We’ll Have Two Suns 5 years From Now! The Approaching Catastrophe?

The subject was in the attention of the astronomers for more than 70 years when disturbances in the orbit of Neptune and Uranus were found. Then we found Pluto , but this did not explain the disturbance in the orbit of the 2 large planets. There could be a second "star" - but if so , it must be larger than Jupiter and smaller than 1/10 of our sun .. only 5 years to go and we will see

Wouldn't an object of that much mass orbiting our sun (therefore gravitationally interacting with it) cause noticable variations in the orbits of the planets which have insignificant mass by comparison?

Our sun's mass represents something like 99.9% of the total mass of the solar system so another body of similar mass in proximity would have wiped out the whole system eons ago if it existed.

I'll just carry on life as per normal I think

Originally posted by Pilgrum
Wouldn't an object of that much mass orbiting our sun (therefore gravitationally interacting with it) cause noticable variations in the orbits of the planets which have insignificant mass by comparison?

That's exactly what sty said in his post, above:

The subject was in the attention of the astronomers for more than 70 years when disturbances in the orbit of Neptune and Uranus were found. Then we found Pluto , but this did not explain the disturbance in the orbit of the 2 large planets.

Hope that answers your question!

Cheers!

[edit on 5-8-2007 by mikesingh]

I have been telling everyone I know that Jupiter is going to blow up...and they all laugh at me...well we'll who'll be laughing in FIVE years....and -omg- in five years it will be 2012! holy hamsters!

Originally posted by mikesingh
Suppose it is a twin that has an extremely elliptical orbit, with an apogee that takes it far out of the Solar System? It could now be heading back!

And Hubble never caught sight of this?

Originally posted by blowfishdl
And Hubble never caught sight of this?

Do we know its brightness? Can it be picked up in the visible spectrum? Probably the reason why Hubble couldn't catch it?

OR, they have, but don't want to admit it publicly as it would probably cause mass hysteria and a break down of law and order and a global economic collapse. And that would be disastrous to say the least.

With the various space-based telescopes working in the UV, XRay, IR and visible spectra I can't believe something like this wouldn't have been discovered long ago. Also, given the vast numbers of scientists working these platforms I find it unlikely that they could keep the lid on something as significant as this.

The Nemesis theory relies on a second star orbiting the sun at a distance of a few light years. The idea being that this stars elliptical path keeps it far enough away to have a minor impact on the solar system. However, at its nearest apogy, it would disrupt the ort cloud (the ring of comets that surrounds our solar system) and send comets careening across the planetary paths like balls on a pool table. If you can get your hands on the book, its quite an interesting read. Here is a link to Dr. Robert Muller's website (he wrote the book).

A quick look at Muller's study of the periodicity of mass extinctions indicates that, if his hypothesis is correct, we're in for a long wait - like 14 million years give or take a few.

Does this mean I can now confidently make appointments for after 2012

Interesting topic I came across this on Space.com

"Since Clyde Tombaugh discovered Pluto in 1930, astronomers have searched in vain for a tenth planet.

The main justification for the search was made when discrepancies in the predicted positions of the outer planets Uranus and Neptune kept cropping up with alarming regularity.

Uranus has completed over two and a half orbits since its discovery in 1741, and Neptune, discovered in 1846, has completed almost one full circuit. Both planets should have accurately determined orbits by now. And yet, variations in their predicted positions, called residuals, persist.

Critics, most prominent among them, British astronomer Dr. Brian Marsden with the International Astronomical Union, say that inadvertent data error is the real culprit behind the residuals, not a missing planet. In fact, says Dr. Marsden, Planet X is not a scientific problem as much as it is a psychological problem.

Nevertheless, some astronomers believe there may as yet be something we don't know about our own solar system -- an undiscovered planet, or feeble star, a million times further away than Pluto. The justification for their belief stems from an apparent orderly arrangement of certain comets in the sky."

Well all I have to say is if this is true then this could be the cause of the sun going dark in the Bible at the return of Jesus. The Bible says in:

Matthew 24:29 "But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken...

Luke 21:25 "And there will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and upon the earth dismay among nations, in perplexity at the roaring of the sea and the waves,
21:26 men fainting from fear and the expectation of the things which are coming upon the world; for the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

Yes the sun turning black in the Bible could be an eclipse...My theory is something greater will cause it to go dark, like another sun or planet coming in front of it...Just my two cents...

[edit on 7-8-2007 by wrangell76]

Pluto was recently de-classified as a planet and plenty of 'Kuiper Belt' objects (approx twice the distance from the sun as Pluto) approaching it's size have been detected to date. So I guess having one of those knocked out of orbit would pose a significant risk if something large enough were to penetrate the fringe of the solar system.

If something on this scale was going to happen I'd prefer to be at ground zero rather than just outside it.

A sun getting sucked into a black hole elsewhere in the Galaxy and popping out of the other end (white hole) somewhere near to our solar system??

That IMO is the only possible way a sun could 'sneak' up on us with such little time to detect it. The nearest star currently is 5 light years away me thinks. Possibly a brown dwarf is nearer I don't know.

I like the idea of a gas giant igniting - that would be way cool! Reminds me of the The Lucifer Project there has been a good discussion on that here on ATS a while ago.

But igniting a gas giant would not have a terrible effect on earth, No massive gravity change cos the new star would start off with the same mass as the prev planet, we would just have a big bright dot in the sky - prob visible during day time.

Originally posted by mikesingh
Suppose it is a twin that has an extremely elliptical orbit, with an apogee that takes it far out of the Solar System? It could now be heading back!

Binary systems rotate around a fixed point of gravity. A good example is the Earth-Moon system, where both planets rotate around a point of gravity just outside the Earth. The Moon doesn't zoom in at us like an errant and avenging comet.

So no. There's no "twin." A twin sun would be the brightest thing in the sky besides our sun -- even if it was beyond the Oort cloud. It couldn't hide from us any more than the constellation of Orion can hide from us.

As to the "Kolbrin Bible" -- Mike, the whole thing is a fraud. I'm quite familiar with ancient Egyptian texts, and there's no such thing as "the text of the bronzebook" -- at least, not that exists beyond what Greg Jenner fabricated. By the way -- no AE inscription or text confirms any part of the Bible or the Jews' history in Egypt. There are a few texts in Hebrew that are written using Egyptian hieroglyphics, but these are actually magical formulas to curse snakes and keep them away from the person wearing the amulet.

Nor was there a Celtic "Coelbook." At the time Jenner claims the Phoenecian Christians were sneaking copies of the (nonexistant) "bronzebook" to the Celtic priests, Britain was completely pagan and the sacred knowledge was held only by druids... who were illiterate. They resisted efforts to have them write down their knowledge and the ONLY ancient texts we have about what they know came from the few Romans who befriended them.

They actually didn't begin writing things down themselves until about 300 AD, when the Ogham script was developed. The gospels from that time are copies of our standard Bible gospels.

Originally posted by Pilgrum
A quick look at Muller's study of the periodicity of mass extinctions indicates that, if his hypothesis is correct, we're in for a long wait - like 14 million years give or take a few.

Does this mean I can now confidently make appointments for after 2012

Yup. And after 2032 as well.

Originally posted by Byrd

Originally posted by mikesingh
Suppose it is a twin that has an extremely elliptical orbit, with an apogee that takes it far out of the Solar System? It could now be heading back!

Binary systems rotate around a fixed point of gravity. A good example is the Earth-Moon system, where both planets rotate around a point of gravity just outside the Earth. The Moon doesn't zoom in at us like an errant and avenging comet.

So no. There's no "twin." A twin sun would be the brightest thing in the sky besides our sun -- even if it was beyond the Oort cloud. It couldn't hide from us any more than the constellation of Orion can hide from us.

Byrd, you do make me chuckle with your definitive "I know it all" attitude.

A binary system doesn't have to be "stable", like the Earth-Moon system where they twirl nicely around each other.

For example, below is a gif image of one example of a binary system where the two objects do indeed "zoom" in at each other. It all depends on the masses involved as to what kind of orbits you get. Many different variations exist. Some are self destructive and will result in one star "eating" the other.




Now, as for your assertion that a second sun is "impossible", because we would have seen it. Well, you've willfully ignored alot of posts in this thread pertaining to a brown dwarf. There is also the possibility of the much vaunted dark matter being involved.

A brown dwarf, on a highly elliptical orbit that also was way above the ecliptic would be hard to spot until it came pretty close. Depending on it's angle to the sun, it might well be invisible to us.

Brown Dwarfs, because of their relatively small emissions, are pretty tricky to spot and many have only been seen by their interaction with other stellar objects.

Some may, on first glance, appear like a large gas giant. Whilst we can spot these in other star systems, this is by observation of their interaction rather than a direct sighting.

Just writing it off because, in your opinion, it's impossible, is a bit presumptuous.

i don't know if this has been said, but i think i need to inject something to think about here. i did see a post saying that if there were a 2nd sun in our system that we'd certainly know about it. indeed. if you believe otherwise then you need to pick up a 1st grade science book. someone added that it could be currently outside our system heading back in. to that i have to ask this: how long does it take for one of our probes to reach the edge of the solar system? i don't want to look it up but i believe it's on the order of decades. that means any object coming into our system from that outside would have to be traveling at incredible speed and would most certainly fly right past us at that speed. nothing in your theory of a 2nd sun holds up with even the slightest bit of logical thought.

Originally posted by an0maly33
i don't know if this has been said, but i think i need to inject something to think about here. i did see a post saying that if there were a 2nd sun in our system that we'd certainly know about it. indeed. if you believe otherwise then you need to pick up a 1st grade science book.

I have science books from school that have many pages of stuff that has since been proven wrong. We do not know everything.

Besides, I'm not here to sell this theory nor do I believe it whole heartedly, I'm just not debunking from the off just because it conflicts with what you have been TOLD by someone else. The idea has merit.

Originally posted by an0maly33
someone added that it could be currently outside our system heading back in. to that i have to ask this: how long does it take for one of our probes to reach the edge of the solar system? i don't want to look it up but i believe it's on the order of decades.

And compared to stellar objects, they are pitifully slow. many, if not all, probes need to be carefully aimed, with precise measurements and launched to exact windows to ensure they reach their objective, otherwise they will simply not catch the planet they are after. If our probes were that fast, we wouldn't need to do that.

Originally posted by an0maly33
that means any object coming into our system from that outside would have to be traveling at incredible speed and would most certainly fly right past us at that speed. nothing in your theory of a 2nd sun holds up with even the slightest bit of logical thought.

Not quite sure what your hinting at there. Of course it would fly past! It's not going to just stop and hang about, is it? It would reach perihelion, then fly back out of the solar system, if indeed it existed.

If you doubt an object can cross interplanetary space quickly, just check out any comet. Hale-Bopp, for example, managed to traverse the distance from Jupiter to perihelion inside of 10 months.

The entire orbit of Hale-Bopp is 4000 years, but the tiny bit of space that is the solar system was not a problem for it. It takes our probes several years to get to Jupiter, just for comparison.

It's all very well you saying "read a 1st grade science book", but you don't seem awfully versed in such things yourself.

And compared to stellar objects, they are pitifully slow. many, if not all, probes need to be carefully aimed, with precise measurements and launched to exact windows to ensure they reach their objective, otherwise they will simply not catch the planet they are after. If our probes were that fast, we wouldn't need to do that.

you are correct in that they have to "slingshot" past other planets to kepe the momentum going. i'll concede.

Not quite sure what your hinting at there. Of course it would fly past! It's not going to just stop and hang about, is it? It would reach perihelion, then fly back out of the solar system, if indeed it existed.

i was hinting to the idea that if it was indeed that fast then it might not be able to hold any kind of relationship with our system.

Not quite sure what your hinting at there. Of course it would fly past! It's not going to just stop and hang about, is it? It would reach perihelion, then fly back out of the solar system, if indeed it existed.

If you doubt an object can cross interplanetary space quickly, just check out any comet. Hale-Bopp, for example, managed to traverse the distance from Jupiter to perihelion inside of 10 months.

The entire orbit of Hale-Bopp is 4000 years, but the tiny bit of space that is the solar system was not a problem for it. It takes our probes several years to get to Jupiter, just for comparison.

i was not aware of hale-bops revolutionary period. this point does throw out my previous point.

instead of looking at the posts i immediately jumped to "second sun?! wtfever!!!!111one11!". there are actually some good posts in here that i shuold have taken the time to look at and i'll be a big boy and admit i shouldn't have been so hasty. =)

It takes our probes several years to get to Jupiter, just for comparison.

New Horizons took 9 hours to get to the Moon and only 13 months to get to Jupiter.

And I don't even think 1st grade has Science books...

Anyway if there's a brown dwarf within a few light years, I'm pretty sure it would have been noticed. They aren't dead hunks of rock. They are hot, active bodies that just don't have enough mass to sustain fusion. They can be seen in infrared, especially if they are close, and may flare x-rays.

If there's something a light year or two out, it would still be well outside our heliosphere. Perhaps it is what is causing the dent in the heliosphere, detected by the Voyager probes.

Either way, there is nothing to justify the speculation that this alleged body is in an orbit that threatens Earth. Certainly not a fictional "scripture".

[edit on 7-8-2007 by apc]