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Mexican activist attempts to burn American Flag-key word "attempts"

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posted on Jul, 31 2007 @ 06:38 PM
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Do not get me wrong.....I believe in 100% freedom of speech, freedom of the press, the right to bear arms, I do not wish to stifle anyones voice or opinion from being heard, no matter how much I disagree with the words being written or spoken. THAT is what the constitution is about, that is what it was written to do, to protect people with differing opinions from being attacked and persecuted.

However, I see the burning and desecration of the American flag as a direct act of treason and even will go as far as to call it an act of aggression (war) and much the same if I saw someone spraypainting the statue of liberty, I would have no choice but to physically sop that person from doing what they are doing. I know ex military veterans who will remove your teeth for you if they see you even letting the flag touch the ground...what does that say about someone openly choosing to burn old glory in public. Hell no...not if I am around...sorry...I refuse. I will never stand by and watch someone disgrace what both of my grandfathers, my father and many other friends and relatived fought and bled for and died o protect. It is my duty to them and I take it as serious as life and death. Believe me.




posted on Jul, 31 2007 @ 06:39 PM
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Originally posted by BlackOps719
Touche my Canadian friend.....I can only imagine.


And you TOTALLY missed the point of my post. Some days it's like shooting fish in a barrel.


However I do disagree with you one one point. You stated that I am too wrapped up in the little things to see what is really important, and I say to you the little things are the starting point and foundation for change. If you have people burining the American flag on the streets, you undermine every cause from there on out. If you allow such disrespect in your own streets then you have defeated yourself before you even begin.


You DO know that this type of activity started over 40 years ago, right? Has America collapsed? I don't mean to be crude, really I don't but how old are you?


Without honor, respect, loyalty, pride, the ideals that this great nation was founded upon, you have absolutely nothing. You may as well buy yourself a beret, move to France and crochet yourself a blanket to hide under.


That's just plain sad man. Read another government sanctioned book. :shk:



posted on Jul, 31 2007 @ 06:45 PM
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INTREPED-

EXCELLENT COUNTER POINTS MY FRIEND!!

BlackOps-
You have some good counterpoints too but you take it too far.

As much as we may not like flag burning, it is protected by Free Speech. There is nothing we can do about that barring changing it and I hope noone ever decides to do that because then we a re all in a heap of trouble if we start changing that document.

You all know I am Hispanic I have the typical Latino look (tan skin black hair), I am not a naturally born American but immigrated over here. I have been in the military, I have served this country and if it asks me again I will serve this country. I love this country till my last breath.

What you don’t know is this; I live in a small town in Tennessee where I do stand out from the crowd. I go shopping and I do get the looks and the whispers behind my back because its “why is the Mexican here” thing is I’m not Mexican I’m Colombian. But I get treated this way. When I speak people are surprised that I don’t have an accent, I even got complimented on it once because and this is a direct quote “Your people usually have accents”.

But that is my burden to bear and I will bear it. I don’t hate the people for it. I take it as a grain of salt and move on. What I’m trying to say is this yes I think of my self as an American and yes I am considered a Colombian-American and yes I will let the person who wants to burn my flag go ahead and burn it. After he is done I will quietly pick up the ashes put them in a proper container and proceed to express my freedom of speech to him over what he did.



posted on Jul, 31 2007 @ 06:49 PM
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Originally posted by intrepid

Originally posted by BlackOps719
Touche my Canadian friend.....I can only imagine.


And you TOTALLY missed the point of my post. Some days it's like shooting fish in a barrel.


However I do disagree with you one one point. You stated that I am too wrapped up in the little things to see what is really important, and I say to you the little things are the starting point and foundation for change. If you have people burining the American flag on the streets, you undermine every cause from there on out. If you allow such disrespect in your own streets then you have defeated yourself before you even begin.


You DO know that this type of activity started over 40 years ago, right? Has America collapsed? I don't mean to be crude, really I don't but how old are you?


Without honor, respect, loyalty, pride, the ideals that this great nation was founded upon, you have absolutely nothing. You may as well buy yourself a beret, move to France and crochet yourself a blanket to hide under.


That's just plain sad man. Read another government sanctioned book. :shk:



No...actually I perfectly understood your attempt at sarcasm and I instantly recognized your slow witted attempt at baiting me in. I simply ignored your simplistic shenanigans and chose to move on instead.


And actually yes, I am quite aware that flag burning began during the Vietnam era, most likely while you were crapping your diapers and developing a healthy taste for Canadian maple syrup. Meanwhile my father was serving in the U.S. military fighting so that I would have the ability to one day sit here and argue with some random Canadian about what it means to burn the American flag...lmao



I would challenge you to list a few of the ideals and principles that you would hold dear, since mine do not seem to be up to your personal standards. Perhaps you will have difficulty doing so when you realize that you stand or live for very little. Do not try too hard, a simple "I stand for nothing" will do just fine



posted on Jul, 31 2007 @ 06:53 PM
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One thing that has always gotten to me about certain "Patriots" is thier ability to question someones dedication to the Constitution and to the Country.

I have an ancestor

Edward Rutledge

that signed the Declaration of Independence

and his brother

John Rutledge

who signed the Constitution.

I have had family members serve in every war this country has fought Including myself and 3 of my 4 children who are still deployed in this Iraq misadventure. However because I believe that someone has the absolute right of free speech and expression which includes the burning the flag if they so choose. I am now somehow to be considered Treasonous. It pisses me off when someone burns a flag but that being said I respect thier right to do so. Burning the flag is a way expressing grievences to the government. Sometimes the knuckleheads in Washington dont get the message through normal channels so burning the flag becomes a visual expression of frustration with government.

There is no penalty set forth in the Constitution for Treason

The Congress shall have power to declare the punishment of treason, but no attainder of treason shall work corruption of blood, or forfeiture except during the life of the person attainted.

The US Constitution is a great document certain "Patriots" might want to read it one day.



posted on Jul, 31 2007 @ 06:55 PM
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Originally posted by BlackOps719
No...actually I perfectly understood your attempt at sarcasm and I instantly recognized your slow witted attempt at baiting me in. I simply ignored your simplistic shenanigans and chose to move on instead.


And actually yes, I am quite aware that flag burning began during the Vietnam era, most likely while you were crapping your diapers and developing a healthy taste for Canadian maple syrup. Meanwhile my father was serving in the U.S. military fighting so that I would have the ability to one day sit here and argue with some random Canadian about what it means to burn the American flag...lmao



I would challenge you to list a few of the ideals and principles that you would hold dear, since mine do not seem to be up to your personal standards. Perhaps you will have difficulty doing so when you realize that you stand or live for very little. Do not try too hard, a simple "I stand for nothing" will do just fine


Thank you my friend. You have proven your worth by insulting someone rather than meeting them in the field of debate. You've proven my point and Americans reading this are going, "Oh urg, did he really say that?"



posted on Jul, 31 2007 @ 07:00 PM
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Originally posted by intrepid


Thank you my friend. You have proven your worth by insulting someone rather than meeting them in the field of debate. You've proven my point and Americans reading this are going, "Oh urg, did he really say that?"



yes i agree, i was one of the hopefully many that groaned when i read that.



posted on Jul, 31 2007 @ 07:01 PM
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In regards to insults...I challenge you to go back and read through this thread and try and determine who in fact insulted who first here. I think you already know the answer to that.


As for other Americans having cause to cringe at the words I am saying, that I wont deny. Many Americans are too afraid of the PC death squads to stand up in an open forum and pronounce their beliefs for fear of attack. I do not happen to be one of them. And for every American who disagrees with me, God bless you, it is your CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT to do so. But just know that for every one American who disagrees, there is most certainly another two who will



posted on Jul, 31 2007 @ 07:09 PM
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BlackOps, you say you do not wish to do anything to stifle someone's free speech, than go on to say you would have to physically stop someone from burning a flag. I am an American, and if I thought the best way to express my frusteration with the government and the direction of this country was by burning a flag, I would do it. Just remember when you and your croanies come to assault me, that there will be people of all different backgrounds who will support the burning, veterans, religious, non-religious, democrats and republicans. Can you really risk denying a veteran his rights when a reason you (and I) have them is because of his/her service?

And I am glad there is a Canadian here with a broad perspective. Maybe Americans should be more interested in Canadian affairs instead of being being so narcissitic. The policies of Mexico and Canada can directly affect life for Americans.



posted on Jul, 31 2007 @ 07:11 PM
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i am not knowledgable about all of this but, correct me if i am wrong here.

did the founding fathers not commit 'treason'?...whole whole declaring independence and war thing.....



posted on Jul, 31 2007 @ 07:12 PM
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Originally posted by intrepid

Originally posted by Digital_Reality
I have demonstrated!
You do not know me so don't act like you do.
You do not know what Ive done for my country or what my family has done for that matter .
You will NEVER know what it feels like to be an American and watch an American flag burn. You can only guess and even then you would not come close.


OK, OK, I bow to the Keyboard Wizard. Apperantly you forgot the part about the Constitution, you know, the basis of the American nation. :shk:


I'm not trying to be a keyboard wizard no need to insult me. I'm also not trying to burn, prove you wrong or have a snappy comeback. I just wish you would acknowledge the fact that its more than a piece of cloth and to some people its ALOT more. I think my country's flag deserves a little respect thats all.

As a child I stood up in class once a day with everyone else and put my hand across my heart and looked at my flag and said the pledge of allegiance and it always meant something. Its not for you to say if it is or is not something important to someone else.

I respect you right to have your own opinion can you respect others rights to the same?

I like your posts and I enjoy reading what you have to say. Just don't try to argue the fact that my flag is nothing more than a piece of cloth with me.
Especially when you are not even an American in the first place.



posted on Jul, 31 2007 @ 07:13 PM
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Originally posted by Boondock78
i am not knowledgable about all of this but, correct me if i am wrong here.

did the founding fathers not commit 'treason'?...whole whole declaring independence and war thing.....






Yes they did and for the most part its turned out rather well.

[edit on 7/31/2007 by DarkStormCrow]



posted on Jul, 31 2007 @ 07:19 PM
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The reason why I feel that flag burning does not fit under the umbrella of freeodm of speech is simple....it is akin to yelling fire in a crowded theater. To many, flag burning is the ultimate insult and it becomes incredibly personal. As I have stated plainly, free speech is wonderful, I will lay my life on the line for anyone who chooses to take advantage of the freedom of speech that has been given to them under the protection of the U.S. constitution. I disagree with our tgovernment quite readily and I use my own rights to free speech on a daily basis. However (and remember..this is my own PERSONAL OPINION) I see the burning of the American flag as the ultimate spit in the face to every American past and present. It serves no purpose other than to anger and imflame and to desecrate the United States and all that it stands for. It is unforgivable, and in my eyes should be illegal and YES should be a treasonous offence. Man, woman, child, veteran, foreigner, whatever, if you purposefully burn the American flag then you automatically forfeit your right to be an American citizen and you are acting in direct defiance of our constitution and our heritage and you have chosen to become an enemy of the U.S. and all of its citizens. You no longer get to reap the advantages of being an American. It is that simple.



posted on Jul, 31 2007 @ 07:19 PM
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I Do not see where Intrepid is saying that the flag cannot have meaning to others. From what I have read, he is defending people's rights to view it however they so choose. But just because A says flag is just cotton and burns it, B does not have the right to get physical with him because he views it as a sacred symbol.



posted on Jul, 31 2007 @ 07:32 PM
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Originally posted by ninthaxis
I Do not see where Intrepid is saying that the flag cannot have meaning to others. From what I have read, he is defending people's rights to view it however they so choose. But just because A says flag is just cotton and burns it, B does not have the right to get physical with him because he views it as a sacred symbol.


Well hell, I'm human and if A burns the flag in my face he is likely to get a ticket on the B train. Thats life and I have no problem explaining that to a judge. Not being a macho bad ass or anything just exercising my right to go off.



posted on Jul, 31 2007 @ 07:35 PM
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The ability to express ones grievinces to the government is Natural Right of every US citizen.The United States started out by expressing thier grievences to the Crown. How a citizen decides to express this right is thier own decision. Once we take away the right of the citizen to freely protest by burning the flag what will be the next right we will infringe upon. Maybe we can do away with the Miranda warning or that pesky 2nd amendment right to bear arms.

Dissent is the highest form of patriotism, without dissent we are just a bunch of lemmings and yes men or women as it may be.



posted on Jul, 31 2007 @ 07:36 PM
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Originally posted by ninthaxis
I Do not see where Intrepid is saying that the flag cannot have meaning to others. From what I have read, he is defending people's rights to view it however they so choose. But just because A says flag is just cotton and burns it, B does not have the right to get physical with him because he views it as a sacred symbol.


Yes that is the basic jist of the debating that I've seen. The problem arises when one person thinks that their opinion is more important than the "other guys."

Hate it or love it. The freedom to burn a flag is a paradox. Ban it and your disrespecting the consitution. Allow it and people feel disrepected.
So whats the greater evil? The choice seems simple to me.
This country will continue to be great even if every flag was burned. Its the citizens who decide that...not some flag.



posted on Jul, 31 2007 @ 07:45 PM
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Why do you have to be so politically correct.


Political correctness (often abbreviated to PC) is a term used to describe language or behavior that is intended, or said to be intended, to provide a minimum of offense, particularly to racial, cultural, or other identity groups. A text that conforms to the ideals of political correctness is said to be politically correct.

en.wikipedia.org...


Flag burning is protected under the first amendment. Theft or assault is not.



posted on Jul, 31 2007 @ 07:55 PM
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Looks as though, we the people of the United States of America are, going on in our daily walk as though nothing is happening. Here's the facts: the man is trying to burn Old Glory. Let us come at this with the hearts and minds of our military. The men and women of our military, in hope to preserve, our flag and way of life, are dying every day. Have we NO RESPECT? Have we no Balls any more? I for one am hoping something will come out of all this. The flag burning, the signs that read "kill all the whites", "F The Alamo" and so on. I'm ready to load my truck down, with people like this one, and take him back to where ever he comes from. I don't think I'm the only one. I love my country, even though there are a lot of those lil' Bastards out there, that hate us to the very core. I'm sorry for the use of that word, but it makes the point, I'm trying to make. "LONG LIVE AMERICA" and may God curse those who hate us.



posted on Jul, 31 2007 @ 08:00 PM
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Have we NO RESPECT? Have we no Balls any more?



Apparently not.





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