Mexican activist attempts to burn American Flag-key word "attempts"

Originally posted by intrepid
OK guys, we can discuss this civilly.

you talking to me[/travis bickle]

yeah, we can...sorry if i got outta line

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
I couldn't really care less. That's what pen and paper are for.

Exactly. That's what pen and paper are for. If you are against the Supreme Court's decision on this issue, you are free to use that pen and paper to write to them and say you don't agree.

If he is LEGAL, which is questionable

Because he's one of those darned diggity "Mexicans", eh? Show me some proof this man is a Mexican, or leave it alone. Since when does an American have to look exactly like me before I deem them a citizen "on sight?"

he should right his congressman or senator addressing whatever issue he is pissed off about, not burn the damned American flag..

With so much respect for the American flag, you sure don't mind damning it do you?

Not literally,no... Symbolically, yeah, in a way he was.

Need some thick skin, then. Living in America, and appreciating your freedoms is not for the faint of heart. You take the good with the bad, whether you like it or not. You uphold your Constitution, and you base your opinions on fair and truth. You have the freedom to interpret symbols as you wish, and you are also holding the duty to allow other interpretations. Its a beautiful thing.

Originally posted by newyorkeeThe falg was his property. Why do his "actions" merit punishment or scorn.

Scorn is fair game. People can scorn it, but as I see it, most people here can't figure out whether they are upset that this guy is a Mexican, or that this guy burned a flag, and end up running in circles trying to figure out what issue they are focusing on.

But hey he did make his point.

Without even burning the flag he made his point. Because some Joe Blow "patriot" decided to steal personal property from someone else. Some don't like it when I say "steal," but if any of us had a hundred dollar bill, that we never planned on spending, and someone took that from us, saying "money is meant to be spent, not horded," we would say the individual was stealing. Quite frankly, a Constitutional right is by far, much more valuable than any amount of money. Yet somehow, some can justify the blatant theft because it fits for their own agenda.

And still I am left, wondering whether we're more upset that this person can be one of those "illegals" or "a pyro."

*Edit - Clarification*

[edit on 7/30/07 by niteboy82]

What I can say is, to many people the flag is something more then a piece of cloth with stars, as I stated before, its our Fathers, Mothers , Brothers and Sisters. Who are you to tell us any different. This is OUR right to believe that. Is it any less of a believe then burning the Koran, or the Bible. Aren't these things just pieces of paper? What you stand behind, what you believe in is our RIGHT and also our right to defend that belief. Find something in your heart that would hurt you tremendously if treated wrong. A picture of your parents? Your grandmother. But are those just pieces of paper, or are they something more.

Why I agree, its a first amendment right, and I will die to protect that right. Because the government should only have so much power, and its the people who will need to say "no we do not want this" This has not happened. So we have to respect the law. But do not sit here and berate us for believing it is wrong. Its wrong to have pride in the symbol or your country? Is it Wrong to want to protect that symbol, whether it means nothing to you or not.

Legally you are correct, this does not make you morally correct. But at the very least do not belittle people for their belief in a symbol. You will have 80% of the population to deal with , maybe not the flag but some symbol huh?

Originally posted by ShiftTrio
What I can say is, to many people the flag is something more then a piece of cloth with stars, as I stated before, its our Fathers, Mothers , Brothers and Sisters. Who are you to tell us any different. This is OUR right to believe that. Is it any less of a believe then burning the Koran, or the Bible. Aren't these things just pieces of paper? What you stand behind, what you believe in is our RIGHT and also our right to defend that belief.

Your right to defend your belief is granted by the first amendment. It does NOT give you the right to steal someone's flag because you are against it being burned. You have the right to believe the flag a symbol of the country, patriotism, etc. The person burning the flag may think it represents the country as well, which may be the very reason he is burning the flag. This has been said many times already, but different things mean different things to different people. Who's belief is right? All of them.

Originally posted by ShiftTrio
What I can say is, to many people the flag is something more then a piece of cloth with stars, as I stated before, its our Fathers, Mothers , Brothers and Sisters. Who are you to tell us any different. This is OUR right to believe that.

Legally you are correct, this does not make you morally correct. But at the very least do not belittle people for their belief in a symbol. You will have 80% of the population to deal with , maybe not the flag but some symbol huh?

thats what i said earlier....you ask 100 people what it means and you will get 100 different answers...bottom line, you're the one attaching these beliefs or whatever you want to call it to the flag...
that means it is very much your problem when/if issues like this come up..just cause you feel the flag means this or that, don't mean i do...
thats the whole point of having rights and free speech. so you can 'say your piece'...that was designed for the unpopular opinions and such...

you should be able to get as bunged up as you want but it's not right or legal to steal his flag. it's not legal to hit him and it's not cool to want him hit(not saying you said anything to the effect, but some did.)
his rights trump your personal feelings...


as far as the legal/moral thing....the law is clear but morality is not. everyone has a different set of morals/values. imo, it is not morally wrong to burn the flag. maybe to you it is.....which one of us is right?
people don't beleive the same things and we can't go around trying to shut people up in one way or another cause of what they are saying or doing hurts our feelings.

as long as someone is not harming you physically or your family, trying to steal your property and such, then you have no rights to get in on them and certainly not to touch them or steal their stuff.

maybe some people here need to learn how to check their feelings...ever try that?
ever think that maybe, just maybe you going a bit overboard with the attachment to the flag?


i like to think of it more as a logo....it's the logo of the us...

orange county choppers has a logo, mcdonalds has one.....i think the flag is a good logo for the states....

Originally posted by ShiftTrio
What I can say is, to many people the flag is something more then a piece of cloth with stars, as I stated before, its our Fathers, Mothers , Brothers and Sisters.

You forgot the end of that famous line, "and what they fought for!"

Who are you to tell us any different. This is OUR right to believe that.

Absolutely. It is your right, it's also your responsibility to recognize other's rights.

Is it any less of a believe then burning the Koran, or the Bible. Aren't these things just pieces of paper? What you stand behind, what you believe in is our RIGHT and also our right to defend that belief.

If you can only equate the quality of your faith by the value of paper, then you need to have an introspective session for yourself. If someone burned my Gohonzon, I would not lose my faith. I would only lose my Gohonzon, which could be replaced.

Find something in your heart that would hurt you tremendously if treated wrong. A picture of your parents? Your grandmother. But are those just pieces of paper, or are they something more.

I see where you're coming from, it is something more. However, I am not mass producing a photo of Grandma for mass market retail. The flag can be replaced by another flag, and that without my loss of respect for our country.

Why I agree, its a first amendment right, and I will die to protect that right. Because the government should only have so much power, and its the people who will need to say "no we do not want this" This has not happened. So we have to respect the law. But do not sit here and berate us for believing it is wrong. Its wrong to have pride in the symbol or your country? Is it Wrong to want to protect that symbol, whether it means nothing to you or not.

It is beautiful to have pride in your country. But please remember that your patriotism is not lost with the destruction of a flag. Your pride is all around you, in every aspect of what you see. You see criminals being prosecuted, you see parents raising their children how they see fit, you see us on here, living in a country that allows us to log on, and post our beliefs. This does not become undermined with the burning of a single flag.

Legally you are correct, this does not make you morally correct. But at the very least do not belittle people for their belief in a symbol. You will have 80% of the population to deal with , maybe not the flag but some symbol huh?

We as a society, through the government we elect, and the judges those elected appoint, work to define the moral "law" we live in. Murder is illegal because killing someone else is morally wrong, based upon how our society works. I do not belittle you for your belief in a symbol, as a matter of fact I applaud you for that. I do, however, believe that you are free to interpret your symbol how you will, and so are others in a different way. How do we know the guy burning the flag wasn't a veteran, who was so saddened by how he saw the nation as it is, that he decided his last form of protest was to burn the biggest symbol he knew, to show his discontent?


[edit on 7/30/07 by niteboy82]

You exactly right , all of them. Bottom line both men were wrong. You cannot burn anything in a NYC street, and you cannot steal ones possessions. So as their rights may be protected, how they use those right are not in this case.

Bottom line: Both men acted without thought. You can say anything you want about rights. But if we want to make this a legal issue. Which it should be. Sure you can burn the flag, but not in a public NYC street. And you cannot steal someones belongings.

Originally posted by niteboy82
I see where you're coming from, it is something more. However, I am not mass producing a photo of Grandma for mass market retail. The flag can be replaced by another flag, and that without my loss of respect for our country.

yes man....thats what i was trying to say earlier....i can walk 1 block away and buy a flag of various sizes and be home in 5 minutes...

something happens to the precious flag, then go get another flag...
let that dude do what he wants with his flag you know?


it is cloth......thats why i said i could get is there was only ever 1 american flag made and someone tried to burn it......whole different deal....

all these rules and guidlines of respect for how the flag should be treated and such is silly.

it's to be raised fast and lowered slow. it is not to dip like this or get too worn out....disposed of properly and all that.

funny you can go to the most generic dime store and buy a flag that is folded like a square in some old, dusty plastic sleeve with a tag on it that says made in taiwan or some crap...
they can be mass produced for cheap. they can be packed and shipped various ways....trucks, planes, boxes and bags.


at what point to the rules and regulations for handling a flag come into play?

it's so silly

Originally posted by ShiftTrio
You cannot burn anything in a NYC street.....

You can't? I'm not saying you're wrong but I would like to read this bylaw as I haven't been able to find it myself.

Originally posted by ShiftTrio
You exactly right , all of them. Bottom line both men were wrong. You cannot burn anything in a NYC street, and you cannot steal ones possessions. So as their rights may be protected, how they use those right are not in this case.

Bottom line: Both men acted without thought. You can say anything you want about rights. But if we want to make this a legal issue. Which it should be. Sure you can burn the flag, but not in a public NYC street. And you cannot steal someones belongings.

oh, quit with the cop out....the burning on a new york street is not the issue here. it's the burning of the flag....
you're trying to justify being mad cause it was a flag being burnt...like you actually care that someone was burning 'something'...
don't think so...

how do you know the guy burning the flag acted without thought?

if you are allowed by law to burn the flag, then where are you allowed?
wasn't there a cop near by? did he arrest the guy or cite him for burning something in public?

i think it is so funny that people are even bringing up being in 'public' like that is actually an issue at all.

as i said, if some dude was burning his gunners t-shirt or something, you wouldn't care...nobody would care. the fire in the street wouldn't be an issue....

atheism.about.com...

New York: It is a misdemeanor for someone to put "any word, figure, mark, picture, design, drawing, or any advertisement, of any nature" on the national and state flag, as well as to put any representations of the flags on any "blank check, bill head, letter head, envelope or other business stationery." It is also a crime to "publicly mutilate, deface, defile, or defy, trample upon, or cast contempt upon either by words or act" the national or state flag.

penalty=none

now, are you going to go on a tirade about people that use the flag on their checks or letterhead as well?

it's against the law!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

actually I do care if someone is burning something in a crowded street. Why is that so hard to believe? Because I am correct? because it he shouldn't be able to burn something, ANYTHING. Or because it throws a wrench in this argument.

A cop out is you not being able to argue that point. So you use words like Cop out.

For the record
1) its his right to burn a flag I agree
2) Its is illegal to burn something in a NYC street. This is a city law. I will find the documentation for that.
3) So plan a protest where you can legally burn the flag. then My argument would be no more.
4) Then we can go an legally, protest his his protest LOL

Again Just because you do not feel the same way about the flag does not make it the correct way. and I am talking about the just go get another argument. Not the right to burn it. as I stated above its is right to do so.

Originally posted by Boondock78
atheism.about.com...


penalty=none

now, are you going to go on a tirade about people that use the flag on their checks or letterhead as well?

it's against the law!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

But it is isn't .. Correct? And all you can do is use sarcasm? Your are the person I speak of when I say you have to talk down to people in order to get your point across. This also is just about flag burning. not about lighting a fire in public.

Can you argue that it is not illegal? You can't ,so you speak down to people.

No worries though, I'm thick skinned =)

Originally posted by ShiftTrio


Can you argue that it is not illegal?

Well, I can't. Until I see any bylaws that pertain to this.

Btw, this is in reference to your previous post. Where would you say would be a good place to burn a flag? In your back yard? Not much of a protest. In a mall, Yikes, I can see a REAL problem there. So where?

Originally posted by somedude

Originally posted by noangels2006
Its only a piece of fabric guys,dont be brainwashed into thinking its anything other than that

Just like the Constitution is only a piece of paper, and the Bible is only a book, and a tombstone is only a slab of marble? I could go on and try to hit something that actually matters to you, but hopefully the point was made.

Nobody gets angry over the burning of fabric (unless maybe you're an uptight fire marshal). It's the act of vandalizing something that holds symbolic value to many, when the intent of the act is only to cause offense and to insult those that do hold value in it.

edit: typos

[edit on 7/29/2007 by somedude]

With great respect mate*shakes hand*a lot of you yanks look like you are flag kissers!I find it amusing to be honest that your taught to behave this way.I am happy that I am english but I have never bought a flag-In fact you would be hard pressed to see any flags hoisted above goverment buildings,let alone private homes!(But Gordon Brown will change this as he is Scottish and he wants to look English as out prime minister)
The only time we see flags come out is when we are doing well in football or rugger
The only other country I see that worships flags in the same manner would be China!
But respect to you if you want to see other things in your flag,I certainly cant but i wouldnt demand you to take your flag down or any other bit of cloth that flutters in the wind.It is your right to do that like it is that chaps right to burn his flag.
Doesnt matter if he is right or wrong,just that he had the right to do it

No hard feelings bro

Originally posted by ShiftTrio
actually I do care if someone is burning something in a crowded street. Why is that so hard to believe? Because I am correct? .

quite simply it is hard for me to believe cause i simply do not believe you...i think after reading these posts that had it none been the flag, your nor anyone else would have brought up that end of it....

i also asked, do you get uptight when you see someone pass a check with a flag on it? when does it stop for you?

i have used words like cop out but that is not my sole argument. i have made several posts in this thread and really, the constitution makes my point for me....

Originally posted by ShiftTrio

But it is isn't .. Correct? And all you can do is use sarcasm? Your are the person I speak of when I say you have to talk down to people in order to get your point across.
Can you argue that it is not illegal? You can't ,so you speak down to people.

No worries though, I'm thick skinned =)

no, sarcasm is not all i can do. read through th elast pages. i have made several arguments. pick out what you want, i don't too much care....

i can argue that it is legal to burn the flag...that is all i care about..imo, the actual fire on the street is such a non issue and again, you and others only bring it up to justify being so ticked at the flag getting burned.

A sybol can not be harmed. If the flag was wrapped around a human being then I could see it being morally wrong. Patriotism is fine, but by taking such a strong stance against something so irrelevant to your actual happieness you actualy take a stance against those persons of the american public who for lacking a better means of sybolizing our government resort to burning an american falg in protest of said government. Was he mad at the american people or the government you think? This is crucial because before you get upset at him burning our flag ask your self why he might have done so. Usually it is burned in protest of the government not its people. Why take it personally?

Originally posted by noangels2006
With great respect mate*shakes hand*a lot of you yanks look like you are flag kissers!I find it amusing to be honest that your taught to behave this way.I

hey man, i'm a 'yank' and i find it just as amusing.

see, it starts in kindergarden when you have to stand and place your hand over your heart and say the pledge, every day.
then when you go to ball games you have to do it there too.
american flags in all the gov buildings....
half mast for this, half mast for that.. on and on...

then we have the patriots that are not secret in making people feel or calling them anti american if they don't show as much love for the flag....it pretty much is just like you put it....
people are tought, in a round about way to feel this way about the flag....hopefully at some point you start to think for yourself and attach whatever you want to it...

but there are so many people here and there and over there that have this underlying allegience to this fabric.....it is very much amusing to me too man.....nice to meet ya

New York State Law
----------------------------
These are the only things you can light on fire. So I guess if they built a pit and cooked a small chicken over it it would be ok =)


New York State Uniform Fire Prevention and Building Code, Section 1191.2c, "Outdoors Fires", and the Environmental Conservation Law, 6 NYCRR, Part 215, entitled "Open Burning" with the Albany County Health Department, we find nothing in either Code to restrict small fires for the purpose of cooking food or recreation provided that the fireplace, pit, grill, etc., meets the following conditions:

1. The fire does not generate smoke or noxious emissions which would interfere with the reasonable enjoyment of life (neighbors may have allergies, asthma, etc.);

2. It is not a source of ignition to any nearby combustibles;

3. It is attended at all times;

4. Some type of grate, etc., be on the fireplace, grill, pit, etc.,

5. A suitable fire extinguisher be readily available (hose, pail of water, etc.)

6. Clean wood only is to be used as fuel, no pressure treated, painted or chemically treated wood is allowed;

7. Prohibited items such as leaves, brush, garbage, refuse, wooden pallets, construction debris, cardboard, or any type of combustible or flammable liquids are not to be used for fuel;

8. Fire is to be completely extinguished when finished.