I feel so manipulated. I've spent more time writing about, thinking about--even dreaming about!--these stupid drones than I even want to admit to myself. At this point, if I had the CGI skills, I'd retaliate. I'd start manufacturing drone images and submitting them here, there and everywhere. Merely submitting images wouldn't be perpetrating a hoax when the hoax is already perpetrated. There is no proprietary subject matter. It's the hoaxers' Achilles heal! Not only can new images be manufactured, existing ones can be manipulated. Whatever their game is, we don't have to play. I'd muddy the water, throw a wrench in the hoax machinery.

Have you ever run across a famous ufo photo with the caption or text indicating the photographer is unknown, when in fact the photographer is known? Time and the way information is disseminated over the internet does that. Now consider the drones. We have Chad, his girlfriend, Ty, Raj, Stephen, etc. Mr. and Ms. Anonymous, et al. Never an image imprinted, never an request for credit.

Now consider the remarks of Isaac:

They are available as high resolution scans that I am giving away free, PROVIDED THEY ARE NOT MODIFIED IN ANY WAY AND ARE KEPT TOGETHER ALONG WITH THIS WRITTEN MATERIAL.

Say what? Dictating to whom? Secret identity. "Stolen" materials. Big of him--not! What a lot of unmitigated gall to make any such usage criteria. And of course it was summarily ignored. Look what happened with Saladfingers' CGI recreations. Even when he posted it with the disclaimer that it was a recreation, certain people jumped on it as the latest "evidence" (cough, LMH).

Not only would flooding the internet with drone images not be hoaxing--it would actually be the anti-hoax. Everyone would know there were original images, but over time few would know which they were. The future of the drone hoax would be dim indeed when the hoaxers' submission of new images would simply get thrown in with the latest other hundred or so making the rounds. And I dare say, images submitted with an embarrassing flaw or two might do a lot to derail the hoax express.

Someone's pulling our chains. Why not move right into their turf and spoil whatever plans they've worked so hard to foist on us?

Well you're right, that is the perfect way to discredit a sighting - flood the community with dubious similar objects. But who would it hurt the most? The perpetrators of the original hoax, or the serious UFO researchers who already have to deal with all the hoaxes and the flood of camera phone videos of blurry planes and birds?

If you just ignore it, the hoaxers lose.

Originally posted by mythatsabigprobe
If you just ignore it, the hoaxers lose.

I agree, except C2C and Earthfiles are promoting the hell out of it. Ignoring seems out of the question, so delegitimizing seems a good alternative.

Originally posted by danx
Some of the images would be taken out of context, stripped of the text saying it's a fake, etc creating even more confusion.

My thought is to not submit them with context. Preferably they would create confusion until eventually they'd all be lumped together as hoaxes.

And even worse, I'm pretty some of those images would be used to further discredit the truth movement.

It's already hard enough to get footage and photos of real events nowadays, think of what will happen if the internet gets flooded by fake images.

It's not already? But the drones are different. Their unique design and the methodical way they've been introduced sets them apart from other ufos. In my mind, if it looks like a drone, it's a fake.

I think we spoil their plans by analyzing these images/hoaxes/etc with a fair amount of skepticism, scientific approaches and technical skills.

I agree, but on some level it's perpetuating, and I worry in the future they will inherit some kind of mythology and used to further dupe the ufo community and distract from the real thing. At this point, it's not so much showing they're fake, but finding out who's doing it and why. That's proving elusive.

Originally posted by yuefo
It's not already? But the drones are different. Their unique design and the methodical way they've been introduced sets them apart from other ufos. In my mind, if it looks like a drone, it's a fake.

You can't use that sort of logic because what if there are really some sort of probes/drones out there and someone manages to get a good picture of one?

I agree with you in that as things are right now, it will most likely be labeled a hoax, but if you use that sort of mentality ('its a drone its a fake') and with the flood of fake images, then there would be really no way for anyone to take it seriously.

And if we close that door, so to speak, there's no way to tell how things could have been. Who knows.. it could have been the event needed to spark disclosure.

Of course I'm speculating, but the point I'm trying to make here is, that I think it's wrong (and scientifically flawed) to do research by assumption.

Let's judge each case by case. And let's not add more confusion to the UFO research field just to try to smoke the hoaxers out.

Do it! I have yet to see a member upload a completely original cgi imitation of the drone. People say its cgi then lets make one.

Anyone out there that can do good cgi put your money where your mouth is.
My task to you cgi crowd is to design a completely original drone and i want it hovering above a Walmart. This is for all the cgi claims be empowered.

We don't want a mass flood of images just 1 good one and no cut and paste it has to be a cgi drone fully fledged. If we can't get one together then lets drop the " this can be done in 15 minutes with cgi" crap.

Originally posted by danx
Let's judge each case by case. And let's not add more confusion to the UFO research field just to try to smoke the hoaxers out.

I agree with your comment about research by assumption, but in this case, it isn't much of a leap. If I thought there was any chance we were dealing with real technology/ufos, I'd be the last to advocate what I am. In reference to your comment above, it is exactly that confusion I'm suggesting can be cleared up. So far, we've played by their rules and where has it got us?

This case is unique. Nothing resembles the craft in question. Images are trotted out on schedule. Isaac takes his cue and makes his appearance on center stage with supporting backmatter. The sightings are localized. The conduits are specific (LMH and C2C). It reeks.

What happens when the next crop of images appears? Everyone goes all a flutter, and the real sightings (there have been several significant ones lately) don't receive the attention they deserve.

The drones hoax isn't haphazard. It's being carefully orchestrated. What I'm suggesting is that the hoaxers be put on notice that they can't lead us around by the nose with impunity. They are vulnerable to the same kind of dissembling that they have been dishing out.

Two problems with this:

1) You're probably just going to make the hoaxers happy. It's almost like when people write fanfiction for Harry Potter or something. Yeah, it's crappy and no substitute for the original, but what an ego boost for J.K. Rowling! I'm afraid they'd LOVE to see a bunch of people breaking their backs to produce new images of their designs.

2) As Saladfingers has unintentionally proven, PEOPLE WILL BELIEVE 90% OF THE IMAGES. I'm AMAZED at how many of the cheap, poorly done knockoff copycat images (such as that ridiculous Mr. Smith/Alabama image), as well as Saladfingers' much better, but still not quite perfect images and videos, have convinced people.

The worst thing is, it seems like LMH will believe almost ANYTHING, and will post it to her site and convincing 50k more people that the drones are real, and they're all over the place! Run!

My point is, contribution more garbage will just make this worse. As someone else pointed out, by far the best thing we can do to take the hoaxers' power away is to drop this issue and stop wasting our time talking about it. I really do think that ANY kind of attention this gets is good for them. I think the only thing they're actually worried about is the day that we all just stop caring.

So let's stop caring!

You know, while reading this I had a moment of insight, I hope. Maybe it's wrong, but it covers the reason for the hoax, and exactly the level of frustration that is cropping up more and more.

IF someone knew that these drones, or ones like the pictures we now have, were About to become widespread, what better way to muddy the waters than a preemptive strike?

Get everyone all excited using a near perfect hoax, but with just enough flaws to be caught out. (You could even consider GR somewhat in this camp, and he admitted it as a hoax.) And once the hoax was a widespread idea, complete with proof from some of us and others, any future drones sightings would be labeled as hoax right off the bat.

And that would even be reasonable for the fact that none of the CGI drones look just alike. By having a lot of different looking CGI drones, you cover all the bases for future objects that just resemble a drone.

And a lot of work could be expected by some agency for a preemptive move to avoid panic by the normal citizen when real drones started showing up. It would be a big lie now to cover the "need" to lie in the near future. (And by near future, I mean something up to a year or more from now, because within another few months everyone with any interest in UFOs will have been exposed to this hoax.)

Call it "Drone Craft Inoculation" aimed at the very people that you want to keep from looking too close at these kinds of sightings.

So, on topic now, I'm against the idea. I think every picture, and every story, should get the full treatment. If we give in to the frustration and start reacting, we may be doing exactly what these people want us to do.

Originally posted by alevar
You're probably just going to make the hoaxers happy.

I don't think so. It's carefully orchestrated. Someone with a well laid plan doesn't want an outsider mucking up the works.

I think the only thing they're actually worried about is the day that we all just stop caring. So let's stop caring!

I totally agree, that would be optimal. Unfortunately, it just won't happen. Hence the need for preemptive action. When everyone associates a drone with a fake, the hoaxers' power will be extinguished.

Originally posted by yuefo
When everyone associates a drone with a fake, the hoaxers' power will be extinguished.

Or he'll get a promotion two pay grades up. This idea could backfire.

I understand the desire to lay some "payback" on someone for all the time and effort that's gone into this, but that may be the exact wrong thing to do.

And this really applies to the CGI people. The next drone picture they see, they may just label a hoax without going to all the trouble they did this time.

Originally posted by NGC2736
IF someone knew that these drones, or ones like the pictures we now have, were About to become widespread, what better way to muddy the waters than a preemptive strike?

Call it "Drone Craft Inoculation" aimed at the very people that you want to keep from looking too close at these kinds of sightings.

NG, as usual, you're thinking of every angle. Good one. I'd never considered that possibility. If your hypothesis were correct, and I understand you're not claiming it is, but if it were, then what I'm proposing would be exactly the wrong thing to do.

I guess it's a calculated risk. Although it's an interesting and somewhat plausible concept, I'm skeptical enough to chance it. The central issue here is whether you think it's likely that the government actually has some kind of secret drone project about to be launched that resembles "our" drones. I kind of doubt it, but it's possible. Interesting.

yuefo, one of the things that so many of us have noticed is just how "human" looking these craft are. Looking at one of the pictures, you can almost see how human hands and minds put it together.

Now I'm not much of a believer in the NWO and all of that, but IF I wanted to pull something off, and wanted to be able to operate nationwide, with the risk of being seen by too many people while I got things set in place, there would be no better way to do it.

No, I don't think the NWO is setting America up to put some type of airborn control equipment in place. But this is a strange world we live in, and few things are downright impossible for the human mind to try to accomplish.

Could it be that the Mars Rover saw one and NASA is afraid they're here? Could the military here on earth have seen one and this is the only way they can think of to keep us in the dark? Could this be a new 'Battle craft" being tested and we don't want the other nations to know about it?

There's a lot of possibilities, and no real answers. But I feel sure that a bunch more fake pictures aren't going to help anybody except the hoaxers.

Originally posted by NGC2736
Call it "Drone Craft Inoculation" aimed at the very people that you want to keep from looking too close at these kinds of sightings.

I going to assume you do mean future actual sightings. If anyone would actually back up the sighting with non anonymous reporting, it wouldn't prevent me from believing that the craft is real. What if I saw one? I would know. The question would then be what is the origin.

If there are no more sightings, but the craft is real, then that would be a workable plan that does seem to be succeeding.

Originally posted by roadgravel

Originally posted by NGC2736
Call it "Drone Craft Inoculation" aimed at the very people that you want to keep from looking too close at these kinds of sightings.

I going to assume you do mean future actual sightings. If anyone would actually back up the sighting with non anonymous reporting, it wouldn't prevent me from believing that the craft is real. What if I saw one? I would know. The question would then be what is the origin.

If there are no more sightings, but the craft is real, then that would be a workable plan that does seem to be succeeding.

Yes, I failed in my hast to be clear. I think what we have now are all faked pictures. But it is the reason for doing it that is the real mystery. Some people are looking at some far out reasons, and they may in the end be correct. But I think that if we overlook the possibilities that I have given, we may miss something important.

And in the end, even if the idea of hoaxing the hoaxer works to some degree, it wouldn't deter the next hoaxer, because the new one would think he was smarter than "Isaac". So very little would be gained in the long run.

Originally posted by NGC2736
Could it be that the Mars Rover saw one and NASA is afraid they're here? Could the military here on earth have seen one and this is the only way they can think of to keep us in the dark? Could this be a new 'Battle craft" being tested and we don't want the other nations to know about it?

All possible, I agree.

There's a lot of possibilities, and no real answers. But I feel sure that a bunch more fake pictures aren't going to help anybody except the hoaxers.

I admit my proposition is motivated by frustration. I hate lies. Your comment above is predicated on their intention for the drones to be viewed as fake. What I'm asking myself is, did they intentionally make them unbelievable? I was a skeptic from day one (or two ), mainly because of the alien text, later because of the CGIness of the images and the orchestration of the whole thing. But a lot of people, people who have been looking at this a long time, still believe. I just don't know.

[edit on 7/29/2007 by yuefo]

yuefo, I've been cruising the forums some the last few days, and a lot of people are coming to the position that this is all a hoax. Sure, there will be some that are just born to believe, but a bigger percentage of people are sure the pictures are faked. (A lot of places use ATS as a reference to the CGI end of this. )

And yes, I do think they made them just flawed enough to be found out. I remember 11 11 saying something about how the CGI was good, but then they made such and such stupid error. (I never cared for 11 11s attitude, but he seemed to know his CGI.)

It was like they did a slow painstaking job and then left out a shadow here and there, knowing that ATS, and maybe other sites, would have someone smart enough to catch it.

And I am NOT accusing 11 11 of being anything other than himself, but he could have been a "plant" to make sure we saw the flaws. (Sure, I'm paranoid, I don't mind that label, 'cause it's true. ) I'm sure that someone would have steered us to the fact it was a hoax, if we couldn't figure it out on our own.

And it had to be good enough to get everyone's attention from the start. It couldn't be a really dumb fake and get thrown out in just a couple of days, or it wouldn't get the idea out to enough people that "all drones are a hoax". And it's still going on now, doing the job it was meant to do.

Why would Isaac say he would send more documents MAYBE. Because he left the door open to turn the heat up or down on the hoax as needed to get just the right temp to cook the story. If people believed the story too much, send more info that could be found flawed, so they get the idea it's all a hoax. If the UFO community gives the story the cold shoulder, send them a different tidbit that picks the interest in it being real back up just a notch or two.

Maybe I'm just a devious person at heart, but that's what I would do in that position.

Originally posted by NGC2736
Why would Isaac say he would send more documents MAYBE. Because he left the door open to turn the heat up or down on the hoax as needed to get just the right temp to cook the story.

Another good observation. When I was creating this thread, I revisited the Isaac letter, and that was the part that leaped out at me in a way it didn't on the first reading. I thought, how odd. But I was basically annoyed by it, thinking it was a smug attitude, and I didn't think it through as you have. Yes, it "fits." You're making a lot of sense here, have to admit.

Yuefo my friend..We have all walked down this path. The get back feeling is a natural one. We did get back in greatway buy not buying hook line and sinker (interesting that some photos may have used fishing line). The greatest anti hoax is the tool of reason and experience. Therearesome who have turned things like this into a cult or religion. Maybe thats how some religions started, and the high priests retained control of the villages precisely by maintaining the hoax. If the snake oil saleman has left town along with the trickster shills so be it. We realize that we cannot just trust radio and particularly some things on the internet. But the flags for it to be so were there, the roswell celebration, where even the Raelians have moved to Nevada, and a theme park planned. Who makes it possible..us
Numerous games and movies like bad robot transformers, 01-08-08, star trek which take advantage of the interest, perpetuate and attempt to quench a perfectly natural but unquenchable thirst for the unknown. We should all email the good folx we were counting and let them know politely of course, as cursing never cuts it, how you feel as concisely as humanely possible. It will be something they never forget. The keyboard is a very supernatural piece of equipment, and the effect on LMH and C2C and others can be just as alien..but this is for real. empower yourselves and email. Make them think twice the next time. If you still support them well whether you spank them or thank them, its all for the good of the order.

Do you remember the original startrek movie when the voyager satellite was transfmormed by an alien robotic civilization, turned around to exteminate all carbon based life forms? Things like that are a possibility. what was fascinating was when Voyager merged with a trek crewman, said..is this all there is? and if I remember went on to a new dimension or universe having learned all there is to know here. That was us voyager.

If you look at all the pics the Nasa and Russian and British satellites of the craft, if you look at what the people are doing in graphics and designs such as animationmaster galleries for not only our stories , but things all around us and how we will interface with that ubiquitous computing., they make the models we have studied here pale yes pale in comparison. Google satellite via images surch and be amazed as well as experimental craft. You will feel so good about humanity that this episode however distressful will fade away.

It makes me a proud and boastful Terran to know we did these things by first observing and looking, and perhaps someone like yourself or outrageo or springer or even a child iin mozambique decides to do it differently and behold we become a greater civilization.

So your greatest weapon will be reason and experience, trial and error, and a little serendipity , for the proverbial mother of invention is 1% inspiration and 99% perspiration so it is with determing the truth.


God Bless

SyS
^i^