Mexican activist attempts to burn American Flag-key word "attempts"

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posted on Jul, 29 2007 @ 06:13 PM
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Is it legal to set ANYTHING on fire, in a public place, without a burn permit?

don't know, don't care....if you're not a cop and you think this person is breaking the law by burning without a permit, then you call the cops. you don't go vigilante cause your feelings are hurt...


Far cry from vigilantism, keeping someone from starting a fire in a public place.
The cops would have gotten there, at best, a few minutes later. Possibly too late.

Isn't protesting, in an illegal fashion, almost a form of vigilantism?
Isn't that ignoring laws, to achieve a desired result? He broke a law, to make a point..Why does el schmucko get to do that?




I believe he relinquished his rights to that property (the flag) as soon as he touched a lighter to it. So, IMO, there was not theft.

^^^^well, you're entitled to your opinion but that don't mean you're correct....if i light my porsche on fire, do you have the right to run over, put it out and make away with my car? i mean, did i relinquish my rights to my property?
i'm curious as to how lighting it on fire makes it cease to be his...can you explain that a bit more please?


If you set your car on fire, in a public place, and it could be made safer by moving it away from the location and YOU, the arsonist. Doesn't mean I get to keep it though. We also don't know if the guy who took the flag, didn't eventually give it back.

It ceased to be his, at least for the moment, when he endangered the safety of others. It was a good move, separating him from the flag.





Besides, his intentions were to destroy it anyway!

^^^^^thats the great thing about when the property is yours. i can choose to take my 52 inch flat screen out and take the sledge hammer to it if i wish....you don't have the right to do that to my tv though? just cause i start doing that does not mean the tv can become your property...


A piece of cloth, and a 52 inch TV are not analogous enough.
But, for the sake of argument. If you started swinging a sledge on a public street like that..I would take the sledge, and not the TV. Then call the cops.
If they told me to give the sledge back, I would.
Just like the guy whose flag was "stolen" I wonder if HE called the cops?
I suppose he could have..personal theft and all.





when it is all said and done, i was born here as were you. i am entitled to live here and try to be happy and free, just as you are....bottom line.


Would you ever burn a flag in protest?
If so, would you get the proper documents to allow for Burning something in public?
Or, would you just burn it, then cry foul when arrested for arson?




posted on Jul, 29 2007 @ 06:45 PM
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Originally posted by spacedoubt
Far cry from vigilantism, keeping someone from starting a fire in a public place. The cops would have gotten there, at best, a few minutes later. Possibly too late.

There was at least one cop, watch the video again.


Plus with all the threads on ATS of protests gone wrong, and what the final answer is, I have no doubt the police could have been in control.



It ceased to be his, at least for the moment, when he endangered the safety of others. It was a good move, separating him from the flag.

Again, the safest thing would be allow the police to do their jobs, from the grave threat of the giant 3"x5" burning flag.



Besides, his intentions were to destroy it anyway!

That's none of his business. It was not his responsibility to remove personal property that did not belong to him from another's person.


Just like the guy whose flag was "stolen" I wonder if HE called the cops? I suppose he could have..personal theft and all.

Sure could have, and I would have. Anyone physically trying to remove my right to burn that flag would have every legal action thrown at them that I possibly could.


Would you ever burn a flag in protest? If so, would you get the proper documents to allow for Burning something in public? Or, would you just burn it, then cry foul when arrested for arson?

Yes I most definitely would burn a flag in protest if that was what was deemed appropriate at the moment. The proper documents is a situational case, being that if I felt that I could win a case in court based on my purpose for the burning of that flag, and show that I felt the Constitutional need based on the circumstance. Otherwise, yeah, I'd have another one of those cutsie permits that are nothing more than financial handicaps to the process of free protest in the first place. Also, we have yet to see any sourced facts that this person did not indeed have a permit in the first place.



posted on Jul, 29 2007 @ 07:07 PM
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Originally posted by niteboy82
Patriotism is great. But if we break it down, I can say that any crime committed is an act of patriotism on my part, but it has to be generally acceptable by the public. This man stole the flag out of the hands of another (presumably) citizen. If he would have stamped out the burning flag with his foot? No harm done. If he would have thrown a bucket of water on the flag? No harm done.


Its a fine line for sure. The Boston Tea Party is another event that comes to mind. I was not infering mindless patriotism by any stretch. I was really pointing out the lable Americans often get when they express anything patriotic.

Edit: Remember the Maplethorp art work that was NEA funded that required a person to walk on the american flag to sign a comment book?

That being said, a flag is a symbol, and to most a symbol of pride, of national soverignty etc. One only has to look as far as San Jose, California where the Mexican flag is displayed all over with pride. (When the Mexican national soccer team is playing, its blanketed). Would the citizens take kindly to my burning of thier flag? Not any more than I would if they burned the US flag. Its part and parcel with Freedom of speech you have to take the good with the bad PERIOD. The first amendment does not mention "Free speech as long as I give it approval"

If someone protesting feels the they need to perform such an act why are people so opposed to it? I would not do it as many of the posters here have stated. Nor would I participate in such a protest. But nor would I try to imped thier right to protest in such a manner.

Anti burning legislation and the like
Do people not see what a slippery slope that is? I heard a quote the other day and it went something like this.

Republics do not fall from external pressures untill they fall from within.

We are very close ourselves here. If we start legislating what we can say and do, its game over. We are on that slope already. The Patriot act, Gitmo, et al. has shown a disregard for our own Constitution and Bill of Rights. The question is have we passed the point of no return?

[edit on 7/29/07 by FredT]



posted on Jul, 29 2007 @ 08:25 PM
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For all the people who talk about it be illegal to take the mans flag, it is also illegal to light a fire on a NYC street. Did ya know that? The cops were not stopping the man from trying to burn the flag either.

So are both men wrong? maybe. But no one got arrested. I think the police handled that pretty well, considering they could have beat the crap out of both people. next time actually watch the video and speak the truth of what went on.

Not just push some sort of agenda for your New World Order Conspiracy.

For the record if I saw someone burning the flag I would take it from them as well. But I would take it from them, fully knowing I might go to jail for I believe in. Remember our rights work both ways not just for th Anti-Government people.

Also for the record, I cannot stand the current admin, I hate what they have done to this country, but the flag stands for all those who died for us in a better time, for the freedom it gives for that POS to burn it.



posted on Jul, 29 2007 @ 08:35 PM
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Originally posted by ShiftTrio
considering they could have beat the crap out of both people. next time actually watch the video and speak the truth of what went on.

They could have? So we are supposed to mind our P's and Q's so the police don't beat us to a pulp?



Not just push some sort of agenda for your New World Order Conspiracy.

huh?


For the record if I saw someone burning the flag I would take it from them as well. But I would take it from them, fully knowing I might go to jail for I believe in.

At least you understand the full effects of what you would be doing.


Also for the record, I cannot stand the current admin, I hate what they have done to this country, but the flag stands for all those who died for us in a better time, for the freedom it gives for that POS to burn it.

I agree with you on this admin. But the flag is symbolic. The burning of the flag is symbolic on the nature of your protest, and your want for attention.

Btw, how does something "stand for something" but it can't be used in a symbolic way that doesn't agree with yours?



posted on Jul, 29 2007 @ 08:43 PM
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It's not "friggin warped" it's called caring about your country's symbols.

the way a christian gets mad if you burn a bible (or any other religion and their book)

but by your logic, it's just paper right?

well....to them it's not just cheap paper...it's a symbol of their faith and their history as well as their ideals.


if the guy was burning a t-shirt that said "god bless america" or something like that...then yea.....it's just cloth.....but the flag is a symbol of what us "patriots" feel OUR country is supposed to stand for.

one who does not appreciate what the symbol stands for does not deserve the "rights" that symbol affords them.

burning a flag is a cop out means of protest and it is MEANT to spark animosity and fights.

and by the way, that "freedom of speech" you love so much is being destroyed by these very acts (such as burning a flag).

I'm willing to bet that those of you who are on the side of the flag burner would also be opposed to the minutemen and any protest that was being held AGAINST illegal immigration.



posted on Jul, 29 2007 @ 09:04 PM
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I've always been fascinated with the flag burning arguments. It seems to break people into two groups because of the contradiction it presents.

On one hand, you have the symbol of freedom of expression. On the other, you have the freedom of expression itself. Which to choose? For me, it would always be the freedom itself.

Anti-flag burners tie the symbol up with their sense of nationalism. The flag becomes a sacred object. But what if that which it represents, America, becomes despotic. What if that flag evolves into a symbol of totalitarianism? Is it still sacred?



posted on Jul, 29 2007 @ 09:26 PM
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Originally posted by niteboy82


They could have? So we are supposed to mind our P's and Q's so the police don't beat us to a pulp? :puz


Not at all, the point was, there was someone previously speaking of a police state, if this is a police state it sure doesn't look like the police know it. An as I said BOTH men were in fact breaking the law. How much you bet that people would scream Police state if they stopped the guy from burning the flag, even though lighting a fire in NYC IS a crime. Then the second guy wold never be involved. But would you feel the same if they arrested the second man? Thats why I said NWO conspiracy agenda (and I wasnt speaking to anyone specifically) But people would say one illegal activity it better then another because it could be interpreted as a police state type mentality.







I agree with you on this admin. But the flag is symbolic. The burning of the flag is symbolic on the nature of your protest, and your want for attention.

Btw, how does something "stand for something" but it can't be used in a symbolic way that doesn't agree with yours?


But why the flag, is it the flag that has done something? Why not an effigy of the people who actually make the decisions. See the Flag represents us, not the U.S. its your fathers, mothers, brothers and sisters. or at least it means that to me. It mean whats we could become, what we used to be. You can hate the government, but if you hate America? Then what the hell are you doing here (not you but in general). People who burn the flag in IMHO are cowards. Hence the bandanna. Blame the people who have caused the issues not the country. again this in my opinion.



posted on Jul, 29 2007 @ 09:43 PM
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Originally posted by ShiftTrio
People who burn the flag in IMHO are cowards.


I think it's pretty gutsy myself.



Blame the people who have caused the issues not the country.


I support all forms of lawful decent, but I agree in that I'd rather burn an effigy of Bush than the flag.



posted on Jul, 29 2007 @ 10:55 PM
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Originally posted by yuefo

Anti-flag burners tie the symbol up with their sense of nationalism. The flag becomes a sacred object. But what if that which it represents, America, becomes despotic. What if that flag evolves into a symbol of totalitarianism? Is it still sacred?


That is an excellent, very thought provoking question yuefo. But I still think that at that point I would feel the same way about it. After all, the flag didn't become despotic, but rather the administration did. The flag would still represent what America should be and would be again when it's citizens rose up and took back what is theirs (hopefully).

To those who say the flag is just a piece of cloth, have we forgotten what it was like in the first weeks after 9-11. It seemed that every business, home and vehicle was displaying the flag. To me that represented solidarity and the sentiment that we were all together in this tragedy. I think if someone had been seen burning a flag then they may not have been around to complain that there rights were being trampled on. That officer standing by would have probably been forced to arrest the guy for his own safety, lest he be ripped limb from limb by a howling mob. And he would probably still complained, not realizing how close he had been from losing his life, let alone his right.



posted on Jul, 30 2007 @ 01:13 AM
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well that mexican guy is probably illegal here like the other 20,000,000
illegals here in the uninted states so he would not he would not be stupid enough to try to prosicute the other guy or he would get sent out to mexico
(and right now i am using my right of free speach held up by that very flag) and all the vetrans like my dad,grandpa,and my grandpa from my moms side and general Mclellen from the civil war is also in my family i might be only 14 but i take history class and i know we dont have wars for no reason it is to keep that flag standing STRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!




posted on Jul, 30 2007 @ 01:45 AM
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Twist it anyway you want to.My point ,was and I believe you know it, is that why should anyone burn a flag of the country that he came to for freedom?????? What kind of thinking is that. You twist what we say like a bunch of lawyers all you want. All I am saying is that itis wrong and it better not happen in front of me.



[edit on 30-7-2007 by Daz3d-n-Confus3d]



posted on Jul, 30 2007 @ 01:58 AM
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what a hero
swearing in anger at the top of his voice in public while children are present.
stealing someone else's property.

hi, im yet another stupid american.



posted on Jul, 30 2007 @ 02:25 AM
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Originally posted by niteboy82
Secondly, the person with the flag should have pressed charges against the other man for theft. He pulled the flag owned by the man wishing to burn it, out of his hands, and would not give it back.


Third, the man attempting to burn the flag should have charges against him for attempting to start a fire in public, a crowded place, something like that. Is it illegal to start fires in public/crowded places?

It's pretty sad that someone would go to that level and even consider burning a flag. While I agree that it is his right to do so, it's also bad taste imo and a blunt act of disrespect towards the millions of citizens and legal immigrants in the US.



posted on Jul, 30 2007 @ 04:28 AM
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Oh my... am I the only one to have picked up that almost everyone here has racial stereotyped the flag burning bandito? I ask you... How do we know he's Mexican? Because he looks like it? Can you tell by how large or small his nose is, ear cavities, and height to know where he reigns from? I sure can't and am dumbfounded how anyone else can!

Most of you want to naturally assume Mexican because? And you want to say he an Illegal because? Stop your stereotyping, it does no good except get the group you are stereotyping angry.

Now let's do an experiment for a second...

Lets pretend that you know of this guy (Hispanic), you and your family have lived on the same ranch with the same neighbors since Texas was the Republic of Texas. This man is a cousin of your neighbors, and you KNOW he was born and raised in America. He was merely wearing the bandanna because he works at the local Boot Barn. He was infuriated that some of his rights were being stepped on the government from a bill recently passed. (Pick one that you think we have now or if you feel we don't create one... Like "Slap a Republican Day") He was so angry he wanted to protest on his break, but all he had was a flag in his pocket and a lighter, because only true Americans carry small American flags around in their pocket. He had recently watched the news when Bush was in South America and saw people burning flags to protest, so thats what he set out to do.

Now you tell me... Can you prove any of my theory wrong? If not stop calling him Mexican and Illegal, because it holds no water what-so-ever.



posted on Jul, 30 2007 @ 07:09 AM
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Originally posted by SimiusDei

It's not "friggin warped" it's called caring about your country's symbols.

the way a christian gets mad if you burn a bible (or any other religion and their book)

but by your logic, it's just paper right?


if the guy was burning a t-shirt that said "god bless america" or something like that...then yea.....it's just cloth.....but the flag is a symbol of what us "patriots" feel OUR country is supposed to stand for.


I'm willing to bet that those of you who are on the side of the flag burner would also be opposed to the minutemen and any protest that was being held AGAINST illegal immigration.


no, it's called friggin warped. YOU are the one that attaches your emotions to the cotton. not me...your problem dude...
and yes, the same way someone would get mad if you burned the bible....just paper to me...i used to 'burn' the bible all the time...just pieces of a page at a time...


you said it your self. YOU PATRIOTS feel what the flag is SUPPOSED to mean....well, that is you patriots problem...the law states we can burn one. the constitution gives us the right to free speech.
pretty funny the patriots who care about what the flag is supposed to mean(a country that promotes freedom and free speech right) wants to stop people from speaking freely......

well, how much is involved in your little bet cause i take paypal...i am not FOR this guy doing what he did...i am AGAINST all you patriot, flag kissers talking about wanting to take the flag or stop him or lay it on him cause it hurts your feelings.....
i would not be opposed to ANY protest(as long as it is not violent) reguarding immigration, legal or illegal.....

so yeah, maybe you shouldn't assume...
also, maybe get your emotions/feelings in check.

the law of the land trumps your sensative feelings.



posted on Jul, 30 2007 @ 07:14 AM
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Originally posted by Sky Eyes


To those who say the flag is just a piece of cloth, have we forgotten what it was like in the first weeks after 9-11. It seemed that every business, home and vehicle was displaying the flag. To me that represented solidarity and the sentiment that we were all together in this tragedy..


how could i forget? it gets mentioned 10 times a day, every day still.

i saw all the american flag stuff. i don't doubt a great majority of that was people trying to show their support....i also don't doubt that people wanted to 'appear' to be patriotic....all the people that rushed out to get flags to display in their yard and magnets for their car...have to be part of the crowd.
since i see it as just a piece of cloth, i did not do any of that. that does not mean i did not feel bad and such....just don't feel the need to jump on the 'wave my flag around bandwagon'....

i have a yellow ribbon on my car that says 'support individuality'



posted on Jul, 30 2007 @ 07:19 AM
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Originally posted by Daz3d-n-Confus3d



Twist it anyway you want to.My point ,was and I believe you know it, is that why should anyone burn a flag of the country that he came to for freedom?????? All I am saying is that itis wrong and it better not happen in front of me.

[edit on 30-7-2007 by Daz3d-n-Confus3d]


another tough guy thats gonna 'beat em down if they burn the flag'...
bwuahahahahahahah

why should/would anyone burn it after they came here for freedom? don't know....don't care....multiple possible reasons i am sure with at least one being, 'cause he can'...
thats what is funny. he can burn it, he is within his rights...you can not harm him for doing it....that is not within your rights.

i like all the patriots that talk about or imply physical harm......you guys are super....thats the way to protect what the flag means....beat people up for excercising rights 'the flag' is supposed to symbolize.

as i said, warped.



posted on Jul, 30 2007 @ 07:23 AM
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Originally posted by SportyMB
Third, the man attempting to burn the flag should have charges against him for attempting to start a fire in public, a crowded place, something like that. Is it illegal to start fires in public/crowded places?

It's pretty sad that someone would go to that level and even consider burning a flag. While I agree that it is his right to do so, it's also bad taste imo and a blunt act of disrespect towards the millions of citizens and legal immigrants in the US.


well, unless you're a cop, it is not up to you to stop/charge a person from burning something in public....as i understand it, there was a cop right there. the guy that tried to take his flag should have notified this cop of the law of not being able to burn stuff in public.....cause that is really what you care about right


it is not against the law to be in bad taste......thats just the way it is....

since everyone is worried about this fire in public, do you concern yourself with smokers...? they light A LOT of cigs in public and those stray cigs have started a LOT of fires......
does that worry you?



posted on Jul, 30 2007 @ 08:12 AM
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Originally posted by yuefo
Anti-flag burners tie the symbol up with their sense of nationalism. The flag becomes a sacred object. But what if that which it represents, America, becomes despotic. What if that flag evolves into a symbol of totalitarianism? Is it still sacred?

What do you mean, "tie the symbol up"?


Originally posted by yuefo

Originally posted by ShiftTrio
People who burn the flag in IMHO are cowards.


I think it's pretty gutsy myself.


Yeah, real gutsy. Gutsy like vomiting a stream of profanity in front of a group of grandmothers or schoolchildren gutsy. Gutsy like the Phelp's church wingnuts gutsy. Just because that's your "right" to do so.


Originally posted by Boondock78
well, unless you're a cop, it is not up to you to stop/charge a person from burning something in public....as i understand it, there was a cop right there. the guy that tried to take his flag should have notified this cop of the law of not being able to burn stuff in public.....cause that is really what you care about right


Bullcrap. I can give you dozens of instances where it is proper for John Q. Public to step in and take action against some unsafe deed.





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