IRS loses challenge to prove tax liability

Has anyone sent in the "MOTIONS FOR PRELIMINARY INJUNCTION to freeze all IRS assets and to enjoin IRS from depositing any tax collections into any account(s) other than the Treasury of the United States."?

or

"request more information about our historic APPLICATION FOR ORDER DISSOLVING THE INTERNAL REVENUE SERVICE"?

If this is all it would take to get the ball rolling i'm sure that these forms can be massed produced for everyone to get a hold of and fill out.

Reading all this info wasn't bad, but being able to understand all of it will take another couple days. So much is mentioned and backed up by so many court cases and laws or by the Constitution that I can understand why it is hard to get everyone to understand what is going on.

I don't know if you can make a cliff notes version of this, but it might help out the average citizen and help them understand where the money has been going.

Maybe I will try to make this easier to understand but i'm hoping for someone with more experience to step up and make this happen. That is if there is an easy way to explain all this.

This is also going to get sent out on my MySpace account since my friends enjoy the bulletins I post about the stuff I find on this site.

Thank you for posting this info, I learned something new today.

[edit on 2007727 by NJ Mooch]

Originally posted by tyranny22
Another score for the good guys.

Thanks for the update. Now if only we can get Ron Paul elected and scale the government back down to it's intended size.

LOL.........You really think Ron Paul is any different than the other slim that keeps feeding us lies every year? And scale back the government. How about NOT SCALE BACK. How about a reconstruction without the billionaires boy clubs involved. As long as "we" keep pumping money into the system the system keeps growing at a accelerated pace I might add. The draw back is that ALL politicians rely on OUR money to grow their special intrest investments.

Originally posted by tsloan
LOL....

.....You really think Ron Paul is any different than the other slim that keeps feeding us lies every year? And scale back the government. How about NOT SCALE BACK.

How about making the government the size it was intended. Not to govern agriculture, not to govern whether abortion is legal or illegal. These are all state matters, not Federal government's. These are mindless games that politicians have played for years. And if you're for such big government, why don't you go sign up for the army? I hear they're on the pentagon's vacation plan over in Iraq. Nice time of year over there. I'm sure you'll love your big government when you get there and see how nice it is out on the gold course. I bet you'll write home loving that we fincance such a great vacation plan by charging a Federal Income tax.

I don't know if Ron Paul can fix the government or not, but I'm sure as hell not voting for someone (Obama or Clinton) who voted to pass the immigration bill. And face it, all other Republican candidates are millionaire idiots who want to further the policy that wars across the world create revenue for the rich elite. Go join the army, they're waiting to make a buck off of you.

Originally posted by twitchy
One thing that gives me the willies about all this is the fact that once people start figuring out the income tax scam, they might start figuring out other stuff as well like the federal reserve system. Yes of course this knowlege is a good thing, but it seems like it would be similar to trying to jerk a honey jar out of a bears paws. That's one big fat old grouchy bear that isn't going to like it.
The more this becomes public knowlege, the greater the perceived threat is to the establishment, and the establishment is hardly above violence and subversion to perpetuate their own power. It seems to me that any time in western history that a people has figured out and resisted what was really going on with the whole concept of finance, it has gotten ugly for them.

Ahhh but remember my friend....its not a lone child trying to jerk the honey jar out of the bears hands... its rather like Godzilla waking up and realizing it wants it's honey back... the bear is just going to scream in agony...

America : Freedom to Fascism

Originally posted by mecheng
I wonder if the Brown's can use this in any way to help their cause.

To my knowledge, the Browns have exhausted their legal options. They have each been sentenced to 60 months and cannot leave their home. The courts would not allow evidence that could/would prove their innocence, leaving them with the choice of prison or protesting the courts decisions. I commend them for doing what they are doing, which is simply being knowledgeable, questioning and patriotic Americans.

Originally posted by SonicInfinity
I don't understand. If they are unable to provide a law to pay taxes, why are we still paying them? Why hasn't there been a case yet of the scale of "US Peoples vs IRS"?

First Q: I don't. The 16th was ruled on by the Supreme Court which stated that the it gave the government no new powers of taxation. If they didn't have it before, then they don't have it now. One of the problems is the lesser courts which have not followed the Supreme Court ruling.

Second Q: I believe there are and have been, but i'm not sure.

Originally posted by DerekJR321
The argument is that the 16th amendment was never legally ratified. The money you earn from working is not "profit".

Those are separate arguments i believe. There are quite a few more which have been used, some successfully, both in and out of court. For instance, a machinist i know hasn't paid federal income tax for about 14 years. He has studied the tax code and one of the problems is the code that the OMB Control numbers reference. The IRS fools with him no more. Whether the 16th was properly ratified is a point i'm not convinced on, but it appears it wasn't.

Its my understanding that the idea is people do not have to fill out a W-2. The only person responsible for paying taxes are the people who withhold them (ie: the tax agent).

Now of course the problem is, chances are if I go to my employer and tell them "I don't want to fill out a W-2", they will just let me go on the spot.

No, you do not have to sign a W2 and yes, the employer may very well let you go. So now you are left with a decision: If you believe you are not liable to pay federal income tax, do you pay anyway and keep your job, or do what is ethical and either try to educate your employer or find another job? Better yet, maybe you have some skills that would allow you to work for yourself. There are no easy options, even working for yourself, but i'll repeat something that machinist told me because i think it's important: Upon discovering that he wasn't liable to pay, he first made up his mind he would never pay again. Period. Then he dealt with the rest.

Originally posted by ledbedder20
BUT, if income tax was abolished, our government, structured the way it is currently, would collapse.

There's a couple ways of looking at that i suppose However, are you sure it would collapse? Where does the money you pay in federal income tax go?

Originally posted by DrLeary
I agree with angryamerican. Nobody likes taxes, but if we want to live in a society with social security, pension, schools, hospitals, roads etc. etc. we are all going to have to chip in!

Couldn't agree more, but these things are not paid for by the income tax. The IRS is not needed, nor is the Federal Reserve. Why are we paying interest on money loaned to the government, which is backed by nothing, when it is provided by the Constitution that the government can print its own money?

I ask all of you who haven't seen it yet, to watch America : Freedom to Fascism

I posted something indirectly related to this over at Law Above Politics is Established!. Lots of good info linked at that thread.

Originally posted by DerekJR321
Why are we still paying them is the big question. One person doesn't its no big deal. A million people do it, and people will start opening their eyes.

At the thread I linked just above, it contains this link that provides a way to "get all your marbles into the bag" so you too can stop paying taxes on Wages/Salaries/Compensation. A package of legal info & notes (they call it the "Blue Folder" at the website) to help you organize yourself & it's offered for free download--The only disclaimer attached to that package is that they have to keep the legal info up to date whenever there may be any changes in the IRC (Internal Revenue Code). They do not charge any money for the package & have lots of useful info all over the website; They concentrate on educating the public.

Originally posted by DerekJR321
I'm not an expert on this so take what I say with a grain of salt. Its my understanding that the idea is people do not have to fill out a W-2. The only person responsible for paying taxes are the people who withhold them (ie: the tax agent).

Now of course the problem is, chances are if I go to my employer and tell them "I don't want to fill out a W-2", they will just let me go on the spot.

Included in the Blue Folder I just mentioned is a way to keep your employer off the "legal hook" while he stops Withholding for you...Withholding is completely voluntary on your part & all you need to do is provide your employer with your written intent to stop volunteering. Still, I recommend you go to the linked website & read the info so you know what to do & how to do it without breaking any IRC's or laws.

Originally posted by mecheng
I wonder if the Brown's can use this in any way to help their cause.

Well, besides this particular court-ruling that may help Ed & Elaine Brown, there's also another thread here at ATS (Paul Mitchell files notice on US Marshal in the case of Ed and Elaine Brown). The thread talks about how The Supreme Law Firm has delivered a Cease & Desist Order to the US Marshal beseiging the Browns...But for some reason, even though the Order was delivered on June 15, 2007, the Marshal seems to be ignoring it, which means he's risking criminal charges himself.

Originally posted by tyranny22
Thanks for the update. Now if only we can get Ron Paul elected and scale the government back down to it's intended size.

Well, Ron Paul or not, if everybody stopped paying taxes on their labor, Government will have no choice but to reduce its size...
However, I'd have to agree that Dr. Paul has the gumption to speed up that process quite a bit.

Originally posted by SonicInfinity
I don't understand. If they are unable to provide a law to pay taxes, why are we still paying them? Why hasn't there been a case yet of the scale of "US Peoples vs IRS"?

Ever notice how real news never seems to make it to mainstream media? Consider what kind of position the Government would be forced into if the truth ever got onto mainstream news...Think about it for a second & that'll answer your question.
But the news is getting out, regardless; It's just getting out slower but more people are beginning to respond to it.

Originally posted by tyranny22
It will take mass protest and public display of support for abolishment for someone to attempt to take on the IRS or government on a massive scale.

Well, there are people doing that already...Because of the lack of most "mainstream coverage" to actually publish events like this is why there's (so far) too few people actually doing it. But, at least the Washington Post covered the event, even though it wasn't considered by most news outlets to be worth "national" broadcast.

Originally posted by observe50
I believe it was proven that the IRS is not legal.

Ummm...Technically, the IRS is legal but it's a matter of jurisdiction as much as anything else. The IRS is under Congress, which has no authority to enforce any laws within the boundaries of the 50 States; They have enforcement powers only in US Possessions & Territories, along with any official "Federal Zones"--An example of a Federal Zone would be your local Federal Building.
In order to have enforcement powers, the IRS would have to be under the Executive Branch (which they're not) & they would be required to turn over any collected monies directly to the Secretary of the Treasury (which they do not).
Since the IRS is not under the Executive Branch (& don't have the Executive's enforcement Powers), they cannot have any DoJ lawyer act with Power of Attorney on their behalf in a courtroom either!

Originally posted by ledbedder20
BUT, if income tax was abolished, our government, structured the way it is currently, would collapse.

This particular discussion has nothing to do with trying to abolish the Income Tax...It has to do with knowing the legal terms & definitions that have been deliberately misrepresented to the American Public all these years.
Yes, the Government would have to restructure...A corporation would call it "down-sizing" because it would involve making the Government get rid of the Agencies & other groups that have nothing to do with the Government's Constitutional Duties.

Originally posted by tsloan
LOL....

.....You really think Ron Paul is any different than the other slim that keeps feeding us lies every year? And scale back the government.

Actually, Ron Paul is the only candidate who has shown a consistant record in his political career of actually adhering to his Constitutional Oath! All of the other candidates just want bigger Government, more political controls on the People, commit more violations to the Constitution & turn OUR NATION into their Tyranny. You make it sound like that's something you really want; If so, there are plenty of such countries currently existing in the world, so you're free to leave; After all, trying to force you to stay would be in violation of the Rights & Liberties that Americans have.

Originally posted by atomMan
For instance, a machinist i know hasn't paid federal income tax for about 14 years. He has studied the tax code and one of the problems is the code that the OMB Control numbers reference. The IRS fools with him no more. Whether the 16th was properly ratified is a point i'm not convinced on, but it appears it wasn't.

Hmmm...This guy you're talking about wouldn't happen to be this guy, or at least heard of him?
As for the 16th Amendment, I've heard that Congress didn't have a proper Quorum present during voting, but that's a whole 'nother issue. But, I've found out here (look at #6) that the writ of the 16th Amendment has no mention of repealing the Constitutional statements that the Amendment was intended to replace...And the California Supreme Court stated that they do not rule in favor of "repeals by implication."

For whatever reason I couldn't get it to embed...

Here is a youtube video from Tom Cryer himself:

Tom Cryer on YouTube

DocMoreau

Originally posted by DocMoreau
For whatever reason I couldn't get it to embed...

Here is a youtube video from Tom Cryer himself:

Tom Cryer on YouTube

DocMoreau

Here you go!

Originally posted by ledbedder20
This is great! But a ruling form a higher court would really help the cause.

I remember reading that the constitution only supports a tax on income from foreign sources and income being described as profit...such as you being a port owner and having to pay taxes on any profit earned from foreign companies that you do business with. A modern example would be a tax on the profit earned from imported or exported goods or services.

I also believe that income tax was something set up temporarily as a war provision (WW1 or WW2?) but never revoked...could be wrong.

BUT, if income tax was abolished, our government, structured the way it is currently, would collapse. Many, many, many changes/backups/alternative sources of income would have to be put into place. I agree that maybe we would be better off if America wasn't as rich, but as someone stated in an earlier post, it's ognna be pretty hard to get those in power to give it up.

Incorrect.

This is the biggest obstacle to getting people to understand the govt doesnt need income tax revenue.

100% of all income tax revenue collected goes directly to the Federal Reserve for debt payment. Not one single dollar from income taxes pays for civic services. See the Grace Commission report for proof.

I see this as the biggest issue we face. Folks who might believe that taxes on their personal labor are illegal will still think its necessary because they wrongly assume its used for civic services.

Originally posted by angryamerican
I like most other people in the US would like to keep my hard earned money in my pocket, there is A but.
The but is if I do that then can I cant bitch when a foreign nation sets there sights on taking over? and the army doesnt lift a finger because there is'nt and army. I Cant bitch when my house is burning down and the firemen don't come.
When that neighbor hood thug steals what Is mine. Ive kept my tax money and not paid the police to get my stuff back. So think about this. If you don't pay taxes don't use the public services. its simple and basic. Taxes fund our Right to pursue happiness. Delude your self if you like but the facts are the facts.

again another person who wrongly assumes income tax revenue pays for civic services.

fire fighters - state tax and property tax pays for this

military - revenue comes from corporate tax collected.

schools - property taxes

etc etc etc

income tax revenue goes straight into the hands of the owners of the federal reserve bank.

Originally posted by DrLeary

Originally posted by angryamerican
So think about this. If you don't pay taxes don't use the public services. its simple and basic. Taxes fund our Right to pursue happiness. Delude your self if you like but the facts are the facts.

I agree with angryamerican. Nobody likes taxes, but if we want to live in a society with social security, pension, schools, hospitals, roads etc. etc. we are all going to have to chip in! This is the concept of socialist democracy. You put a little into the pool, and when the time comes that you need help there will be resources in the pool to draw from.

The problem as I see it is the ever increasing individualism and privatization of just about every state institution. The way the US wants global economy to work is by eliminating any state control and put everyting on the so called "free market". This works well for the rich who can afford to buy all the services they need, but for the poor - and increasingly for the average joe - the cost will be too great.

You have this problem already: If you get hurt and end up in hospital and don't have medical insurance they can send you away without treatment. There is no safetynet in this kind of capitalism. If you can't afford to pay ever increasing prices for services that should have been guaranteed to you by the state, you become the loser and you are on your own. There is no "economical gain" in helping the unfortunate in this kind of system...

So I think it would be better to change how the money from taxes are used, rather than trying to abolish them alltogether.


Edit: Man that was some lousy spelling! Corrected some of it...

[edit on 27-7-2007 by DrLeary]

yet another sigh...

once again, income tax does NOT pay for those civic services. we had those services prior to 1913 and we also had ZERO debt.

Think folks

look here for a good foundation on this subject...

www.wethepeoplefoundation.org...

We the People foundation have been involved in several lawsuits with the federal govt for years now.

And here's some info on the Grace Commission report...

www.freecanadian.net...

It doesnt surprise me that folks mistake income tax revenue for paying for civic services. My own mother, a CPA thought that income tax revenue paid fr govt services. After I showed her the Grace Commission report, she dug deeper and confirmed that in fact income tax revenue pays for nothing (except the nat debt)

The govt has numerous other means of gathering revenue...tarrifs, corporate profits, and americans in DC, and other territories outside the USA are liable for income taxes.

The money we currently pay for income tax is tatamount to robbery. The Rothschilds, Rockefellers and the other families who own the Federal Reserve have simply found a clever way to steal our money.