore also called eternal time.
[/QUOTE]

As always, you will get people banging around the bush with questions like these. Science just can't admit defeat when it comes to the big bang, or just accept the fact that they can not prove one shred of their claims. All known laws of physics break down when trying to compute the first nanoseconds of the big bang.

So how did "everything" explode from out of nothing, from nothing?.. and why?

The only way of reaching some sort of answer is if you accept that there is a driving force, an intelligence, an order behind everything. For me, that is simply "consciousness". God = The sum of all consciousness. And everything is consciousness, me, you, the computer im using etc..

Big Bang = Birth of Consciousness into this Universe

Spirit came first, matter comes afterwards.

i may have this somewhat contorted, but what i understand of the
Big Bang Event... is that the Bang was the release of infinite Energy


as that energy 'de-composed' , several processes caused that energy
turn into the 'matter' we see in the observable universe.

the theoretical physicists will dazzle you with the exotic processes
most of which i can't wrap my mind around,

If you look at M theories explanation it says that two 'membranes' collided.
Where they toutched, a plasma was created which originally behaved more like a liquid than anything else, it the expaned at an exponential rate from the size of a grapefruit to the size of a galaxy in a matter of milli-seconds - In the heat of the plasma the basic compounds like carbon were created etc...... (this was after the matter / anti-matter fight)

One other theroy says that our universe is actually a black hole and that we are actually in the event horizon (find this a little hard to believe though as we would be travelling towards the singularity).

A little off topic.... but since you cant talk about the universe without talking about gravity in some way.......here is my take on gravity.

I think that the gravaton partical does exist, but it exists on a dimention that we cannot interact with. The actual strength of the gravaton is huge, but its strength is shared out over all the multiple dimensions making its actual effect on a single universe negligible.

No idea if this theroy has been written about else where ... but i think its an interesting idea. !

There are some interesting theories there. skepticrus.. if the two membranes collided, where did these membranes come from?

The whole thing just scrambles my mind. Im no expert on anything like this but it is something that interests me. I just think that we are perceiving things on totally the wrong scale.

I think of space being 'infinitum' there are bodies of matter so immensly huge we could not even imagine and things existing at an infinitely small size. how big is an average human.. what is 5ft10 in comparison to the universe.. or the multiverse? Nothing.

This.. my brain can handle.. but where did it come from?

The fact that we cannot even see the centre of our own galaxy makes me wonder what else is hidden out there. (sort of off topic now) So yeh.. where DID all this energy come from?

Hi fiftyfifty from notts is see, im from notts to, nice to see someone else from the uk on here.

Anyway, membranes - a lot of people have tried to describe them, but each one would require some kinda interaction with its environment meaning that it must exists in some kind of form event if its on a highter dimention. remember not even empty space is empty, its a soup of particles. membranes theroy was only created to try to unify string theroy which only describes 12 other dimentions (including the 4 we know of)

If we were to take quantum theroy, If a partical only becomes stateful if measued, and if the membranes were quantum objects of some kind ... then you could say that someone must have observed them in order for them to conform to the state that we observer today as our own universe !

And if your minds not melted yet with that then consider ......

IS the universe actually a big place or is it a pretty small place. Some scientists think that its possible that at some point we will see a reflection of our own galaxy at different points in the sky, this would mean that the universe has form meaning that its not infinate.


Sorry if this went a little off topic ......

Originally posted by fiftyfifty
This.. my brain can handle.. but where did it come from?

That is what science can never answer, because the truth does not exist out there, sepereate from the observer. The observer is the truth. Consciousness is the truth.

The only way for reality to exist is if it's conscious. There has to be borders to the entire creation of reality at some point. It doesn't matter how complicated you make it through String theory etc, which is what it's trying to do (confuse), eventually you still have to try and answer the question of WHY its all here, and HOW. Think of reality as a fractal, and there you have your answer. An infinite creation based on mathematics/geometry, but ultimately needs the observer (motion in this case) to observe the infiniteness, otherwise it remains as "non-existence"/no creation.

Now, think of a 3D fractal, which your a part of, one where each piece contains the whole (holographic). Thats the truth. And science can never touch that because it can not measure or calculate the process of conscious creation.

My question is.. where did they come from? How long had they been there? If whatever 'banged' had beeen there for eons then what caused it to suddenly explode. Imagine how much matter there wouldhave had to have been? incomprehensible.

M theory says our universe came into existence when 2 membranes hit each other, releasing an enormous amount of energy and made the singularity that spawned the universe into it's own space. These membranes probably hit each other every so often producing new universes.

These membranes are supposedly floating in a higher dimension. But that only makes us ask the same question again, where did the membranes come from?

Science just can't admit defeat when it comes to the big bang, or just accept the fact that they can not prove one shred of their claims.

I'm sure you know better..

So how did "everything" explode from out of nothing, from nothing?.. and why?

The big bang was not Ex Nihilo creation.

The only way of reaching some sort of answer is if you accept that there is a driving force, an intelligence, an order behind everything. For me, that is simply "consciousness". God = The sum of all consciousness. And everything is consciousness, me, you, the computer im using etc..

Or to surrender your reason to unfounded superstition when you face something you cannot understand

I am of the opinion that the material universe is a result of the living forms in it separating the real from the virtual by observation, just like the quantum physicists say. The conceptual hurdle you have to get over is the notion of strictly linear causality. That is, to a photon, there's no difference between 13 billion years ago and the day after tomorrow. Our normal understanding and perception of cause and effect doesn't necessarily apply. So the idea that consciousness (all the living things on this planet, and any that might exist in the depths of space) "creating" the universe in reverse -- sometime in the future, or possibly as an ongoing process -- isn't as unlikely as it may first appear.

In other words, you and I created (or are creating) the universe and everything in it by being here to observe it.

Originally posted by DarkSide
Or to surrender your reason to unfounded superstition when you face something you cannot understand

Its not superstition, and it is something everyone can understand, because everyone has the capability too. Its called Sacred Geometry, and its how reality was constructed.

All evidence points back to it, doesn't matter where you start. The human body, DNA, ancient monuments, the masons etc.. all are based upon sacred geometry, and the understanding of why and how it works.

Originally posted by scepticsRus
The actual strength of the gravaton is huge, but its strength is shared out over all the multiple dimensions making its actual effect on a single universe negligible.

No idea if this theroy has been written about else where ... but i think its an interesting idea. !

This actually is a theory on gravity, why gravity is so weak, because it leaks in from other dimension, the 11th, (there are only 11 as I know it,never heard of a 12th) Gravity is the only force that doesn't act like others, for example. You have the entire mass of the earth pulling a paper clip down. But this force can be interrupted by a small magnet.

As for the Big Bang, your M-theory explanation is correct, they say (and this works out mathematically) That there are millions of membranes of all sorts of shapes an sizes all colliding with each other. Which causes the big bang.

Now this doesn't mean GOD or some sort of life above ours doesn't exist. because though we may be able to get back beyond the singularity, it doesn't mean we know how the membranes work and came from.

Some food for thought there.. there are so many different ideas out there its impossible to know which one is nearer the truth.

It's a really complex subject and to be honest a lot of it goes straight over my head lol. I hadn't thought about other dimensions.. i don't know how they would have affected it or been affected BY it. It still doesn't answer the question of where did it come from.. no matter how far you go back there has to be a creator to the creator. Things don't just materialise out of nothingness.. even the particles and dark matter that make up space.


The idea of consciousness being the reality and all that makes some sort of sense and how we as the observers are creating or building the universe by observing it.

You know everyone would think the answer to the question would be complicated, but it isn't. God is outside the realm of time, he made it, the beginning and the end. God is eternal he always was and always is, we are humans we always need something rational to understand, but simply put our brains could not handle the answer of where God came from. He just is, the great "I AM" He is the creator, or else, how could there be nothing when there IS something.

Originally posted by fiftyfifty
The idea of consciousness being the reality and all that makes some sort of sense and how we as the observers are creating or building the universe by observing it.

And how did consciousness come about?
And how come Earth existed before any consciouss being lived on it?

i tend to believe the my created 3d fractal, black hole white hole scenario.
picture a fractal with 1 focus area being our universe, now picture each growth from the main factual is another universe caused by a black hole on the main universe, as the black holes suck in matter new universes are born via white holes ,this is the gateway , the black hole is a rupture with the other end being the birth of a new universe consistently sucking matter out from its parent universe this process repeats and repeats to form the 3d fractal of existence, call it existence reproduction, the parent universe are known as GOD to the offspring universes GOD = FATHER/MOTHER

now thew only things that this dosent explain is, what/who created the 1st universe

[edit on 31-7-2007 by MouldyCrumpet]

So, we have two schools of thought. The scientific one - investigations into the basis and mechanisms behind the universe, all at a very early stage, some ideas and theories (e.g., string theory, cyclic universe etc). No real certainty before Planck time. So, the answer here is we don't know, we are trying to find out.

And the second strand of thought says we have the answer 'goddidit' and/or 'sprituality/consciousness' before all. These tend to be viewed as complete answers. No further study required, nor real evidence.

Hmmm.

[edit on 31-7-2007 by melatonin]