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F22 software problems, Japan plans to design its own stealth, Israel to buy Raptors.

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posted on Jul, 27 2007 @ 03:22 AM
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Some articles, and then look for the twist in the end.


The US Air Force’s planned deployment of its newest stealth fighters to Japan has been postponed due to a computer problem, a US official said Feb. 13.
Twelve F-22A Raptors had been scheduled to fly to Kadena Air Base on the southern island of Okinawa from Hawaii on Feb. 10.

“We discovered a software problem in operating the navigation system,” said John Monroe, a spokesman at the base.


www.defencetalk.com...


Japan’s defense ministry hopes to make a prototype of a next-generation stealth plane, the first new fighter jet designed by the officially pacifist country in 30 years, a report said July 24.



Japan has indicated it wants to buy F-22 Raptors, the latest U.S. Air Force jets built to evade radar detection at supersonic speeds.
U.S. law prohibits export of Raptors. But the United States flew Raptors to Japan earlier this year on their first foreign flight, showing its commitment to the two countries’ security alliance amid tensions with North Korea.
Japan and the United States already jointly design F-2 support fighters, but production is set to end in March 2012.
The Japanese government has not supported development of a domestic fighter aircraft since the F-1 support fighter jet in the 1970s.
F-15 fighter jets, which form the core of Japan’s fighter force, are being manufactured here under a license agreement with the United States.
The Yomiuri said development of Japan’s new prototype would likely cost hundreds of millions of dollars over 10 years.


defensenews.com...

Here’s the twist;


The United States would be inclined to allow the sale of advanced stealth F-22 fighter jets to the Israeli Air Force if the State of Israel's security was in jeopardy, former US Secretary of Defense William S. Cohen told The Jerusalem Post Thursday night.


www.jpost.com...

Now that is very interesting. Japan is willing to dump billions into its own stealth project, while Israel gets to buy our super expensive, best in class super fighter which we vowed not to export in the interests of our national security.

How does that work, and how in the world is Israel capable of affording a $350 million a pop F-22?

I’m getting a feeling that yet another dirty deal has been in the works for some time now, and while our Air Force was forced to keep chopping the numbers of Raptors it could afford do to ever inflating prices, it sure looks like Israel is going to get F-22s at a “special discounted” price.

I have to seriously doubt that Israel’s military budget can absorb the costs of buying and operating Raptors at the price America is currently paying.

A mere 10 F-22s cost 3.5 Billion dollars, and that does not include astronomical costs of their operating costs.

Israel’s entire Defense Budget is +/- 10 billion $, so how many F-22s are they planning to buy in case of the foreseen “security jeopardy”?

It’ll also be very interesting to see how many Raptors Japanese are planning to buy in light of their own stealth project.




posted on Jul, 27 2007 @ 04:57 AM
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Originally posted by iskander

Now that is very interesting. Japan is willing to dump billions into its own stealth project, while Israel gets to buy our super expensive, best in class super fighter which we vowed not to export in the interests of our national security.



At the moment the US cannot legally export the F-22, there is a law in place forbidding it.



posted on Jul, 27 2007 @ 06:19 AM
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That price includes R&D, the flyaway cost for a raptor was aboput $117M, and I remember that recently there was an offer of 20 raptors for $1Billion. Just want to clear that up.



posted on Jul, 27 2007 @ 10:13 AM
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Ok. That article about Israel getting Raptors is dated April 2007. That was when we all thought the F-22 was going to be sold. Now that Congress has enforced the ban and multiple high-up people have said they don't want it to be sold, it probably won't be. Don't worry, Israel won't get them, they're getting the F-35.



posted on Jul, 30 2007 @ 05:41 PM
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That price includes R&D, the flyaway cost for a raptor was aboput $117M, and I remember that recently there was an offer of 20 raptors for $1Billion. Just want to clear that up.


Where did you read that from? As far as I know the projected flyaway price for the FUTURE annual buys w/o r&d costs is to be $127M for 2007, $111M for 2008, and $108M for 2009.

As of 2005, Raptors budget was caped at $37.3B, with total of 177 operational units, with procurement ending in 2008 instead of 2011.


www.globalsecurity.org...


As of 2005 the production cost cap was $37.3 billion. Affordability concerns have, in part, led to the steady decrease in procurement quantities. Two major reviews of defense force structure and acquisition plans - the 1993 Bottom-Up Review and the 1997 Quadrennial Defense Review (QDR) - significantly reduced F/A-22 quantities. OSD's "buy to budget" acquisition strategy essentially placed a ceiling on total program costs resulting in reducing quantities.


So unless I’m mistaken, fly away costs for annual buys are just figurative since the budget was capped back in 2005.


Ok. That article about Israel getting Raptors is dated April 2007. That was when we all thought the F-22 was going to be sold. Now that Congress has enforced the ban and multiple high-up people have said they don't want it to be sold, it probably won't be.


When did the congress ban the exports? I missed that one. I was literally on the other side of the planet for half a year. I’ll appreciate a link to the archive if you have one handy, it’ll save me some search time.

Japanese article is dated Feb 14th, so I guess it must have happened in the last couple of months.


Don't worry, Israel won't get them, they're getting the F-35.


Not exactly. Israelis set an ultimatum demanding joint manufacturing of vital components and systems. Not sure how that one ended up, but considering the track record of how the hill gets lobbied, bribed and corrupted, I’m sure that they are going to get their way.

Just the talk of Israelis wanting to buy Raptors means that they sure as heck will not be paying for r&d and even maintenance part of the cost.
Does anybody know what maintenance cost for Israeli F-15s and F-16s is? Just wondering.

Mod Edit: Removed large quote


[edit on 7/31/07 by FredT]

[edit on 7/31/07 by FredT]



posted on Jul, 30 2007 @ 05:53 PM
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sorry for the off topic

but why do people say Israel will buy this and that?
they basicaly get the weapons given to them since they get billions in aid from the US to buy the gear so its more of Israel want to be given not sold



posted on Jul, 30 2007 @ 06:41 PM
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Here's the article about keeping the ban on the Raptor:
asia.news.yahoo.com...


Personally, I feel Israel will get the F-35 and not the Raptor. Yes, we do give them WAY too much money and weapons, but I don't think we're dumb enough to give into this. I'm sick of Israel demanding our latest military equipment and it must be stopped. This 20 billion dollar aid to Arab countries is also pissing me off. Anyways, back to Israel. I've got a little old saying for them: Beggers can't be choosers. They should shut up and be grateful they're getting anything from us. Same to Japan and all other countries we give aid to.



posted on Jul, 31 2007 @ 12:21 AM
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Iskander, you mentioned you were away? Most of these topics have been covered here already...

The F-22 software problem is on old topic which originally occurred in early February of this year and was highly publicized at that time. The problem was related to the navigational systems which was not calibrated to deal with crossing the international date line. The software glitch was fixed within 48 hours and the 27th FS completed it's rotation schedule in Kadena AFB, Okinawa as planned. All Raptors which had been produced at that time were upgraded with the fix and changes were made to implement the upgraded software in Raptors which have come off the assembly line since.

Source
Source 01

ATS Thread - Link

As for Japan, their move is more political in order to persuade the US to open up the F-22 for FMS, no massive program underway for a next generation Japanese fighter et...

Good Read - Source

ATS Thread - Link

Also, both Israel and Japan will not be getting the F-22, nor is anyone else for that matter. Pentagon leaders are against the idea of exporting the F-22 even to close allies (Source). The White House also opposes the idea and has stated so several times (Source). Even still, currently the F-22 is banned from FMS by a congressional amendment so called "Obey amendment". First passed in 1996 the amendment was reauthorized and passed by congress in late 2006 and subsequently added to the Defense Authorization Bill for 2007 (Source). The amendment has an effective date of 9 years, given that it is unlikely for congress to repeal the ban this ensures that the ban will remain in place even after the F-22 production line is closed. Which brings me to my second point. The 2005 figures posted are horribly out of date, the program has been temporarily capped at 183-185 aircraft (Source). However with the multi year contract in place (Source) production is not scheduled to end until 2010. Currently 131 Raptors are funded with 101 having been through final assembly (Source). Here are pictured of a fully assembled Raptor 100 in primer coat before being delivered to the USAF. Anyway, the current flyaway cost for Lot 7 aircraft is 141 Million, if the production is extended the cost will decease close to 110 Million, however if production ends the fly away cost will increase to 149 Million (Source. It’s important to note that the USAF plans to formally ask for further funds to acquire 20 additional F-22A Raptors past the cap of 183-185 already set (Source).

Also, despite what former officials with no current influence and say in US military and congressional decisions have to say in their personal opinion the F-22 will not be offered for export. The F-35 was designed specifically for that role which is why the USAF is offering an "export variant" of the F-35 to both Japan and Israel instead of the F-22 (Source).

[edit on 31-7-2007 by WestPoint23]



posted on Jul, 31 2007 @ 08:25 AM
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Well it looks like flight global just put out an articel on the F-22 and the fact that Japan is looking at their own designs now.


"We have not decided if we will build a prototype aircraft," says Japan's defence ministry, which confirms that the study started several months ago. "Of course, we are interested in next-generation technology and advanced fighters with stealth capabilities. But we have not decided on how we will get it."
The ministry must formally request funding, possibly for the 2008-9 fiscal year, if it wishes to advance the project, but it would take several years and require significant research and development investment to acquire the technology.
Domestic airframe manufacturers such as Kawasaki Heavy Industries and Mitsubishi Heavy Industries would be involved, although it would be difficult for them to start from scratch without outside help.

Haven't had enough time to really think through the thing since I'm at work right now but it deffently seems like a high goal for japan. A good one mind you for any country its just a matter that is doesn't seem that realistic to me in a gut feeling sorta way.

link: www.flightglobal.com...



posted on Jul, 31 2007 @ 09:47 AM
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How about this article:
defensenews.com...

With so many people against exporting the Raptor, in combination with this article and others, I highly doubt the F-22 will ever be exported. In my opinion, it doesn't need to be either, the F-35 is for that and can take out SU-xx's or Migs just fine. No one really needs the F-22 but the U.S. and even we aren't getting 200 of them.



posted on Jul, 31 2007 @ 10:58 AM
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because the Japanese Zero from WW2 was a great and super fast plane this newly to be designed plane will kick ass and will be better then the F22 , japan leads on technology its much further with nano technology and even that guy with its personal cloak is japanese. I think that this plane will be fast, undetectible and inviceble for the eye and for other systems.



posted on Jul, 31 2007 @ 12:16 PM
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Originally posted by bodrul
sorry for the off topic

but why do people say Israel will buy this and that?
they basicaly get the weapons given to them since they get billions in aid from the US to buy the gear so its more of Israel want to be given not sold


I agree, if the need the Raptors and AIPEC puts enough pressure on congress they will get the raptor at the ultimate discounted price: Free. Sure they will announce a price but its doubtfull it will ever get payed.



posted on Jul, 31 2007 @ 12:25 PM
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Originally posted by MarkLuitzen
because the Japanese Zero from WW2 was a great and super fast plane this newly to be designed plane will kick ass and will be better then the F22 ,


Yes and no. japan has the industrial base to do anything say the US does or the EU. From atomic weapons to stealth aircraft. However as we saw with the F-2 etc its difficult to produce military aircraft from technical and often more importantly budget and political reasons.

According to AWST July 30th's issue on the subject, this "announcement was a deliberate leak from the Japans government. They feel if they build this demonstrator, it would put pressure to get the Raptor. Its a 10 year design and development phase. Very little details are avalible but the engine would be sourced from outside (R&D is way to expensive)

Japan has not helped its case for the Raptor. It has recently come to light that a Japanese naval officer married to a chinese woman may have leaked data about the Aegis system found on some of thier destroyers.



posted on Jul, 31 2007 @ 12:42 PM
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I am so sick of Israel asking for our weapons systems. They don't NEED them, they just WANT them. The F-35 is more than enough to deal with their problems. They just think that they can get anything they want from us, and I, along with many of you, are absolutely tired of it. They better not end up getting the Raptor for any price. It's our best aircraft and we don't need to give it up to anyone as they want us to think. Many of you will think I'm crazy for saying this, but if this deal with the F-22 begins to go through, I will send a long email to all branches of our government saying what a mistake they have made and reasons they do not need it. If any of you also feel very strongly on this issue and would be willing to help me counter their lobby, I would greatly appreciate it.



posted on Jul, 31 2007 @ 01:53 PM
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bdn12, and Westpoint23,

While I don't disagree with you with regard to Israeli 'purchases', I see a huge anomaly with the ban on the export of the F-22.

If F-35 (for instance) can cope with any threat that anyone in the (western) world could possibly be faced with, then I must conclude that F-22 was designed to counter something in the Russian, or Chinese arsenal, which by inference at least, cannot be countered by F-35.

Also, one must conclude for that to be the case, that nobody else, worldwide, could possibly encounter the threat for which F-22 was created.

Therefore, if said system (which F-22 was designed to counter) gets exported, then either...
1. The US is going to pay billions basing the F-22 offshore 24/7 to protect their allies so affected (kind of rent an air force), or
2. F-22 will have to be exported.

There is one other alternative, and that is that there is no such system that cannot be handled by, for instance, F-35. But that would mean that the whole F-22 program was a total waste of time and money, because it was not needed by anyone, the US included.

So please convince me...... what is the threat that F-35 can't handle (the reason for the existence of F-22)..... then explain to me why that specific threat could NEVER be exported by those who have it.... and then why you think F-22 will NEVER be exported, and why legislation is required to make it so.

Sure, the technology is sensitive, but if it's actually needed to counter a specific threat, then hell, it's needed. I don't believe that the US wants, or can afford, to become the air force for every country 24/7 that ultimately encounters that specific threat for the foreseeable future.

The Winged Wombat


[edit on 31/7/07 by The Winged Wombat]



posted on Jul, 31 2007 @ 06:04 PM
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The F-22 is designed for total air superiority. Combining stealth with supercruise is expensive and that's why each one costs about $200 million. Winged Combat, yes, the F-22 is better than the F-35, but it doesn't look like there is going to be a major air war anytime soon and even so, the F-35 is sufficient to take any aircraft. The F-22 was a Cold War program and was designed at a time when we thought the Soviets were going to get much better fighters. But, the Soviet Union fell, so we have a program that is very expensive, but essentially serves no purpose except for that no fighter aircraft really comes close to it in performance or anything else for that matter. If you look at the B-2 program, there are many similarities. It was designed to go through Soviet air defense without being detected, but there wasn't and hasn't been a true need for a stealthy bomber, so we only bought 20 of them. This is the same reason we're only buying 183 F-22's. There is no aircraft that comes near challenging it, so why buy a lot if you can buy many more less capable aircraft (F-35) that can take out enemies just as effectively. I believe that we bought them so there was no doubt that we would have air superiority in the decades to come if another country built a just as capable aircraft (which hasn't happened and won't happen for a LONG time). There is no NEED for Israel, Japan, or Australia to have Raptors. Let's look at potential conflicts. For Israel, the obvious one is Iran. Iran can barely keep it's fighter aircraft flying and if this 250 Flanker deal is true, so what, Israel has advanced F-15's and will soon be getting F-35's, more than enough to deal with Iran. Anyways, the U.S. would no doubt get involved if Iran went to war with Israel. Now Japan. A potential (but highly unlikely) conflict would be with China. Again, their F-15's and winner of the their new fighter contest will be too good for China too handle. China's air force consists mainly of old Migs and a few Flankers. Now, Australia. The only potential conflict is Indonesia, and don't even try to argue that Australia's force as it is now and their future Super Bugs and F-35's won't be good enough to handle Indonesia. I think the main reason these countries want the Raptor is almost just for showing off, and being proud of having the best fighter in the world. Also, Winged Combat, going by your logic, why don't we just make our B-2's, U-2's, Minuteman ICBM's, etc. available for export. Not exporting the F-22 is the same reason we didn't export aircraft like the SR-71 and strategic bombers. Sometimes you just have to keep the best toys for yourself to maintain an edge over anyone and everyone, including strong allies.



posted on Jul, 31 2007 @ 07:31 PM
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OK, fair enough.

F-22 was designed for a cold war scenario with Russia designing better interceptors. But you still went ahead and built it (the USSR collapsed financially in 1990 after all) and spent billions doing it. Ok, so you only bought a few - I'll accept that.

Don't be mistaken into the belief that I think Australia should have the F-22. Like the F-15, it is not an aircraft that was designed to do the jobs that we need done. Remember we are a nation of only 20 million people in a land mass about the same size as the continental USA. So we could never afford the price of these specialized types of aircraft, nor do be have the infrastructure or economy to support large numbers of squadrons of any aircraft types, therefore what we shop for is versatile aircraft which will do a number of different jobs. Perhaps you never get 'the best', but that is the price you pay when it is only countries such as America, Britain, France, etc who can afford to design and build these aircraft, and all three have different range, infrastructure, and performance (read versatility) requirements than we have.

Basically, we can never get exactly what we need, because nobody who can afford to design and build has the same situation that we have. So you can keep your F-22 as far as Australia is concerned, because we cannot afford it, and it is far too specialized for our purpose. So you can cross us off the shopping list - we were never on it.

I don't think that you can directly compare F-22 with the B-2 or the SR-71 as both of the latter types still have a valid role to play, whereas the F-22 now lacks a scenario where it's abilities are essential (once F-35 is up and running).

But eventually, someone will come up with a suitable opponent - the very fact that the F-22 exists is a spur to designing a counter to it. Or, more likely (as has happened in the past), any potential opponent will change the nature of the threat, such that the F-22 won't have a role to play. For example, it didn't matter how good the XB-70 was, the game changed and it became redundant - AND - it didn't get built.

The Winged Wombat



posted on Jul, 31 2007 @ 09:24 PM
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Yes, I agree very much with your points Winged Combat. Australia is of course a very strong ally of the U.S. and they deserve to get advanced weapons like the F-35 from us. The same is true for Japan, Canada, EU countries, and Israel (though I think to a lesser extent as we have to fund so many of our purchases and have betrayed us by giving some of our tech to China). Anyways, while the F-22 isn't really in the same league as aircraft like the B-2 or SR-71, it is still the best at doing its job, which in itself could be considered a reason not to export it. Sadly, the SR-71 is retired now, a move that I and many others think was a big mistake. But, fortunately, some recent reports suggest that a hypersonic successor is in the making or has already been made (Aurora).



posted on Jul, 31 2007 @ 11:12 PM
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Originally posted by MarkLuitzen
because the Japanese Zero from WW2 was a great and super fast plane this newly to be designed plane will kick ass and will be better then the F22


Bold statement considering the USAF has only declassified about 20% of the actual specs on the F22 raptor... honestly now... how would you know any better?


, japan leads on technology


another irrational statement with absolutely no backing... The US accounts for 40% of the worlds spending on R&D (research and development). I think its the other way around.


US R&D spending = $338 billion (2006 statistics.)

EU = $233 billion

China = $136 billion

Japan = $129 billion

Now I know that china is know where near as technologically advanced as japan is (it is catching up though)... However Japan, unlike china, is a 'developed' industrialized nation, like the US.. China is trying to catch up while the US is still trying to maintain its strategic position at #1.





its much further with nano technology


Not true at all.... Japan is a world leader in nanotech, true. But however, it isnt the sole leader, that would be the US. Japan accounts for 24% of the worlds spending on nanotech. the US accounts for 28%. And judging by the sheer amount of patents and applications for nanotech that the US has put in already, dwarfs that of japans. The r&d spending for this sort of tech mixed with this compelling data, is why i say the US is the worlds leader in regards to that technology.

United States: World leader in Nanotechnology
www.nanotechnologydevelopment.com...
So, come again?...


and even that guy with its personal cloak is japanese. I think that this plane will be fast, undetectible and inviceble for the eye and for other systems.


alright.. look. I have no problem with giving out props when it is deserved. Now dont get me wrong. Japan is extremely advanced and does lead in certain areas that the US doesnt, and thats to be expected. its just that when your wrong your wrong. i feel the need to correct such drivel so that, that type of thinking doesnt go mainstream with ppl on here reading it.. Deny ignorance.... dont spout it.
have a nice day.



posted on Aug, 1 2007 @ 08:10 AM
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The US might spend the most but that doesnt mean they discover or develop most things.



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